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 Post subject: Steigerwald on Dave Freese's Pirates comments
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:33 am 
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This may be my only Pirate post of the year, and they're really Steigerwald's words concerning Dave Freese's recent comments about the losing culture that is the Bucs. I know the hate for Steigerwald here but, in my opinion, he nails it here:

"David Freese has breaking news.

The Pirates stink.

They are one of the most pathetically inept major professional sports franchises in the history of North America. Freeze went off on the loser’s mentality that permeates the Pirates from the front office to the locker room when he arrived in Bradenton on Friday.

“I walk in every day, and the demand to win just hasn’t been in the air. That’s what you need.”

Freeze showed up for his first spring training as a Pirate in 2016 after they had won 98 games and gone to the postseason three years in a row.

Maybe he got the impression that he had joined a real Major League Baseball franchise. How was he to know that the team he had joined was about to revert back to being what it had been for 20 of the last 23 years – a Major League Baseball franchise in name only?

The three winning seasons from 2013 through 2015 did a lot to purify the organization and at least cover up the stink, but everybody knows that the smell is back and most people acknowledge that the scent was always lingering.

It was only a matter of time before the window closed and the Nutting family got back to selling fireworks, food and a charming view.

Freese made the mistake of signing an extension to his one year deal in August of 2016. He’s now stuck with the Pirates through this season.

Fans and media are celebrating Freese for speaking the truth and calling out the Nutting family for not trying hard enough to win. The consensus seems to be that the Pirates could compete with the Cubs, Cardinals and every other team in baseball if they weren’t so cheap.

Of course, Bob Nutting could spend more money, but do you really think he is ever going to be able or willing to pay with the Cubs and Cardinals?

It’s not going to happen.

The Cubs just signed pitcher Yu Darvish to a six-year, $126 million contract. Do you really think, if the Pirates had been willing to spend that much, Darvish would have picked them over the Cubs?

Why didn’t the Reds or the Royals sign him?

Where did all the big name, big money players end up?

Yeah, Milwaukee got better by trading four prospects to the Marlins for left fielder Christian Yelich and signing center fielder Lorenzo Cain as a free agent for $80 million, but let’s see if that means a playoff series win or two for the Brewers.

They’ve won one playoff series since 1982.

Not precisely a winning culture up there in Milwaukee. If investing the money in Yelich and Cain gets the Brewers a wild card finish behind the Cubs and Cardinals and an early exit from the playoffs, will it have been money well spent?

Not from the perspective of the fans, who will give ownership credit for trying, but from the owners’ perspective? If the Pirates spend $40 million less and finish fourth, which owner spent (Or didn’t spend) his money more wisely?

The Nuttings will be laughing all the way to the bank again if enough fans show up to allow them to make a nice profit.

Freese apparently noticed that there are teams in Pittsburgh who are expected to win. “You look at the Steelers and Penguins, then you’ve got the Pirates. If I’m handling the situation, I’d be losing sleep trying to compete with those other two teams. To have all those teams in a city like Pittsburgh on top of each league. That would be incredible.”

Apparently, nobody, who was in the locker room on Friday, thought to ask Freese about a salary cap. Do you think he’s aware that Pittsburgh’s other major pro franchises wouldn’t have sniffed the amount of success they’ve had without one?

And here’s something that very few if any fans or media will be willing to acknowledge: Based on the stacked deck the Pirates have to play against because of MLB’s stupid economics, making the postseason three years in a row and winning 98 games in 2015 might have been a more significant accomplishment than the Steelers and Penguins playing for and winning championships.

The Penguins were every bit as bad or worse than the Pirates in the years before the 2004 lockout that produced the NHL’s salary cap. I remember how sad those teams were and could never imagine the Penguins doing what the Pirates did from 2013 through 2015 if there had not been a cap.

The Pirates’ problem is that fans are convinced, justifiably or not, that Bob Nutting’s unwillingness to spend money is all that prevents them from competing for a championship.

The talk shows and social media have been filled with people saying they have been reducing the number of games they’ve been going to the last two years but this year it will be zero.

