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 Post subject: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:21 am 
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http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/24005878/antonio-brown-30-next-nfl-most-prolific-receiver

AB turns 30 this summer. Here's how he stacks up against the WR GOAT. Pretty damn impressive.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:40 am 
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Never forget who has thrown the football to AB his entire career.

And Rice had Montana/Young.


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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:38 am 
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I love AB. He needs a ring to lay any claim to GOAT. In fact, just talking Steelers, I take Swann. Stallworth and Ward over him as Steelers' GOAT WR. You've got to come up big in the biggest situations like the aforementioned. Swann MVP X. Ward MVP XL. Stallworth should have been MVP XIV. AB hasn't come up big like that yet.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:13 pm 
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Obviously wrote:
You've got to come up big in the biggest situations like the aforementioned. Swann MVP X. Ward MVP XL. Stallworth should have been MVP XIV. AB hasn't come up big like that yet.


Ummm, what?!?

Excluding his rookie year, AB has averaged 6.5 catches and 106 yards per playoff game and has consistently been the guy that has come through when most of the players around him haven't.

JAX last year was a fantastic example of that. He had 132 yards and 2 TDs despite playing hurt and against one of the best corners in the game (who had safety help, to boot). Every time JAX would seem to do something to pull away, AB was right there with another big play to get us back in it.

If you're trying to say AB isn't better than those guys specifically because he hasn't made those plays in a Super Bowl, then I'm going to counter by saying that's some insane yinzer criteria specifically meant to protect the legacy of a bunch of retired guys you're afraid of somehow tarnishing.

Cause I look at what AB has done, especially in the playoffs, and think he's met and surpassed all of those guys. He's made huge plays when needed and always seems to come through when needed. Just because those plays haven't happened in a Super Bowl means jack squat, considering you can't possibly put him at fault for that.


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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:22 pm 
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What Swann and Stallworth accomplished post season > than what Ab has accomplished post season. You can add Holmes to that list and arguably Ward too.

I'm not saying it's AB's fault. A lot of what happens in sports is about opportunity.


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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:34 pm 
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Well, AB is no Marvin Harrison (I think he's the HOFer who's numbers fell off a cliff in the post-season....although some of that might be who was throwing him the ball :lol: ).

But, seriously, AB's numbers have been pretty damn good in the playoffs. Most people's number go down at least a little because the defenses are better and the gameplanning more specific....but his numbers hold pretty constant from the regular season.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:42 pm 
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Rice's numbers are amazing, partly because he kept doing it into his later 30's. He was also a notoriously hard worker to stay in NFL shape well beyond an age most guys have retired.

That TD mark might be untouchable. AB has an outside shot at catching him in Yards and Receptions, if he can stay healthy and defy father time.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:06 pm 
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Louis Lipps Service wrote:
Obviously wrote:
You've got to come up big in the biggest situations like the aforementioned. Swann MVP X. Ward MVP XL. Stallworth should have been MVP XIV. AB hasn't come up big like that yet.


Ummm, what?!?

Excluding his rookie year, AB has averaged 6.5 catches and 106 yards per playoff game and has consistently been the guy that has come through when most of the players around him haven't.

JAX last year was a fantastic example of that. He had 132 yards and 2 TDs despite playing hurt and against one of the best corners in the game (who had safety help, to boot). Every time JAX would seem to do something to pull away, AB was right there with another big play to get us back in it.

If you're trying to say AB isn't better than those guys specifically because he hasn't made those plays in a Super Bowl, then I'm going to counter by saying that's some insane yinzer criteria specifically meant to protect the legacy of a bunch of retired guys you're afraid of somehow tarnishing.

Cause I look at what AB has done, especially in the playoffs, and think he's met and surpassed all of those guys. He's made huge plays when needed and always seems to come through when needed. Just because those plays haven't happened in a Super Bowl means jack squat, considering you can't possibly put him at fault for that.


Not a yinzer, but nice try slapping your labels on me.

And just to spoil your misconceptions about me, I'd love nothing more than for AB to surpass the three guys I mentioned. Just like I would love for Tomlin to be the best head coach in Steelers history.

