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 Post subject: Re: Jaylen Samuels TE/FB/WR 5th RND 165th overall
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 8:35 am 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
I guess because everyone is about to start running the ball at these package defenses.

All the more reason to have a bigger back, though... and those four really good big backs didn't go in first two days of the draft.


Gotta figure that's a motivating factor in the way backs are getting selected, but as for the bigger backs in later rounds, I'm not so sure. Could be teams looking for higher profile production? Maybe "big" to them is 220? I liked what I was able to find of Warren after you brought him up, so I'm grasping at straws a little to explain.


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 Post subject: Re: Jaylen Samuels TE/FB/WR 5th RND 165th overall
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 2:13 pm 
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Maybe this is covered elsewhere. But can Samuels block? That seems pretty important for a FB/TE, especially if he is integral to the passing game. Also, very much a valued skill for Steeler skill players (except quarterbacks…although I think Ben threw a key block in the Seattle Superbowl win (right?)?

Not saying, just asking.


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 Post subject: Re: Jaylen Samuels TE/FB/WR 5th RND 165th overall
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 2:17 pm 
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Also probably the major piece that holds rookie RB back from getting carries their first year. Was part of Conner's issue, if I recall correctly.


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 Post subject: Re: Jaylen Samuels TE/FB/WR 5th RND 165th overall
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 8:53 pm 
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Samuels didn't block a lot, because he was their leading receiver.

But, also, there is no way he is a TE/FB in the NFL.

He did okay blocking but rarely did so from the backfield, that I saw.

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 Post subject: Re: Jaylen Samuels TE/FB/WR 5th RND 165th overall
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:06 pm 
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Quote:
But if the team’s recently completed minicamp is any indication that versatility will continue in the NFL.

“They have me playing a lot of different positions,” said Samuels. “Right now they have me in the backfield, running the ball as well. Also in the slot, moving around. Playing outside receiver. Pretty much what I was doing in college..."


https://www.steelers.com/news/versatility-is-a-key-for-samuels


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 Post subject: Re: Jaylen Samuels TE/FB/WR 5th RND 165th overall
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 1:55 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Samuels didn't block a lot, because he was their leading receiver.

But, also, there is no way he is a TE/FB in the NFL.

He did okay blocking but rarely did so from the backfield, that I saw.


Thanks. And I agree he’s not probably a TE. Gonna be fun to see what he IS though.


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 Post subject: Re: Jaylen Samuels TE/FB/WR 5th RND 165th overall
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 2:46 pm 
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Might have been covered (probably was), but why was this guy a 5th rounder? Jack of all trades, master of none kind of situation? At a devalued position? Or he doesn't have a true position at all?


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 Post subject: Re: Jaylen Samuels TE/FB/WR 5th RND 165th overall
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 2:57 pm 
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Louis Lipps Service wrote:
Jobus Rum wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
BTW, Jalen Samuels finished as the leading receiver in the history of NC State Football... passing Torry Holt and Jerrico Cotchery.

:shock:



I wonder how many times a week IC wakes up in a cold sweat yelling "COOOOOTCH!!!!" at the top of his lungs...


Probably the same number of times that Limas Sweed wakes up wondering why he isn't employed in the NFL.

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 Post subject: Re: Jaylen Samuels TE/FB/WR 5th RND 165th overall
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 3:39 pm 
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Samuels will reveal himself when the games begin, preseason, etc.

In terms of whether he can play TE, why not? It depends on what your definition of TE is and how Fitchner may use the TEs. For example, there are many different types of TEs.

Yeah, Samuels at 6'0 225 pounds does not look like a Vance McDonald or Jesse James or Gronk, etc.

But what about teams that have used players that are smaller? There are always these smaller TEs or tweeners that scouts question how they will fit into the NFL.

Aaron Hernandez was 6'2" 245, ran a 4.65, he had 175 catches and 18 TDs in his 3 year NFL career before going to jail.