The McCutchen and Cole trades may have been the last straw for thousands of fans who didn’t hear anything from David Freese that they hadn’t been thinking for a long, long time.
"

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 Post subject: Re: Steigerwald on Dave Freese's Pirates comments
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:01 pm 
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JackLambert58 wrote:
The Penguins were every bit as bad or worse than the Pirates in the years before the 2004 lockout that produced the NHL’s salary cap. I remember how sad those teams were and could never imagine the Penguins doing what the Pirates did from 2013 through 2015 if there had not been a cap.[/i]"


This is one of the dumber assertions I have seen. A quick Google search would be all that was needed to have shown the Penguins as a playoff team from the late 80s until a couple of years before his mentioned 2004. That run in the playoffs when Lemieux came back from the owner's box to play may not have resulted in a Cup, but three years is a lot shorter gap than (still, the mirage of 2013-15 notwithstanding) not a single playoff series win since 1982. Steigerwald, or really anyone, comparing Pens ownership to Pirates ownership in terms of putting a quality, Championship caliber team in play, is either blind, stupid, very well paid or some combination of the three.


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 Post subject: Re: Steigerwald on Dave Freese's Pirates comments
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:07 pm 
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I very gladly cancelled my mlb extra innings subscription after any years. Just can't take it anymore. When asked why I hit the drop down with something like status or condition of team this season.


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 Post subject: Re: Steigerwald on Dave Freese's Pirates comments
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:01 pm 
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Rod & Wire Mill wrote:
I very gladly cancelled my mlb extra innings subscription after any years. Just can't take it anymore. When asked why I hit the drop down with something like status or condition of team this season.


I’ve been getting it free from TMobile the last two years.

What rotten timing.

And how much did Steigerwald get paid by Nutting for that article?

It’s not that he didn’t spend more.

It’s that he didn’t spend wisely to keep that core he had together in 2015 for a couple more years and add to it.

No one’s asking him to go after Darvish or Stanton, but maybe if he had kept Happ and Soria and others?

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 Post subject: Re: Steigerwald on Dave Freese's Pirates comments
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:30 am 
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I'm pretty sure that Steigerwald has no use for Nutting. Do you really thing Nutting paid Steigerwald to say this: The Nuttings will be laughing all the way to the bank again if enough fans show up to allow them to make a nice profit.

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 Post subject: Re: Steigerwald on Dave Freese's Pirates comments
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:32 am 
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Ice wrote:
JackLambert58 wrote:
The Penguins were every bit as bad or worse than the Pirates in the years before the 2004 lockout that produced the NHL’s salary cap. I remember how sad those teams were and could never imagine the Penguins doing what the Pirates did from 2013 through 2015 if there had not been a cap.[/i]"


This is one of the dumber assertions I have seen. A quick Google search would be all that was needed to have shown the Penguins as a playoff team from the late 80s until a couple of years before his mentioned 2004. That run in the playoffs when Lemieux came back from the owner's box to play may not have resulted in a Cup, but three years is a lot shorter gap than (still, the mirage of 2013-15 notwithstanding) not a single playoff series win since 1982. Steigerwald, or really anyone, comparing Pens ownership to Pirates ownership in terms of putting a quality, Championship caliber team in play, is either blind, stupid, very well paid or some combination of the three.


A stretch on Steigerwald's part, but seriously, the few years before Sid arrived were pretty dismal.

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 Post subject: Re: Steigerwald on Dave Freese's Pirates comments
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:20 am 
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When you lose Jaromir Jagr and Mario Lemieux in nearly successive years, it's hard not to experience a little bit of a dip. Doesn't really compare to the not winning a playoff series since 1992 "dip" that the Pirates are currently on. Defending that kind of Cleveland-esque failure, and doing so by cherry picking a few bad years between Cup generations from the best run team in the city, is just stupid.


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 Post subject: Re: Steigerwald on Dave Freese's Pirates comments
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:20 am 
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Obviously wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Steigerwald has no use for Nutting. Do you really thing Nutting paid Steigerwald to say this: The Nuttings will be laughing all the way to the bank again if enough fans show up to allow them to make a nice profit.


Yet his thesis was kind of a defense of Nutting.

The Pirates did not have to go after huge name free agents...all they needed to do was do a little more to hold some key assets from 2013-2015 together.

They didn't even try and do that. After 2015 it was "let's completely rebuild with youth".

Yeah- Kang bit them in the ass- but there was no excuse for not trying to keep some of the other key assets....and maybe adding a few mid-tier players.

And something's slipping between the minors and the majors- for all the vaunted rebuilding of the minor league system, it hasn't pumped a lot of ML talent onto the big club.

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 Post subject: Re: Steigerwald on Dave Freese's Pirates comments
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:35 am 
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Jeemie wrote:
Obviously wrote:
And something's slipping between the minors and the majors- for all the vaunted rebuilding of the minor league system, it hasn't pumped a lot of ML talent onto the big club.