Havoc is spot on with his post.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:08 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
Rice's numbers are amazing, partly because he kept doing it into his later 30's. He was also a notoriously hard worker to stay in NFL shape well beyond an age most guys have retired.

That TD mark might be untouchable. AB has an outside shot at catching him in Yards and Receptions, if he can stay healthy and defy father time.


In terms of TDs, AB is never going to sniff Rice's numbers. Way too behind the curve, there.

I blame Ben! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:26 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Kodiak wrote:
Rice's numbers are amazing, partly because he kept doing it into his later 30's. He was also a notoriously hard worker to stay in NFL shape well beyond an age most guys have retired.

That TD mark might be untouchable. AB has an outside shot at catching him in Yards and Receptions, if he can stay healthy and defy father time.


In terms of TDs, AB is never going to sniff Rice's numbers. Way too behind the curve, there.

I blame Ben! :lol:


We certainly can't blame Tomlin because we know he puts game outcomes at risk so AB can keep personal records going.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:59 pm 
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Havoc wrote:
Never forget who has thrown the football to AB his entire career.

And Rice had Montana/Young.


Obviously wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
In terms of TDs, AB is never going to sniff Rice's numbers. Way too behind the curve, there.

I blame Ben! :lol:


We certainly can't blame Tomlin because we know he puts game outcomes at risk so AB can keep personal records going.


Is it interesting that Montana only had 273 career TDs, Young 232. Ben is sitting at 329. And yet by 30, Rice was already way ahead of where AB is at in terms of TDs. I don't know if Montana and Young eye-fucked Rice every time they entered the red zone or what or whether Ben spreads it around a lot more, but Rice was a friggin' TD machine.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:25 pm 
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Talent and skill. AB blows the 70s Steelers WRs out of the water. Can you honestly say you'd "take Swann and Stallworth" over AB if you were playing pickup football and were trying to field the best team?

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:12 pm 
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R S wrote:
Talent and skill. AB blows the 70s Steelers WRs out of the water. Can you honestly say you'd "take Swann and Stallworth" over AB if you were playing pickup football and were trying to field the best team?


Swann was a spectacular athlete. I remember the old 70's superstars competition obstacle course... Swann beat everyone. Same level of hand eye coordination and body control as AB.

There is a reason guys are lightening quick... they are small.

Stallworth 6'2"

Jerry Rice 6'2"

Height might have a lot to do with AB so far behind Rice in TD's.

Today's game is perfect for AB's skillset (at least between the 20's). The middle of the field is wide open. Not so in the 70's. Different game in the 70's and results for AB would have been different.


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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:23 pm 
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Yeah, I agree with Havoc, it is difficult to compare WRs from different eras. Who is to say that Swann would not be a beast in today's modern game? And who is to say Brown would be a beast in say 1975 when an NFL CB could beat the shit out of you, put his hands on you more, bump you all the way down the field?

Remember that Seattle game a couple years back? Wheaton had that monster game, 200 yards etc, but the WR that was not doing so well was Brown and wasn't he matched up for the most part with Richard Sherman? AB had 6 catches for 51 yards that day. Faced with playing against physical, talented CBs in the 70s may not bode well for Brown. I know Swann did it without a doubt and I have to think he would be incredible in this pussified NFL where the offense and the WRs are given so much lattitude and protection.

I do tend to agree with some who think that AB hasn't done enough in the post season. We have had many, many games in AB's playoff tenure where the offense is not scoring enough points. Also, you look at some of the other WRs that were also punt returners, where is AB's production compared to them? Randle El had a punt return for a TD in the playoffs, Holmes had a punt return for a TD in the playoffs, what has Brown done as a punt returner? Jack Squat!! His longest punt return in the playoffs is just 12 yards and his return average is 4.8. :roll:

No, he is not Marvin Harrison bad in the playoffs, but he also hasn't risen to the same level where it seems like he is putting the team on his back and propelling them to the Super Bowl either. I am a tad disappointed.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:30 pm 
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AB is only 36 TD's away from a similar career at this point. Might as well be a hundred.... :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:54 pm 
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R S wrote:
Talent and skill. AB blows the 70s Steelers WRs out of the water. Can you honestly say you'd "take Swann and Stallworth" over AB if you were playing pickup football and were trying to field the best team?


