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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Stars 3-11-18
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:44 pm 
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That overturn was just another example where replay adheres to the letter of the rule but completely fucking violates the spirit of the rule. Replay is ruining sports. I much prefer the way the games used to be when we just had to live with some occasional human error from officials.

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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Stars 3-11-18
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:24 pm 
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I don't get all the hand wringing over the off sides.
The Pens just shut down a very skilled team and held them to one goal. Our back up back up tender played very well and the Pens came away with 2 valuable points.


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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Stars 3-11-18
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:32 pm 
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SteelPro wrote:
That overturn was just another example where replay adheres to the letter of the rule but completely fucking violates the spirit of the rule. Replay is ruining sports. I much prefer the way the games used to be when we just had to live with some occasional human error from officials.

Well said...I could not agree more!

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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Stars 3-11-18
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:36 pm 
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SteelPro wrote:
That overturn was just another example where replay adheres to the letter of the rule but completely fucking violates the spirit of the rule. Replay is ruining sports. I much prefer the way the games used to be when we just had to live with some occasional human error from officials.


Quite possible that without replay overturning a carbon copy of that call the Penguins are not back-to-back Stanley Cup champions. Should Drouin’s goal have counted in ECF Game 6 in 2016? Tampa gets a 1-0 lead- quite possibly that game unfolds differently and it’s Lightning winning in six.

Hockey replay is just fine. It’s not like they spend 25 minutes splitting hairs.

Limited places they can use it and 99% of the time, IMO, they get it right.

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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Stars 3-11-18
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:47 pm 
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fractalsteel wrote:
I don't get all the hand wringing over the off sides.
The Pens just shut down a very skilled team and held them to one goal. Our back up back up tender played very well and the Pens came away with 2 valuable points.


New to the gameday threads?

If folks didn't have something to bitch about, then they wouldn't even know what to say.

The Pens could be skating the stanley cup around the rink immediately after winning it and some of the pissy-pants posters here would be bitching about what order with which the players got to carry the cup.


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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Stars 3-11-18
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:59 pm 
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Louis Lipps Service wrote:
fractalsteel wrote:
I don't get all the hand wringing over the off sides.
The Pens just shut down a very skilled team and held them to one goal. Our back up back up tender played very well and the Pens came away with 2 valuable points.


New to the gameday threads?

If folks didn't have something to bitch about, then they wouldn't even know what to say.

The Pens could be skating the stanley cup around the rink immediately after winning it and some of the pissy-pants posters here would be bitching about what order with which the players got to carry the cup.


Pretty much why I don't post much on the football side. The animosity b/n certain posters is insane like ordering a coach that just went 13-3 to be murdered.
Anyway I get it is easier to focus on the negative rather than the positive. That said, the Pens were much better defensively last night. Crosby was very active-looking for his shot(my main complaint with him recently is that he isn't shooting enough).

I get it for the record.


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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Stars 3-11-18
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:56 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
SteelPro wrote:
That overturn was just another example where replay adheres to the letter of the rule but completely fucking violates the spirit of the rule. Replay is ruining sports. I much prefer the way the games used to be when we just had to live with some occasional human error from officials.


Quite possible that without replay overturning a carbon copy of that call the Penguins are not back-to-back Stanley Cup champions. Should Drouin’s goal have counted in ECF Game 6 in 2016? Tampa gets a 1-0 lead- quite possibly that game unfolds differently and it’s Lightning winning in six.

Hockey replay is just fine. It’s not like they spend 25 minutes splitting hairs.

Limited places they can use it and 99% of the time, IMO, they get it right.


Yes. IMO Drouin's goal should have counted. Without review not a single person watching would have had any beef with the goal Drouin scored or the goal the Pens had last night. It takes an eagle eye by some technical sleuth working in some booth to even raise it as an issue. It is just like in baseball when a guy clearly swipes a bag but gets banged out on a replay by a technicality that he lost contact with the bag by a c*nt hair. It is fucking up the games. Should hockey really be removing goals that happen many seconds after an infraction that is so slight it has be discovered on a super slow motion replay? I think it is dumb and bad for the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Stars 3-11-18
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:02 pm 
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SteelPro wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
SteelPro wrote:
That overturn was just another example where replay adheres to the letter of the rule but completely fucking violates the spirit of the rule. Replay is ruining sports. I much prefer the way the games used to be when we just had to live with some occasional human error from officials.


