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 Post subject: Turtling
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:55 pm 
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I watched football for decades thinking that running the football was a perfectly acceptable and reasonable way of advancing the football with the purpose of getting a touchdown. Even when I've seen teams have drives in which most of the plays are running plays, it never occurred to me that they weren't still trying to score a TD at the end of the drive. Running seems like a good idea if running is a particular strength of your offense or if stopping the run is a particular weakness of the opposing defense or depending on game situations.

So I'm exaggerating--a little--when I say that in game threads it seems like anytime the Steelers hand off a couple times in a row, someone's going to come on and complain that they are Turtling. So my questions:

When is it Turtling, and when is it simply running the ball, even predominantly running the ball, with the intent to score a TD or is there a difference? Can the Steelers have drives in which they mostly run the ball and still be trying to score a TD? Should the Steelers be like the old Run and Shoot teams that would literally pass 2/3's of the time and run 1/3rd of the time?

How much and under what circumstances should the Steelers run the ball? When (if ever) is it acceptable for the Steelers to have a drive in which they run most of the time? Is running half the time acceptable?


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 Post subject: Re: Turtling
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:43 pm 
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Well to me the New England game was an example of Turtling at the end of the 3rd quarter.

We were up 24-16 with a full 15 minutes left. The defense was actually doing a pretty good job against Brady and company that game but come on, it would not last the whole game and you have to continue to score points, to keep up the pressure and widen the score.

So, what does Haley/Tomlin decide to do when we have the ball as we enter the 4th quarter? James Connor and Fitz Touissant get some carries!!! Cause we are going to pound the ball, chew the clock!!! I don't want to hear that we started at the 3 yard line, you take Bell off the field and bring in Connor and Touissant for carries? How the hell was that drive ever supposed to be successful? In that territory you need Bell on the field for his pass protection and for his skills as a catcher. They telegraphed what they were going to do when Fitz and Connor came on the field, there was not doubt, no misdirection, it made it very easy for NE to stop our offense and get the ball back.

Anyway, NE gets the ball back and gets a FG, score is 24-19. What do we do in response? At our 19 yard line, we hand off to Bell up the middle for a 1 yard gain on the first play of the drive. They basically took the ball out of Ben's hands in that 4th quarter, felt that 24 points was enough to win the game, in a word, turtling.

It makes me sick that they do this time and time again. The goal should be to always keep scoring. The NFL as it is now constructed allows for tremendous comebacks. A 10 point lead is nothing, a 14 point lead, a 21 point lead is not impossible to come back from.

When you turtle you give the other team a greater chance to make a comeback. Turtling to me, is when you have a lead and then make the decision to go conservative and run the ball and have no desire to score more points.

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 Post subject: Re: Turtling
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:37 pm 
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Scunge wrote:
Turtling to me, is when you have a lead and then make the decision to go conservative and run the ball and have no desire to score more points.

I guess that's part of my question. Does the fact that they are running the ball mean they're not trying to score points?


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 Post subject: Re: Turtling
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:48 pm 
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Poltargyst wrote:
Scunge wrote:
Turtling to me, is when you have a lead and then make the decision to go conservative and run the ball and have no desire to score more points.

I guess that's part of my question. Does the fact that they are running the ball mean they're not trying to score points?


The fact that they took Martavis Bryant off the field in favor of a big set and extra O-lineman (with brown injured), in a game where Bryant had finally showed up to play, tells me they lowered their odds of scoring a TD.

If you play small ball, chew the clock, long drive football...you minimize scoring chances....both because you have fewer drives and because the more plays in a drive you run, the greater the odds you're going to fuck up a play or two.

That's just dumb with an eight point lead and a quarter or so to go.

This is why passing YPA (or better, AYPA) is the stat that most highly correlates with scoring points.

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 Post subject: Re: Turtling
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:52 pm 
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Poltargyst wrote:
Scunge wrote:
Turtling to me, is when you have a lead and then make the decision to go conservative and run the ball and have no desire to score more points.

I guess that's part of my question. Does the fact that they are running the ball mean they're not trying to score points?


More like they're hoping for the best by playing scared.

It's a Steeler tradition since Cowher based on that identity bullshit. Fuck that, go for the jugular. Better to go out a lion than a lamb.

I know it's a broken record by bringing him up, but since Scunge mentioned the Patriots, when's the last time you saw Bill Belichick turtle?

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Last edited by Obviously on Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Turtling
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:52 pm 
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In today’s NFL, running the football should be an accent of your offense, not the focus of your offense. Unfortunately, the Steelers disagree.
If I’ve said it once, I’ve said it a hundred times...Mike Tomlin was hired because the Rooney’s saw another Bill Cowher, philosophy wise. And Bill Cowher was hired because he epitomized what they wanted to sell to the yinzer fan...hard nosed, smash mouth, rough and tumble football. That’s outdated.
The Pats play pussy ass football...and win championships.

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 Post subject: Re: Turtling
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:02 am 
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Obviously wrote:
Poltargyst wrote:
Scunge wrote:
Turtling to me, is when you have a lead and then make the decision to go conservative and run the ball and have no desire to score more points.

I guess that's part of my question. Does the fact that they are running the ball mean they're not trying to score points?


More like they're hoping for the best by playing scared.

It's a Steeler tradition since Cowher based on that identity bullshit. Fuck that, go for the jugular. Better to go out a lion than a lamb.

I know it's a broken record by bringing him up, but since Scunge mentioned the Patriots, when's the last time you saw Bill Belichick turtle?