Apparently, you are either too young or have a faulty memory as to how great Swann and Stallworth were. They were monsters in the playoffs and Super Bowl. Monsters. AB's numbers are better in a league that totally favors the offense now. Havoc and Scunge have articulated that better than I can.

AB has come up big in the playoffs and has made spectacular catches, but not enough to get the Steelers that elusive SB ring since he's been here. Not all his fault for sure, but he sure disappeared against New England in the '16 AFCCG. Who knows, maybe they keyed on him because of that idiotic Facebook Live video.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:59 pm 
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Scunge wrote:
Yeah, I agree with Havoc, it is difficult to compare WRs from different eras. Who is to say that Swann would not be a beast in today's modern game? And who is to say Brown would be a beast in say 1975 when an NFL CB could beat the shit out of you, put his hands on you more, bump you all the way down the field?

Remember that Seattle game a couple years back? Wheaton had that monster game, 200 yards etc, but the WR that was not doing so well was Brown and wasn't he matched up for the most part with Richard Sherman? AB had 6 catches for 51 yards that day. Faced with playing against physical, talented CBs in the 70s may not bode well for Brown. I know Swann did it without a doubt and I have to think he would be incredible in this pussified NFL where the offense and the WRs are given so much lattitude and protection.

I do tend to agree with some who think that AB hasn't done enough in the post season. We have had many, many games in AB's playoff tenure where the offense is not scoring enough points. Also, you look at some of the other WRs that were also punt returners, where is AB's production compared to them? Randle El had a punt return for a TD in the playoffs, Holmes had a punt return for a TD in the playoffs, what has Brown done as a punt returner? Jack Squat!! His longest punt return in the playoffs is just 12 yards and his return average is 4.8. :roll:

No, he is not Marvin Harrison bad in the playoffs, but he also hasn't risen to the same level where it seems like he is putting the team on his back and propelling them to the Super Bowl either. I am a tad disappointed.

Scoring differential in this case, I think has a lot to do with the skill of the play designer, play caller, and in-game adjustments between series. Think about who Jerry Rice was working with and think about the majority of AB's career being in an offense where most red zone opportunities were RPOs or audibles where it was not unusual to see AB be the only route. They weren't exactly scheming him open for the past few years, and I think his relative lack of RZ scores is party about that.

I looked at every incompletion Ben threw in first half of last year, where the play started at the opponent's 25 or better. There were 25 incompletions in that span.

CLE
1. WR screen covered
2. Bell and Bryant ran same route/ran into each other... no one open
3. WR screen drop by JuJu
4. PA pass. 7 kept in to block. no one open, Ben misses tough throw while on dead run to the right sideline
5. Ben's throw a little high, Rogers probably should have caught it but was late getting his arms up
CHI
6. PA to JJ. Ben locked on 1st read, AB's man fell down just as Ben released to a double-covered JJ
7. JuJu open for an instant but wise throwaway at last second when backside safety jumps route
8. Bryant stops on route into EZ
9. No one open throwaway on 1st down
10. Bell drop
11. good coverage+slightly late throw+Bryant poor route = incompletion
BAL
12. AB drop
13. throwaway on 1st down... no one open
JAX
14. batted down by edge rusher behind Ben's arm
15. throwaway under pressure to avoid sack on 3rd down in FG range
16. (:11 sec in half) uncalled DPI vs AB
17. WR screen... Ben had no laces on the throw (caught snap & threw in one motion), lost grip incomplete
18. forced to AB on 3rd down... no one open. Put it at rear corner of EZ--my guy or no guy throw
KC
19. one man route off audible (AB). Not open, throwaway on 1st down
20. blatant DPI uncalled vs Bell
CIN
21. AB covered in L EZ, Ben rolls R to extend play, throws to quintuple-covered AB... no one open
22. (:16 in half) drop by Vance McDonald on a challenging but catchable ball
DET
23. blown up RB screen on 1st down. no chance.
24. clean drop by Rogers
25. Hunter ran OOB on route while Ben was looking off safety to other side

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:27 pm 
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draw your own conclusions, but damn we ran a lot of screens in the red zone. Those listed are just the ones that DIDN'T work.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:04 am 
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Different eras, yes. Rice TD% is insane those years. AB would have more with a better OC - remember, SF was changing the game back then.