Quite possible that without replay overturning a carbon copy of that call the Penguins are not back-to-back Stanley Cup champions. Should Drouin’s goal have counted in ECF Game 6 in 2016? Tampa gets a 1-0 lead- quite possibly that game unfolds differently and it’s Lightning winning in six.

Hockey replay is just fine. It’s not like they spend 25 minutes splitting hairs.

Limited places they can use it and 99% of the time, IMO, they get it right.


Yes. IMO Drouin's goal should have counted. Without review not a single person watching would have had any beef with the goal Drouin scored or the goal the Pens had last night. It takes an eagle eye by some technical sleuth working in some booth to even raise it as an issue. It is just like in baseball when a guy clearly swipes a bag but gets banged out on a replay by a technicality that he lost contact with the bag by a c*nt hair. It is fucking up the games. Should hockey really be removing goals that happen many seconds after an infraction that is so slight it has be discovered on a super slow motion replay? I think it is dumb and bad for the game.


You mean Dumolin's goal? I was doing some work on my laptop during that game and was only a quarter paying attention, but my understanding was that it wasn't overturned to be a goal because they called it a goalie interference penalty before the goal was actually scored. Which, in itself is a bad call, but not review-able because penalties aren't review-able.

Was that how they called it, or was I not paying attention enough?


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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Stars 3-11-18
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:52 pm 
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Louis Lipps Service wrote:
SteelPro wrote:
Yes. IMO Drouin's goal should have counted. Without review not a single person watching would have had any beef with the goal Drouin scored or the goal the Pens had last night. It takes an eagle eye by some technical sleuth working in some booth to even raise it as an issue. It is just like in baseball when a guy clearly swipes a bag but gets banged out on a replay by a technicality that he lost contact with the bag by a c*nt hair. It is fucking up the games. Should hockey really be removing goals that happen many seconds after an infraction that is so slight it has be discovered on a super slow motion replay? I think it is dumb and bad for the game.


You mean Dumolin's goal? I was doing some work on my laptop during that game and was only a quarter paying attention, but my understanding was that it wasn't overturned to be a goal because they called it a goalie interference penalty before the goal was actually scored. Which, in itself is a bad call, but not review-able because penalties aren't review-able.

Was that how they called it, or was I not paying attention enough?


No I was comparing Drouin’s goal for Tampa in game 6 of the ECF that was overturned because Tampa was offside by every bit as much as Malkin was offside last night.

I don’t have a problem with such overturns...they don’t happen all that much...certainly not so much to raise a fuss over it.

I can see Pro’s POV even though I don’t agree with it, but yesterday other people weren’t even arguing that. They were trying to argue Malkin wasn’t offside when he clearly was.

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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Stars 3-11-18
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:14 pm 
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Dumo’s goal on Saturday was just a bad call.

The offsides calls are tougher for me because here I see technology aiding the fault of the human eye; if we have the ability to make a call as a matter of fact (as in, replay can show “yes, the ball crossed the plane” or “yes, the player was offsides”), shouldn’t we use technology to correct our deficiencies? I think we do.

IIRC, SCF game one last season against Nashville, didn’t we challenge and win an offsides call in Nashville’s first goal? I seem to recall it being very similar in that it focused in on the player’s feet leaving the ice.

We challenge, we win, we win that game then win in 6, rest is history.


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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Stars 3-11-18
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:07 pm 
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Orangesteel wrote:
Dumo’s goal on Saturday was just a bad call.

The offsides calls are tougher for me because here I see technology aiding the fault of the human eye; if we have the ability to make a call as a matter of fact (as in, replay can show “yes, the ball crossed the plane” or “yes, the player was offsides”), shouldn’t we use technology to correct our deficiencies? I think we do.