Washington's Jordan Reed was 6'2" 235, ran a 4.72 at the combine. He has put on probably 10 pounds, up around 245 I would guess now. He is an interesting comparison to Jaylen because Reed actually played some RB while at Florida his freshman year, but he also played some at QB, at TE, etc. He has 275 catches and 22 TDs in his first 5 years and has made the Pro Bowl.

Neither one of them is/was known for their blocking prowess.

Miami drafted Charles Clay and if you read the scouting report on him it sounds just like Samuel. They questioned if he had a position, he was a pass catching fullback in a spead offense and they did not know if he could be a lead blocker as a fullback, or be athletic enough to be a TE. He was 6'3 245 at the combine and ran a 4.73. Again, he has put on weight since then and is probably around 250-255. He has had 318 catches and 23 TD in his 7 year NFL career.

The Jets Quincy Enunwa goes 6'2" 225. Is he a WR? A slot WR? A TE? All of the above? When he was coming out there were many scouts that thought he would ultimately end up as an H-back and that is exactly what the JETs started to do with him. His 2017 season was derailed by injury but in 2015-2016 he had a combined 80 catches for 1,100 yards.

Samuels has weighed as much as 235-238 from what I have read and has slimmed down, he is shorter than most of these players that I have listed. He does not have their length and frame to add weight. But, he is arguably more athletic, that 4.54 40, 34.5 vertical and 6.93 3 cone time is impressive. If we had drafted an ILB that put up those numbers people would be freaking out. The thing is there are very few ILBs that can put up those numbers and even a lot of safeties that would be hard pressed to do so.

What he ends up being is yet to be determined but when I look at Hernandez, Reed, Clay and Enunwa and how scouts and GMs were concerned about how they would fit, well, it makes me feel pretty good about Jaylen's chances of carving out a role for himself in the NFL. It simply is not so cut and dried anymore. Many of the stereotypical cookie cutter descriptions and ultimately limitations we use for a TE, or a RB, or an ILB or S just do not matter much anymore.

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 Post subject: Re: Jaylen Samuels TE/FB/WR 5th RND 165th overall
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 5:29 pm 
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having watched him a lot, I think he's obviously a RB who can be a great receiver. He runs the stretch play as a one cut runner not just passably well... he runs it REALLY well. Then you see what he can do in the receiving game and on the occasional jet sweep. He's just a football player who could succeed anywhere, but I hope he's the RB of our future, because you can do anything with him.

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 Post subject: Re: Jaylen Samuels TE/FB/WR 5th RND 165th overall
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 1:35 pm 
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Let us continue the Samuels love fest!!

One of the things that I see being written and discussed by the media, etc, is how will Samuels see any playing time? How could the Steelers ever take Bell off the field for Samuels?

Well, I for one can step back and admit that Bell has not been the same dangerous pass catcher that he was earlier in his career. The past two seasons he has averaged just 7.9 yards a catch, and last season it was just 7.7 yards per catch.

You contrast that with his first two years in the NFL, before the knee injuries, he averaged 9.8 yards per catch, and in 2014, he averaged 10.3 yards a catch.

Big deal people will say, what is a two yard difference? Well, in 2014 when he was averaging 10.3 yards a catch, he had 10 catches over 20+ yards and 3 catches over 40+ yards, and had 41 first downs on 83 catches.

This past year he had just 5 catches over 20+ yards and just one catch over 40+ yards and had just 31 first downs on 85 catches. He is becoming less effective, less explosive.

Teams are becoming better at defending him and limiting the big plays. I see no reason why we can't get both Bell and Samuels on the field at the same time but I also see no reason why Samuels can't become the #2 RB and rotate in and give Bell some rest. One thing that concerns me about Bell is that he appears to be getting slower and slower. When James Conner got on the field and was given some run plays that were outside the tackles I was amazed at how he was able to turn the corner and pick up some double digit run plays. Now imagine if you have Samuels who runs a 4.54 and is in some of those situations? Some of these 7 or 8 yard pass plays to Bell could very well end up being 20 yards with Samuels. If I had to guess I would say Bell might be lucky to run a 4.65 at this point. Yeah, yeah, quickness and all that but once the ball is in your hands after the catch, the long speed to pull away and gain yardage is what matters most. Samuels can come in for Bell and give us back some of that homerun capability that has been missing.