Rice's TD record won't be broken for a long, long time...if ever.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:49 am 
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Havoc wrote:
What Swann and Stallworth accomplished post season > than what Ab has accomplished post season. You can add Holmes to that list and arguably Ward too.

I'm not saying it's AB's fault. A lot of what happens in sports is about opportunity.

Winning post season is also about whether the rest of the team comes up big.


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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:02 am 
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I'm a big believer in the difference between rs and ps competition in football, basketball, and baseball.

In all 3 sports, ps is like being in a higher league. Not all rs skillsets apply equally.

Swann was a leaper. Could jump out of the gym. I remember him jumping over the high jump bar like a hurdler landing on his feet while other guys in the competition I previously mentioned could not do that.

AB has better in space quickness than Swann. AB dominates in today's game between the 20's.

Ben's game winner to Holmes in SB43... remember how tight that window was? Replace Holmes with AB and that window is the same. Replace Holmes with Swann and that windows gets bigger due to Swann's superior leaping ability.

In today's game, I might take AB over Swann between the 20's. I might take Swann over AB in the RZ.

If I were starting a team, I might choose players with the RZ in mind. It's so important.

AB, as great as he is... is not the perfect wr. There is an advantage to having a 6'2" Stallworth being able to reach up and snatch the football out of the air Moss-like. There is an advantage to Swann's leaping ability to go up and get it for you.

So no, as great as AB is, it's not cut and dried. PS comparison to Swann, Stalls, Holmes, Ward... AB hasn't done that much (yet)

Jack Nicklaus to reporters who were already crowning a still young Tiger Woods who at that point wasn't even sniffing Jack's record of 18 majors...

"Doesn't he have to do it first?".


Last edited by Havoc on Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:04 am 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
draw your own conclusions, but damn we ran a lot of screens in the red zone. Those listed are just the ones that DIDN'T work.


I've said it many times over the last 3-4-5 years.

One of the reasons the Steelers are not as successful in scoring more TD's than FG's is.....

The Steelers too often, run plays to get closer to the endzone, rather than plays to get into the endzone.

- I dread the first and goal at the 9 or 10, knowing 1st down is very likely a run or WR screen to get closer to the endzone,
when in fact 1st and goal at the 9 or 10 will provide the most space for offensive weapons and the larger passing lanes for Ben.

- I watch too much football of other teams to understand, that far less talented teams, offenses, players,.............score easy TD's thru scheme, deception and simply fooling the defense when they are inside the 5.
- Players breaking free and wide open in the endzone, play action, heavy set - play action.
- QB roll out to extend play, get defenders moving, or moving in the wrong direction.

The PS do not do much of that.
Its too much of heavy set runs into a run play.
Or 4-5 wide pass sets......with a pass play.
Way too predictable.

Hoping Fitchner and Ben can improve on scoring 7's and less 3's in 2018

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:05 am 
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Nick79 wrote:
Havoc wrote:
What Swann and Stallworth accomplished post season > than what Ab has accomplished post season. You can add Holmes to that list and arguably Ward too.

I'm not saying it's AB's fault. A lot of what happens in sports is about opportunity.

Winning post season is also about whether the rest of the team comes up big.


I don't know why this point gets lost on people. It's a team game. A hell of a lot goes into winning or losing a football game. We literally won a SB where our QB completed 9 passes to our guys and threw two INTs to the other guys. Drew Brees lost a playoff game completing 39 passes for over 400 yards with no turnovers and scoring 36 points.

We won 1 playoff game with Bruce Arians where the D or STs didn't score a TD. The one game where we didn't have a D or STs TD was the Baltimore game in '11 where the D created three consecutive turnovers in the third quarter, all on Baltimore's side of the field, leading to scoring drives of 23, 25, and 6 yards for 17 points and the offense that day had 263 yards total. That also happened to be AB's first playoff game, a game where he caught the essential go-ahead score with a 58 yard catch on third and forever to set us up for a TD. A game that very well could have gone to OT or perhaps a Baltimore win if Anquan Boldin doesn't drop a TD catch on third down and Baltimore settles for a FG late, or if Houshmandzadeh doesn't drop a pass on 4th down that would have put them at our 35 yard line on their last drive.