From the standpoint of a purely casual Pirates fan, if that (Dad let me stay up for the NLCS games in 1992, at 9 years old, it was a pretty big deal. Idolized that iteration of Barry Bonds; was at that home playoff game against the Reds, loved it, then watched the mirage fade, and am now disgruntled, at best), this seems to be almost as big a reason for the fall-off of the team as anything else.

Kept hearing how these stud young pitchers, OF, etc. were going to come up, so signing free agents wasn't a big deal. I guess some of them sort of panned out, but nowhere near what I was expecting. Again, not from the die-hard fan's perspective. Would be interested to hear what others who are more Bucco-educated have to say on the subject.


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 Post subject: Re: Steigerwald on Dave Freese's Pirates comments
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:21 am 
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Steigerwald is certainly building up the excuse that the Pirates lots has been cast because of economics. I've already made arguments that in IMO that is BS. Here is the thing about comparing hockey and baseball. Tanking in hockey is a pretty sound rebuilding strategy. Of all people, fans of the Penguins should know that. Tanking in baseball CAN be a sound rebuilding strategy. More often though it is done to save money instead of some noble goal of building an eventual winner. Lets compare the Pirates and Astros for a second. The Stros did a complete tank job over 5 years of rebuilding and had payrolls so paltry it would even make Bob Nutting blush. But then what happened? Stros got good and started spending the war chest they accumulated. The Astros are spending to sustain success. In comparison Bob Nutting banked his war chest and froze the payroll as soon as winning got just a little bit expensive. Stros are an example of how to tank and what to do when the tanking pays offs. They tanked with a long term purpose of winning. The Pirates talk that talk but at the end of the day for them it was only about saving a few shekels.

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 Post subject: Re: Steigerwald on Dave Freese's Pirates comments
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:06 am 
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please tell me of any mlb owner who got financially hosed owning an mlb team..theres no rule in sports saying nutting has to turn a profit every fucking day he owns the team.. sick of the small market bullshit. he knew what he got into buying team..he could god forbid ;lose money for the sake of winning once or twice.. Indians seem to win; tigers; astros' royals...we happen to have pro sports worse owner in cheap bastard nutting. hes making a tidy profit being a cheap bastard. when he does sell if ever he will make tens if not hundreds off millions.. hes a world class asshole.


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 Post subject: Re: Steigerwald on Dave Freese's Pirates comments
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:49 am 
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bam morris wrote:
please tell me of any mlb owner who got financially hosed owning an mlb team..theres no rule in sports saying nutting has to turn a profit every fucking day he owns the team.. sick of the small market bullshit. he knew what he got into buying team..he could god forbid ;lose money for the sake of winning once or twice.. Indians seem to win; tigers; astros' royals...we happen to have pro sports worse owner in cheap bastard nutting. hes making a tidy profit being a cheap bastard. when he does sell if ever he will make tens if not hundreds off millions.. hes a world class asshole.


I'm personally a believer that a business owner has the right turn a profit however he sees fit (so long as he's not breaking any laws or ethical boundaries).

I don't necessarily blame Nutting for gaming the system. I wish he wouldn't do it, but I find it hard to believe that your average person would turn down nearly guaranteed millions of dollars in profit, no matter how rich you are.

I'd prefer the system be fixed so it isn't so easily exploited.

I don't know baseball well enough to say what that fix is, but there has to be something.


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 Post subject: Re: Steigerwald on Dave Freese's Pirates comments
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:04 pm 
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id love a salary cap...but I bet if there was one pirates would not meet it.. they would need a salary basement to make them spend.. id like to think if I was owner my joy would come from competing with the other owners to win rather then worrying bout profit in my bank.. like horse racing. I imagine most owners lose money and enjoy the sport.. George stienbrenner didn't give a shit about money unless he was winning..he may have lost money many years over paying his talent. but recouped it eventually.. nutting is a miser playing the fans for idiots..


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 Post subject: Re: Steigerwald on Dave Freese's Pirates comments
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:51 pm 
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I think a salary cap would be fun to watch only because its existence would call Nutting out on his bullshit.


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 Post subject: Re: Steigerwald on Dave Freese's Pirates comments
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:29 pm 
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Ice wrote:
I think a salary cap would be fun to watch only because its existence would call Nutting out on his bullshit.

anything that would tarnish that miser would be welcomed by me..he should be ashamed but hes not.