IIRC, SCF game one last season against Nashville, didn’t we challenge and win an offsides call in Nashville’s first goal? I seem to recall it being very similar in that it focused in on the player’s feet leaving the ice.

We challenge, we win, we win that game then win in 6, rest is history.


You can currently challenge offsides if it ends up being a goal during the same possession. Personally, I think it's a terribly flawed rule. At best, it needs tweaked so that you can only review it if the goal was scored on a rush immediately after the puck enters the zone (although then we have to define what a "rush" is and this could easily spiral downwards into NFL Catch Rule levels of ridiculousness). Once the team sets up in the zone, the reviews shouldn't be allowed. By that point, the potential effects of the offsides aren't really relevant. This crap where a team crosses over the line, keeps it in the zone for 45 seconds, scores a goal, but then gets it overturned on a reviewed offsides is pure crap.

Now if you're suggesting they broaden it make all offsides calls reviewable, I think you're going to get yourself into a lot of trouble pretty quickly by doing that. First off, offside plays are blown dead immediately. So what are you going to do about that? Ask the refs to swallow the whistle until the Toronto office has time to review the play? That could be a full 30 seconds or more, which puts us in the same scenario I mentioned above. It's just not practical.

The NFL has completely swayed my opinion on using replay. I used to be firmly in the "use the technology" camp until the NFL showed me how much it can submarine a game when used as a crutch. Now I'm perfectly happy living with imperfections in the game.

If we get to a point where we can put chips in the players' skates, puck, and blue line, and be able to monitor accurately in real-time without the need for reviews, then I can probably be talked into it. But everything I've seen in modern replay has just proven to me that it's not worth hassle.


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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Stars 3-11-18
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:58 pm 
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Instant replay has gotten so out of hand. The point is to fix egregious errors. But all these leagues have just gotten so buried dissecting every minute detail on every suspect play. It is absurd. What these leagues should do is allow review but it has to be in real speed. Nothing seen in slo mo. So you get that second look to fix real egregious mistakes but you don’t get bogged down in searching for stuff so small that the naked eye can’t catch it without the aid of technology.

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Last edited by SteelPro on Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Stars 3-11-18
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:58 am 
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SteelPro wrote:
you don’t get bogged down in searching for stuff so small that the naked can’t catch it without the aid of technology.


There is some merit to this, but "you have the technology, why not use it" crowd will disapprove, as well as fans of any team hosed by the changed system. Instant replay, for good or bad, was pretty much Pandora's Box. No way to close the thing now.


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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Stars 3-11-18
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:04 pm 
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Ice wrote:
SteelPro wrote:
you don’t get bogged down in searching for stuff so small that the naked can’t catch it without the aid of technology.


There is some merit to this, but "you have the technology, why not use it" crowd will disapprove, as well as fans of any team hosed by the changed system. Instant replay, for good or bad, was pretty much Pandora's Box. No way to close the thing now.



This is what really bugs me. In every other level of the game this technology isn't feasible. So the games at there upper most level of pro sports are being changed counter to how the game is taught and played at lower levels. This is what drives me nuts when people suggest robot umpires calling balls and strikes in baseball. Adapting to an individual umpire's is a hugely important skill. It is been a hugely important skill since the origins of the game and it will continue to be a necessary skill throughout amateur baseball long into the future. But let's go ahead and make it an obsolete skill in the major leagues.

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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Stars 3-11-18
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:36 pm 
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SteelPro wrote:
Instant replay has gotten so out of hand. The point is to fix egregious errors. But all these leagues have just gotten so buried dissecting every minute detail on every suspect play. It is absurd. What these leagues should do is allow review but it has to be in real speed. Nothing seen in slo mo. So you get that second look to fix real egregious mistakes but you don’t get bogged down in searching for stuff so small that the naked eye can’t catch it without the aid of technology.



The problem there is that the networks are still going to show it in super slow motion on the telecast. So while it might not look egregious in real time, it may still look so to the fans, which means all the outrage and crap media stories about missed calls is still going to exist.