Belichick's teams run the ball plenty when they have a lead late, every NFL team does, to think the Steelers are the only team that turtles only proves that one probably only watches Steelers games.

Last season NE threw the ball 587 times, they ran it 448 times. PS threw it 590 times and ran it 437 times.


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 Post subject: Re: Turtling
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:05 am 
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I would guess Belichick does not turtle with a one-score lead and a quarter+ to go.

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 Post subject: Re: Turtling
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:48 am 
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Here in the offseason, I thought this thread was about the Steelers' approach to Free Agency and building the roster....

They love to turtle both on and off the field....


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 Post subject: Re: Turtling
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:27 pm 
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Oh, thought this was about us turtling in free agency

My bad

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 Post subject: Re: Turtling
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:49 pm 
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StillerDownSouth wrote:
Last season NE threw the ball 587 times, they ran it 448 times. PS threw it 590 times and ran it 437 times.

PIT threw the ball behind the LOS 27 more times than did NE. Virtual runs.

NE 495 passes beyond the LOS, 540 runs/behind LOS

PIT 471 passes beyond the LOS, 556 runs/behind LOS

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 Post subject: Re: Turtling
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:17 pm 
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Jobus Rum wrote:
In today’s NFL, running the football should be an accent of your offense, not the focus of your offense. Unfortunately, the Steelers disagree.
If I’ve said it once, I’ve said it a hundred times...Mike Tomlin was hired because the Rooney’s saw another Bill Cowher, philosophy wise. And Bill Cowher was hired because he epitomized what they wanted to sell to the yinzer fan...hard nosed, smash mouth, rough and tumble football. That’s outdated.
The Pats play pussy ass football...and win championships.


LOL! :lol: I was saying this 20 years ago! When I wanted to fire Cowher, draft Drew Brees and play a run and shoot offense! :lol:

And everyone would say, Brees doesn't fit the "Steeler Way", Defense, Run Ball, Chew Clock!" Can't ever change!


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 Post subject: Re: Turtling
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:09 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
The fact that they took Martavis Bryant off the field in favor of a big set and extra O-lineman (with brown injured), in a game where Bryant had finally showed up to play, tells me they lowered their odds of scoring a TD.


Turtling is telegraphing to everyone with a pulse that you're going to go conservative and then going conservative (typically into a nine-man front).

Turtling is like cuckold pornography. You know it when you see it and Todd Haley is really into it.


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 Post subject: Re: Turtling
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:32 pm 
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Going conservative in big spots has just as much if not more to do with Tomlin than it ever had to do with Haley. That's what he wants us to do. Questioning a particular play call is one thing, but Tomlin has clear input and control over when to be risky/go for the jugular and when to play it safe in key moments and drives.

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 Post subject: Re: Turtling
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:06 pm 
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TB wrote:
Going conservative in big spots has just as much if not more to do with Tomlin than it ever had to do with Haley. That's what he wants us to do. Questioning a particular play call is one thing, but Tomlin has clear input and control over when to be risky/go for the jugular and when to play it safe in key moments and drives.


Oh I agree.

I’m certain losing Antonio Brown scared the shit out of Tomlin, and so when they got the short field TD after the INT to take an eight point lead, he tried to run away and hide.

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 Post subject: Re: Turtling
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:12 pm 
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TB wrote:
Going conservative in big spots has just as much if not more to do with Tomlin than it ever had to do with Haley. That's what he wants us to do. Questioning a particular play call is one thing, but Tomlin has clear input and control over when to be risky/go for the jugular and when to play it safe in key moments and drives.

It’s absolutely Tomlin. But it goes even higher...it’s what A2 wants. The Steelers Way...

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 Post subject: Re: Turtling
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:28 pm 
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It worked great in our game vs NE.


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 Post subject: Re: Turtling
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:43 pm 
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Definition of turtling

:the action or process of tightening one's sphincter typically evidenced by the use of predictable run plays in the misplaced hope of exhausting the play clock and having to convert countless third down plays against all percentages.


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 Post subject: Re: Turtling
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:03 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
Poltargyst wrote:
Scunge wrote:
Turtling to me, is when you have a lead and then make the decision to go conservative and run the ball and have no desire to score more points.

I guess that's part of my question. Does the fact that they are running the ball mean they're not trying to score points?


The fact that they took Martavis Bryant off the field in favor of a big set and extra O-lineman (with brown injured), in a game where Bryant had finally showed up to play, tells me they lowered their odds of scoring a TD.

If you play small ball, chew the clock, long drive football...you minimize scoring chances....both because you have fewer drives and because the more plays in a drive you run, the greater the odds you're going to fuck up a play or two.

That's just dumb with an eight point lead and a quarter or so to go.

This is why passing YPA (or better, AYPA) is the stat that most highly correlates with scoring points.

I can accept that. So how much should the Steelers be running the ball?


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 Post subject: Re: Turtling
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:55 am 
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The mix of playcalling is not the issue.

It was the complete lack of flow and setting up the defense that got Haley fired. Just looking at the % of run/pass plays called is practically useless.

With Haley gone, Ben might finally have the record-breaking year he's always been capable of.

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 Post subject: Re: Turtling
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:06 pm 
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I'm hoping with Fich we get the best of Arians and Haley without the downsides.


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 Post subject: Re: Turtling
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:02 pm 
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Poltargyst wrote:
I'm hoping with Fich we get the best of Arians and Haley without the downsides.


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