The way I look at it, or imagine it, is Jaylin taking some snaps from Bell, taking some snaps from Nix, taking some snaps from say Jesse James, taking some snaps as the slot WR, etc.

I think it would make the team more dangerous if Bell did take less carries and catches. Spread the ball around more, if Jaylin can come in and be that #2 RB and line up and be used in a variety of roles it will make the offense better. Why can't Jaylin have say 5-6 carries a game, rush for over 400 yards and also have 40 catches for another 400 yards receiving? He might even be able to have some kick returns and end up with over 1,000 all purpose yard and score maybe 7-8 TDs?

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 Post subject: Re: Jaylen Samuels TE/FB/WR 5th RND 165th overall
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 2:08 pm 
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Scunge wrote:
Let us continue the Samuels love fest!!

One of the things that I see being written and discussed by the media, etc, is how will Samuels see any playing time? How could the Steelers ever take Bell off the field for Samuels?

Well, I for one can step back and admit that Bell has not been the same dangerous pass catcher that he was earlier in his career. The past two seasons he has averaged just 7.9 yards a catch, and last season it was just 7.7 yards per catch.

You contrast that with his first two years in the NFL, before the knee injuries, he averaged 9.8 yards per catch, and in 2014, he averaged 10.3 yards a catch.

Big deal people will say, what is a two yard difference? Well, in 2014 when he was averaging 10.3 yards a catch, he had 10 catches over 20+ yards and 3 catches over 40+ yards, and had 41 first downs on 83 catches.

This past year he had just 5 catches over 20+ yards and just one catch over 40+ yards and had just 31 first downs on 85 catches. He is becoming less effective, less explosive.

Teams are becoming better at defending him and limiting the big plays. I see no reason why we can't get both Bell and Samuels on the field at the same time but I also see no reason why Samuels can't become the #2 RB and rotate in and give Bell some rest. One thing that concerns me about Bell is that he appears to be getting slower and slower. When James Conner got on the field and was given some run plays that were outside the tackles I was amazed at how he was able to turn the corner and pick up some double digit run plays. Now imagine if you have Samuels who runs a 4.54 and is in some of those situations? Some of these 7 or 8 yard pass plays to Bell could very well end up being 20 yards with Samuels. If I had to guess I would say Bell might be lucky to run a 4.65 at this point. Yeah, yeah, quickness and all that but once the ball is in your hands after the catch, the long speed to pull away and gain yardage is what matters most. Samuels can come in for Bell and give us back some of that homerun capability that has been missing.

The way I look at it, or imagine it, is Jaylin taking some snaps from Bell, taking some snaps from Nix, taking some snaps from say Jesse James, taking some snaps as the slot WR, etc.

I think it would make the team more dangerous if Bell did take less carries and catches. Spread the ball around more, if Jaylin can come in and be that #2 RB and line up and be used in a variety of roles it will make the offense better. Why can't Jaylin have say 5-6 carries a game, rush for over 400 yards and also have 40 catches for another 400 yards receiving? He might even be able to have some kick returns and end up with over 1,000 all purpose yard and score maybe 7-8 TDs?

Hmmm...sounds great, but not going to happen. Samuels could take a few snaps away from James, and one or two from Nix, but he ain’t sniffing Bells workload. A2 is going to be paying ole Lev 14 and a half mill for his last rodeo in the black and gold. Barring injury, Tomlin will be running the wheels off, then some.
Of course, Samuels hasn’t even made the team yet...