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 Post subject: Re: Steigerwald on Dave Freese's Pirates comments
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:56 am 
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Yep, as much as Steigerwald railed on Nutting, he is also playing the angle that there nothing Nutting can do and spending more money wouldn't help. BULLSHIT! They had a nice 3 year window with the stars fucking aligned! Bad cubs team, weak NL. Mediocre Cards teams. And they went FUCKING CHEAP!!!! That dickhead left that out of the article. Motherfucker is talking out both sides of his mouth.

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 Post subject: Re: Steigerwald on Dave Freese's Pirates comments
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:07 am 
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bam morris wrote:
id love a salary cap...but I bet if there was one pirates would not meet it.. they would need a salary basement to make them spend.. id like to think if I was owner my joy would come from competing with the other owners to win rather then worrying bout profit in my bank.. like horse racing. I imagine most owners lose money and enjoy the sport.. George stienbrenner didn't give a shit about money unless he was winning..he may have lost money many years over paying his talent. but recouped it eventually.. nutting is a miser playing the fans for idiots..


i don't even want a salary cap. I want a salary basement. make it 115 million. But union Prez Tony Clark is about as good at negotiating as pet rock.

As SteelPro said, tanking can be a sound strategy. Look at the Phils right now. They are tanking BIG TIME. 45 million payroll. But they are building a roster of young studs and they will compete soon. And they will spend the war chest when the time is right. The pirates? They just keep steady at around the 5th lowest payroll and convince the rubes that they are competing each year.

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 Post subject: Re: Steigerwald on Dave Freese's Pirates comments
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:16 am 
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R S wrote:
bam morris wrote:
id love a salary cap...but I bet if there was one pirates would not meet it.. they would need a salary basement to make them spend.. id like to think if I was owner my joy would come from competing with the other owners to win rather then worrying bout profit in my bank.. like horse racing. I imagine most owners lose money and enjoy the sport.. George stienbrenner didn't give a shit about money unless he was winning..he may have lost money many years over paying his talent. but recouped it eventually.. nutting is a miser playing the fans for idiots..


i don't even want a salary cap. I want a salary basement. make it 115 million. But union Prez Tony Clark is about as good at negotiating as pet rock.

As SteelPro said, tanking can be a sound strategy. Look at the Phils right now. They are tanking BIG TIME. 45 million payroll. But they are building a roster of young studs and they will compete soon. And they will spend the war chest when the time is right. The pirates? They just keep steady at around the 5th lowest payroll and convince the rubes that they are competing each year.


All a floor and cap would do is shift the excuses. This team is F'd as long as Nutting owns it. Lets look at how baseball and the Pirates would look under an NHL style cap. NHL has a $55M floor and $75M cap. Baseball has roughly 2.3 times the revenues as the NHL. Put that multiplier on MLB and you get to about $126 million floor and a $173 million cap. Ok, so The Bucs would now have to spend $30-40 million more to reach a floor. I'm sure a good chuck of that would be made up of subsidies from additional revenue sharing. So how would the Pirates operate under such a a structure? You can almost guarantee the club will keep payroll near the floor. So the Cubs, Cards, and even the Brewers will continue to out spend the Bucs by a significant chunk. Now since the Pirates can't skimp on salary where will they skimp that is not bound by a cap? And since high revenue teams can't spend on roster payroll where will they look to invest to find advantages? My guess is the Pirates would slash the shit out of the scouting department. I mean what is the point of searching for cheap talent when you have to pay up to a floor anyway? From a business/profit standpoint scouting loses its cost efficiency when you have a floor/cap. So they likely close or sell their dominican academy, slash budget of the scouting department, pare down their number of minor league affiliates from 8 to 5. They probably try to nickle and dime on major league coaching staff too. Hurdle and Searage are expensive options. They will find guys with shorter resumes to take those jobs for probably half the salary. Meanwhile teams that were throwing money away on overpaid/underperforming veteran talent on the MLB roster will no longer be able to do that. Instead they'll shift to spend more on resources for scouting and coaching staff. Searage will get a hefty raise to be the Cubs new pitching coach. The Yankees will the buy the Pirates dominican training academy. The net result will be the same. The Pirates will still be run by a cheap miser and the team will continue a second tier team. I think this system would help the bigger spenders more than the small market clubs.

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 Post subject: Re: Steigerwald on Dave Freese's Pirates comments
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:21 pm 
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Ice wrote:
I think a salary cap would be fun to watch only because its existence would call Nutting out on his bullshit.

Agreed - it would even the playing field and put total responsibility on the Pirates to manage the cap and pressure them to make the right moves in order to compete. No more blaming the Cubs for going out and giving $100M contracts to multiple players on their current rosters.