Team game fellas. Brown has over 100 yards receiving in 5 of his last 6 playoff games and 4 TDs in those 6 games. He's doing his part.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:14 am 
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TB wrote:
Nick79 wrote:
Havoc wrote:
What Swann and Stallworth accomplished post season > than what Ab has accomplished post season. You can add Holmes to that list and arguably Ward too.

I'm not saying it's AB's fault. A lot of what happens in sports is about opportunity.

Winning post season is also about whether the rest of the team comes up big.


I don't know why this point gets lost on people. It's a team game. A hell of a lot goes into winning or losing a football game. We literally won a SB where our QB completed 9 passes to our guys and threw two INTs to the other guys. Drew Brees lost a playoff game completing 39 passes for over 400 yards with no turnovers and scoring 36 points.

We won 1 playoff game with Bruce Arians where the D or STs didn't score a TD. The one game where we didn't have a D or STs TD was the Baltimore game in '11 where the D created three consecutive turnovers in the third quarter, all on Baltimore's side of the field, leading to scoring drives of 23, 25, and 6 yards for 17 points and the offense that day had 263 yards total. That also happened to be AB's first playoff game, a game where he caught the essential go-ahead score with a 58 yard catch on third and forever to set us up for a TD. A game that very well could have gone to OT or perhaps a Baltimore win if Anquan Boldin doesn't drop a TD catch on third down and Baltimore settles for a FG late, or if Houshmandzadeh doesn't drop a pass on 4th down that would have put them at our 35 yard line on their last drive.

Team game fellas. Brown has over 100 yards receiving in 5 of his last 6 playoff games and 4 TDs in those 6 games. He's doing his part.


Read the bolded.


Last edited by Havoc on Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:21 pm 
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Stosh-67 wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
draw your own conclusions, but damn we ran a lot of screens in the red zone. Those listed are just the ones that DIDN'T work.


I've said it many times over the last 3-4-5 years.

One of the reasons the Steelers are not as successful in scoring more TD's than FG's is.....

The Steelers too often, run plays to get closer to the endzone, rather than plays to get into the endzone.

- I dread the first and goal at the 9 or 10, knowing 1st down is very likely a run or WR screen to get closer to the endzone,
when in fact 1st and goal at the 9 or 10 will provide the most space for offensive weapons and the larger passing lanes for Ben.

- I watch too much football of other teams to understand, that far less talented teams, offenses, players,.............score easy TD's thru scheme, deception and simply fooling the defense when they are inside the 5.
- Players breaking free and wide open in the endzone, play action, heavy set - play action.
- QB roll out to extend play, get defenders moving, or moving in the wrong direction.

The PS do not do much of that.
Its too much of heavy set runs into a run play.
Or 4-5 wide pass sets......with a pass play.
Way too predictable.

Hoping Fitchner and Ben can improve on scoring 7's and less 3's in 2018

I think a lot has to do with personnel sent into the game to force play calls. By that I mean, having reviewed all those red zone plays, it's apparent that a lot of the incompletions were run play calls with heavy personnel formations sent in... when the defense sent its heavy people and crowded the box, we audibled into fairly simplistic pass play calls, which either succeeded or failed based on the matchups.

Is it the guy audibilizing who is the problem? Or the original play call? Or the personnel sent in? Or the mindset of getting closer, rather than trying to score? Or the fact that the audibles are overly simple?

There were occasions where a guy was schemed open, and it was like magic (unless they dropped the wide open pass... at least twice in the first 8 games). Eli Rogers ran slants, crossing routes and sit-down curls all season; when he ran a diamond (slant in, then slant out) he was so wide open that it was embarrassing. Same thing when Martavis ran a DIG route last year, after running maybe one before that in his entire Steelers career. Think it was vs Detroit and the defender was so shocked that he basically fell down in disbelief.

Predictability was a big issue last couple of years.

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