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 Post subject: Re: Jaylen Samuels TE/FB/WR 5th RND 165th overall
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 4:19 pm 
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Just for arguments sake, take the 2017 season and discount the last game that Bell was rested.

How many snaps did the other RBs have in those 15 games when Bell was starting?

You take Fitz, Conner, Watson and Ridley and they combined for 93 offensive snaps, which, yeah, may not seem like much but that averages out to over 6 snaps per game.

Conner had 68 snaps in 14 games. He may very well have seen more playing time if he wasn't such a bad pass protector and not much of a weapon in the passing game. Samuels is a great weapon in the passing game and will probably prove to be a more reliable pass protector.

I think the Steelers had a plan to get Conner more involved in spelling Bell but it just did not work out because of Conners issues in pass protection and him getting injured. Also with Conner coming back from injury I don't really think it is a forgone conclusion that he is the #2 RB. I think with a great preseason Jaylin can put a stranglehold on that #2 RB spot and see quite a bit of playing time.

Last season the Steeler RBs, not counting Nix at fullback, accounted for almost 1,100 offensive snaps.

So, this season, say we are working with that same 1,100 offensive snaps for your #1 and #2 RBs. Is it really out of the question to think that the Steelers, now with a quality #2 in Samuels, won't take some of the load off of Bell? Say 800 offensive snaps for Bell and 300 snaps for Samuels? Or 850/250? Bell's last two playoff games, both losses, Bell averaged 3.3 yard per carry against NE and 4.1 yards per carry against Jax. He has a hard time finishing strong when we need him the most, having a good #2 RB that can save some wear and tear on his body throughout the season is a good thing.

Bell has this fantasy about touching the ball 500 times a season but it is a vanity thing with him, it does not equate to winning Super Bowls. If we have to feed a RB so many carries and catches to the point of diminishing returns just so he can pad his stats then what is the point? As I see it all we are doing by feeding the ball to him so much is making it that much more likely that he will turn the ball over. Last 27 regular season games he has fumbled 7 times. He can't even secure the football like he did so well earlier in his career. And with all of those extra touches it isn't like he is rewarding us with more TDs. Where are the 24, 26, 27, 31 TDs that the Tomlinson's, Priest Holmes, etc, produced with that workload? They know Bell will never be that type of TD producer, he needs help, there is a need for a second RB.

Having a 1-2 punch this season with Bell/Samuels may create more TDs, create more points then just giving Bell his 500 touches and watching him maybe score 11 TDs.

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 Post subject: Re: Jaylen Samuels TE/FB/WR 5th RND 165th overall
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 5:06 pm 
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Scunge wrote:
Just for arguments sake, take the 2017 season and discount the last game that Bell was rested.

How many snaps did the other RBs have in those 15 games when Bell was starting?

You take Fitz, Conner, Watson and Ridley and they combined for 93 offensive snaps, which, yeah, may not seem like much but that averages out to over 6 snaps per game.

Conner had 68 snaps in 14 games. He may very well have seen more playing time if he wasn't such a bad pass protector and not much of a weapon in the passing game. Samuels is a great weapon in the passing game and will probably prove to be a more reliable pass protector.

I think the Steelers had a plan to get Conner more involved in spelling Bell but it just did not work out because of Conners issues in pass protection and him getting injured. Also with Conner coming back from injury I don't really think it is a forgone conclusion that he is the #2 RB. I think with a great preseason Jaylin can put a stranglehold on that #2 RB spot and see quite a bit of playing time.

Last season the Steeler RBs, not counting Nix at fullback, accounted for almost 1,100 offensive snaps.

So, this season, say we are working with that same 1,100 offensive snaps for your #1 and #2 RBs. Is it really out of the question to think that the Steelers, now with a quality #2 in Samuels, won't take some of the load off of Bell? Say 800 offensive snaps for Bell and 300 snaps for Samuels? Or 850/250? Bell's last two playoff games, both losses, Bell averaged 3.3 yard per carry against NE and 4.1 yards per carry against Jax. He has a hard time finishing strong when we need him the most, having a good #2 RB that can save some wear and tear on his body throughout the season is a good thing.