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 Post subject: Re: Steigerwald on Dave Freese's Pirates comments
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:07 pm 
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I am with Pro
The premise of the article is wrong as it completely falls to mention:
Other small franchises that have had success;
What the pirates actually did do when they won .. which is fuck all; and
There is zero defense for how the bucks do business. Their business model is sound .... to them.

Stop going to the park and watching them
It's th only way anything will happen


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 Post subject: Re: Steigerwald on Dave Freese's Pirates comments
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:48 pm 
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I went back and looked at the change.org petition asking Nutting to see the team.

Pirates have achieved a dubious stat.

They are the only team in Major League Baseball to have not signed a single Major League free agent.

Every other team has signed at least one.

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 Post subject: Re: Steigerwald on Dave Freese's Pirates comments
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:23 pm 
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SteelPro wrote:
R S wrote:
bam morris wrote:
id love a salary cap...but I bet if there was one pirates would not meet it.. they would need a salary basement to make them spend.. id like to think if I was owner my joy would come from competing with the other owners to win rather then worrying bout profit in my bank.. like horse racing. I imagine most owners lose money and enjoy the sport.. George stienbrenner didn't give a shit about money unless he was winning..he may have lost money many years over paying his talent. but recouped it eventually.. nutting is a miser playing the fans for idiots..


i don't even want a salary cap. I want a salary basement. make it 115 million. But union Prez Tony Clark is about as good at negotiating as pet rock.

As SteelPro said, tanking can be a sound strategy. Look at the Phils right now. They are tanking BIG TIME. 45 million payroll. But they are building a roster of young studs and they will compete soon. And they will spend the war chest when the time is right. The pirates? They just keep steady at around the 5th lowest payroll and convince the rubes that they are competing each year.


All a floor and cap would do is shift the excuses. This team is F'd as long as Nutting owns it. Lets look at how baseball and the Pirates would look under an NHL style cap. NHL has a $55M floor and $75M cap. Baseball has roughly 2.3 times the revenues as the NHL. Put that multiplier on MLB and you get to about $126 million floor and a $173 million cap. Ok, so The Bucs would now have to spend $30-40 million more to reach a floor. I'm sure a good chuck of that would be made up of subsidies from additional revenue sharing. So how would the Pirates operate under such a a structure? You can almost guarantee the club will keep payroll near the floor. So the Cubs, Cards, and even the Brewers will continue to out spend the Bucs by a significant chunk. Now since the Pirates can't skimp on salary where will they skimp that is not bound by a cap? And since high revenue teams can't spend on roster payroll where will they look to invest to find advantages? My guess is the Pirates would slash the shit out of the scouting department. I mean what is the point of searching for cheap talent when you have to pay up to a floor anyway? From a business/profit standpoint scouting loses its cost efficiency when you have a floor/cap. So they likely close or sell their dominican academy, slash budget of the scouting department, pare down their number of minor league affiliates from 8 to 5. They probably try to nickle and dime on major league coaching staff too. Hurdle and Searage are expensive options. They will find guys with shorter resumes to take those jobs for probably half the salary. Meanwhile teams that were throwing money away on overpaid/underperforming veteran talent on the MLB roster will no longer be able to do that. Instead they'll shift to spend more on resources for scouting and coaching staff. Searage will get a hefty raise to be the Cubs new pitching coach. The Yankees will the buy the Pirates dominican training academy. The net result will be the same. The Pirates will still be run by a cheap miser and the team will continue a second tier team. I think this system would help the bigger spenders more than the small market clubs.

well put and I agree...wonder if mlb will ever get a cap? the current system blows..and our owner would still suck ass.. id hate the pirates leaving pnc park...so I fear a fan backlash might make the miser run for greener pastures elsewhere where he can get sweetheart deal to move into a new park. sad situation are the pirates.


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 Post subject: Re: Steigerwald on Dave Freese's Pirates comments
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:52 am 
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R S wrote:
Yep, as much as Steigerwald railed on Nutting, he is also playing the angle that there nothing Nutting can do and spending more money wouldn't help. BULLSHIT! They had a nice 3 year window with the stars fucking aligned! Bad cubs team, weak NL. Mediocre Cards teams. And they went FUCKING CHEAP!!!! That dickhead left that out of the article. Motherfucker is talking out both sides of his mouth.


Nutting is the Mike/Paul Brown of MLB. Puddle around with mediocre to bad teams but turn a profit.

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