We've essentially opened Pandora's box with this stuff. Media outlets aren't going to stop reporting on it even if you change or eliminate replay and fans aren't going to stop complaining about it, so leagues are going to keep trying to refine their replay process to at least get it as close to "right" as possible. And they may very well ruin their own games during that process.


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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Stars 3-11-18
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:21 pm 
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Louis Lipps Service wrote:
SteelPro wrote:
Instant replay has gotten so out of hand. The point is to fix egregious errors. But all these leagues have just gotten so buried dissecting every minute detail on every suspect play. It is absurd. What these leagues should do is allow review but it has to be in real speed. Nothing seen in slo mo. So you get that second look to fix real egregious mistakes but you don’t get bogged down in searching for stuff so small that the naked eye can’t catch it without the aid of technology.



The problem there is that the networks are still going to show it in super slow motion on the telecast. So while it might not look egregious in real time, it may still look so to the fans, which means all the outrage and crap media stories about missed calls is still going to exist.

We've essentially opened Pandora's box with this stuff. Media outlets aren't going to stop reporting on it even if you change or eliminate replay and fans aren't going to stop complaining about it, so leagues are going to keep trying to refine their replay process to at least get it as close to "right" as possible. And they may very well ruin their own games during that process.


Yup. The milk is spilled.


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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Stars 3-11-18
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:29 am 
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They way they allow the offside challenge now may seem unfair, especially if any goal happens long after the offside would have had any major effect. On this I agree.

However, given what has been stated here...that replay is not going away any time soon...it’s actually the most objective way to call the thing.

Anything else becomes a judgement call by the refs as to whether the attacking team gained any advantage from the offside...whether “the initial rush” was over or not.

So it’s the best outcome possible given that replay is here to stay.

And it really doesn’t happen all that much to be a big deal, IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Stars 3-11-18
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:52 am 
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Jeemie wrote:
They way they allow the offside challenge now may seem unfair, especially if any goal happens long after the offside would have had any major effect. On this I agree.

However, given what has been stated here...that replay is not going away any time soon...it’s actually the most objective way to call the thing.

Anything else becomes a judgement call by the refs as to whether the attacking team gained any advantage from the offside...whether “the initial rush” was over or not.

So it’s the best outcome possible given that replay is here to stay.

And it really doesn’t happen all that much to be a big deal, IMO.


Right. Judgement call. The exact way the games (and I'm talking all sports) were officiated for close to 100 years. And it is the way the amateur games will continue to be called long into the future. I guess I'm the only one that sees an issue with the professional games being fundamentally different from the rest of the sport.

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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Stars 3-11-18
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:17 am 
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Jeemie wrote:
They way they allow the offside challenge now may seem unfair, especially if any goal happens long after the offside would have had any major effect. On this I agree.

However, given what has been stated here...that replay is not going away any time soon...it’s actually the most objective way to call the thing.

Anything else becomes a judgement call by the refs as to whether the attacking team gained any advantage from the offside...whether “the initial rush” was over or not.

So it’s the best outcome possible given that replay is here to stay.

And it really doesn’t happen all that much to be a big deal, IMO.


Yup. "gained advantage" sounds too much like "football move" and "survive the ground" for comfort, honestly.


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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Stars 3-11-18
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:07 pm 
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SteelPro wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
They way they allow the offside challenge now may seem unfair, especially if any goal happens long after the offside would have had any major effect. On this I agree.

However, given what has been stated here...that replay is not going away any time soon...it’s actually the most objective way to call the thing.

Anything else becomes a judgement call by the refs as to whether the attacking team gained any advantage from the offside...whether “the initial rush” was over or not.

So it’s the best outcome possible given that replay is here to stay.

And it really doesn’t happen all that much to be a big deal, IMO.


Right. Judgement call. The exact way the games (and I'm talking all sports) were officiated for close to 100 years. And it is the way the amateur games will continue to be called long into the future. I guess I'm the only one that sees an issue with the professional games being fundamentally different from the rest of the sport.


Not really because it doesn’t happen all that much, as I’ve said.

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