Bell has this fantasy about touching the ball 500 times a season but it is a vanity thing with him, it does not equate to winning Super Bowls. If we have to feed a RB so many carries and catches to the point of diminishing returns just so he can pad his stats then what is the point? As I see it all we are doing by feeding the ball to him so much is making it that much more likely that he will turn the ball over. Last 27 regular season games he has fumbled 7 times. He can't even secure the football like he did so well earlier in his career. And with all of those extra touches it isn't like he is rewarding us with more TDs. Where are the 24, 26, 27, 31 TDs that the Tomlinson's, Priest Holmes, etc, produced with that workload? They know Bell will never be that type of TD producer, he needs help, there is a need for a second RB.

Having a 1-2 punch this season with Bell/Samuels may create more TDs, create more points then just giving Bell his 500 touches and watching him maybe score 11 TDs.
I agree. If Samuels pans out like it's predicted, the steelers should be more concerned with winning than giving money eyes his touches. Both of them in the backfield with AB and Washington should make defensive coordinators nervous. Add McDonald or James with a healthy O line. . .

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 Post subject: Re: Jaylen Samuels TE/FB/WR 5th RND 165th overall
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 8:51 pm 
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I like how people are all “Ben hasn’t won a meaningful game in a decade” but yet think Bell having 500 touches is the key to winning championships. What the hell has Bell done for this team in postseason games? He made plays in KC last year but honestly that gameplan was ludicrously running the wheels off and ended not up with him compromised for the biggest game of the year.

It’s actually in the Steelers best interest to be less dependent on Bell and to use him less as the center of the offense. Ultimately, relying so heavily on him makes the offense more predictable and makes two players who the team can’t afford to lose or the season’s over.

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 Post subject: Re: Jaylen Samuels TE/FB/WR 5th RND 165th overall
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 9:05 pm 
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Bell is going to be the feature back but i would not mind seeing others get some carries especially with bell being gone after 2018


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 Post subject: Re: Jaylen Samuels TE/FB/WR 5th RND 165th overall
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 9:31 pm 
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I'd argue Bell has been our best player in the playoffs the past two years. The guy has been an outstanding playoff performer.

It's not his fault they run his wheels off and design the offense around him. That's on (up to now) Haley and Tomlin.

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 Post subject: Re: Jaylen Samuels TE/FB/WR 5th RND 165th overall
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 11:30 pm 
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TB wrote:
I'd argue Bell has been our best player in the playoffs the past two years. The guy has been an outstanding playoff performer.

It's not his fault they run his wheels off and design the offense around him. That's on (up to now) Haley and Tomlin.

He was awesome in the NE AFCCG and in last year’s JAX game.

Or not.

That KC game probably would have been a whole lot better if Bell didn’t touch it as much.

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 Post subject: Re: Jaylen Samuels TE/FB/WR 5th RND 165th overall
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 1:00 am 
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That KC game was a masterful job on their DC's part.

They sort of played 'Rope a Dope' with Bell. This is the technique that Ali used with Foreman in the Rumble in the Jungle fight. Or if that is too esoteric for some of you think of it too as the classic bend but don't break defense. Their DC did not want to give up quick cheap points, no quick scoring plays. Steelers want to run the ball, feed Bell? Go ahead, we will easily give up plays, give Bell his touches and yards but when you cross our 30 we are going to clamp down hard on your ass and stop Bell.

So, yeah, Bell had 30 carries for 170 yards, a 5.6 yard average and 0 TDs

This supposedly great pass catcher who is like a #2 WR had 2 catches for -4 yards and 0 TDs

Yeah, Bell got his touches and got his yards, rushing at least, but what happened when we got within the redzone? Where was that finisher? Where is that stud RB who scores TDs?

First quarter, we are at the KC 5 yard line, 2nd and 2, Ben throws to Bell, incomplete. We end up settling for a FG.
First quarter, were get down to the 20 yard line and again, settle for a FG. Bell is not targeted at all, KC doing a good job in coverage on him.
Second quarter, we are down to the KC 18 yard line, 2nd and 10, Bell carries for -1 yard, next play incomplete pass to Bell. We settle for a FG.
Second quarter, we are down to the KC 25 yard line, 1st and 10, Bell carries for 1 yard, next play a completed pass to Bell... for -3 yards. We settle for another FG.
Third quarter, we are down to the KC 25 yard line, 2nd and 10, Bell carries for 1 yard, next play a completed pass to Bell... for -1 yard. We settle for a ANOTHER DAMN FG!
Fourth quarter, we are down to the KC 21 yard line, 1st and 10, Bell carries for 2 yards, next two plays not targeted at all, settle for a FG.

KC absorbed the blows of Bell, allowed him to get his yards but when he got to the 25 yard line, the redzone, KC mounted their offensive and took him out.

6 instances of being down there in scoring position and Bell had 4 carries for 3 yards, and was targeted 4 times and it produced 2 incomplete passes and 2 catches for -4 yards.

You may look at Bell's 170 yards rushing that game and get stoked, me?, I yawn, that was actually pretty piss poor game to me, just sort of incapsulates the lie, the con of Leveon Bell.

Feed me, feed me, I need my touches but then you end up not finishing the deal, where are the touchdowns? It reminds me of that old Wendy's commercial with Clara looking at competitor's hamburgers and saying, "Where's the Beef?"

I look at Bell, remove the top bun, look down at the puny beef patty (touchdowns, explosive plays, etc) and think to myself where is the beef? WHERE'S THE BEEF?

I look at his 66 career games and I see 4 touchdowns over 20+ yards. That is pitiful, it is not that uncommon for a RB to have much, much more than that. There is no rule that says you can't rip off a 35 yard TD run, or a 50 yard TD catch, but Bell almost seem allergic to doing it. Or is it that he CAN'T do it?

DeAngelo Williams played in 143 career games and he had 26 touchdowns over 20+ yards. That is a pretty huge discrepancy and Williams is not a HOFer, once in a generation type of player that people claim Bell to be.

The offensive approach, the way we teach our O-line to block for Bell may be doing a disservice to our offense as a whole. Most of the time your explosive plays happen because it is bang-bang play, your O-line makes a crack, the RB explodes through it and you get a 50 yard TD. But with Bell, these slow developing, excruciating long plays sort of nullify the possibility of having those explosive runs. Bell should really get up everyday and kiss Mike Munchak's feet. Once Bell move on in free agency he is going to really come to appreciate how Munchak and his blocking system made him the RB that he is. Once Bell is with a new team, that has an inferior O-line coach and can't replicate what we did with our offensive line and approach to the run game, he will be just another guy. He will be lucky to rush for 800 yards and probably average less than 4 yards a carry. It will not end well for him.

And in terms of the passing game, we targeted him 106 times last year in the passing game and we got 31 first downs for our trouble and just 2 TDs. That is pretty scary. I have always got up on the table and stomped my feet for a multi-dimensional RB who could catch 60 passes a year and be that threat in the passing game, but the Steeler have taken it to excess with Bell. We are not getting good returns on that investment. My guess is that most defenses are fine with us targeting Bell so much, makes their job easier. It isn't like he is going to score any TDs, or have any long pass catches, and hell, he is only getting a first down 29% of the time on his targets. That is playing into the defense's hands, making their job easier.

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 Post subject: Re: Jaylen Samuels TE/FB/WR 5th RND 165th overall
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 9:47 am 
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TB wrote:
I'd argue Bell has been our best player in the playoffs the past two years. The guy has been an outstanding playoff performer.

It's not his fault they run his wheels off and design the offense around him. That's on (up to now) Haley and Tomlin.


You must have been watching different playoff games from me.

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