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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:30 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
So you get the same enjoyment from the Steelers beating Cleveland as you do from them beating New England?

The exact same enjoyment?

Hard to say...if the Steelers ever, you know, actually beat the Pats, well...

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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:47 pm 
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swissvale72 wrote:
You're the one calling me a pussy, but accusing me of using insults. That's nice, professor. The only point I'm ceding is that if you would rather our opponent have no injuries so that you can enjoy the game more...by your standards, then good for you. My standards are different. I don't worry about enjoying the game. So for me, your premise is a false premise


But Swiss, you have not shown why any of my premises are false. You just say they are. Let's have an argument.

And in my defense, my saying that you are a pussy only applies to your fandom and not other spheres of your life. And I concluded you are a pussy fan via a valid argument (modus ponens).

By all means, you are free to show the premises that lead to the conclusion that you are a pussy fan are unsound. Please do!

I enjoy the games whether opposing starters are in or out. I fear you have misunderstood a very elementary argument.

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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:53 pm 
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Jobus Rum wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
So you get the same enjoyment from the Steelers beating Cleveland as you do from them beating New England?

The exact same enjoyment?

Hard to say...if the Steelers ever, you know, actually beat the Pats, well...


We've actually lived to see the Steelers beat the Patriots when the Pats were at full strength.

2011 was not that long ago.

The reason I asked Swiss about Cleveland is by wishing lots of injuries on New England, you want to knock their talent level towards the lesser teams like Cleveland (OK...Cleveland was an exaggeration).

The only distinguishing characteristic would then be the uniforms they wear.

Whatever you personally feel about Lit going full bore logic here...you have to admit it's sweeter to beat the good teams than the bad teams precisely because the good teams are good.

You want to test your team's mettle against the best teams to prove YOU are the best.

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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:24 pm 
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Sweeter to beat New England than Cleveland, but just as sweet to beat them with or without Gronk. As I've said, do I think any of those fucks enjoyed their win any less cuz AB was out??


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:03 am 
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swissvale72 wrote:
Sweeter to beat New England than Cleveland, but just as sweet to beat them with or without Gronk. As I've said, do I think any of those fucks enjoyed their win any less cuz AB was out??


Who cares what they thought?

Explore the question without emotion.

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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:07 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
swissvale72 wrote:
You're the one calling me a pussy, but accusing me of using insults. That's nice, professor. The only point I'm ceding is that if you would rather our opponent have no injuries so that you can enjoy the game more...by your standards, then good for you. My standards are different. I don't worry about enjoying the game. So for me, your premise is a false premise


But Swiss, you have not shown why any of my premises are false. You just say they are. Let's have an argument.

And in my defense, my saying that you are a pussy only applies to your fandom and not other spheres of your life. And I concluded you are a pussy fan via a valid argument (modus ponens).

By all means, you are free to show the premises that lead to the conclusion that you are a pussy fan are unsound. Please do!

I enjoy the games whether opposing starters are in or out. I fear you have misunderstood a very elementary argument.


It's not up to me to prove I'm not; it's up to you to prove I am. You saying that you have doesn't make it true.

And I've misunderstood nothing. You've advanced a flawed argument around Steeler Fans Best Interest, degree to which one enjoys games, etc. And again, your method of argument is to make a statement, declare it true, and then state that the other person needs to disprove it. Nice trick if you can pull it off. Maybe your students buy that bullshit; I'm not.

Maybe you haven't checked the Rooting for Injury OP in the other forum. Apparently, plenty of pussy fans on this esteemed website according to The Professor Still Lit.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:11 am 
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Jeemie wrote:
swissvale72 wrote:
Sweeter to beat New England than Cleveland, but just as sweet to beat them with or without Gronk. As I've said, do I think any of those fucks enjoyed their win any less cuz AB was out??


Who cares what they thought?

Explore the question without emotion.


I'm just making a comparison, and disagreeing with a false premise, in my opinion, that we enjoy the wins more when the opponent is at full strength. Your comparing a win vs. New England to a win vs. Cleveland is a false comparison. The more apt comparison is a win vs. New England when they have all their players to a win when they do not. Earth to Jeems. WHEN does an NFL team have ALL of its important players available??

Given a choice, facing a critical opponent with them at full strength versus missing a key player, I'll take the latter every time. My guess....most on this site would as well. No emotion, just reality. But if you disagree, that's your choice. I'll go for the option that increases my team's chances of winning every time.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:49 am 
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Jeemie wrote:
Jobus Rum wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
So you get the same enjoyment from the Steelers beating Cleveland as you do from them beating New England?

The exact same enjoyment?

Hard to say...if the Steelers ever, you know, actually beat the Pats, well...


We've actually lived to see the Steelers beat the Patriots when the Pats were at full strength.

2011 was not that long ago.

The reason I asked Swiss about Cleveland is by wishing lots of injuries on New England, you want to knock their talent level towards the lesser teams like Cleveland (OK...Cleveland was an exaggeration).

The only distinguishing characteristic would then be the uniforms they wear.



Whatever you personally feel about Lit going full bore logic here...you have to admit it's sweeter to beat the good teams than the bad teams precisely because the good teams are good.

You want to test your team's mettle against the best teams to prove YOU are the best.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:08 am 
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swissvale72 wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
swissvale72 wrote:
You're the one calling me a pussy, but accusing me of using insults. That's nice, professor. The only point I'm ceding is that if you would rather our opponent have no injuries so that you can enjoy the game more...by your standards, then good for you. My standards are different. I don't worry about enjoying the game. So for me, your premise is a false premise


But Swiss, you have not shown why any of my premises are false. You just say they are. Let's have an argument.

And in my defense, my saying that you are a pussy only applies to your fandom and not other spheres of your life. And I concluded you are a pussy fan via a valid argument (modus ponens).

By all means, you are free to show the premises that lead to the conclusion that you are a pussy fan are unsound. Please do!


I enjoy the games whether opposing starters are in or out. I fear you have misunderstood a very elementary argument.


It's not up to me to prove I'm not; it's up to you to prove I am. You saying that you have doesn't make it true.

And I've misunderstood nothing. You've advanced a flawed argument around Steeler Fans Best Interest, degree to which one enjoys games, etc. And again, your method of argument is to make a statement, declare it true, and then state that the other person needs to disprove it. Nice trick if you can pull it off. Maybe your students buy that bullshit; I'm not.

Maybe you haven't checked the Rooting for Injury OP in the other forum. Apparently, plenty of pussy fans on this esteemed website according to The Professor Still Lit.


Swiss, I myself, not you, put forward a few arguments that advance certain conclusions about your position on rooting for injuries.

The arguments under dispute are therefore mine, not yours.

In case you have already forgotten, I provided you with three arguments.

You have since then failed to show in any way at all why I am wrong about any of it.

You again state I have given a flawed argument. But of course you fail to say why. I did not merely give a statement and declare it to be true. That's what you are doing. I have given arguments. Major premise, minor premise, conclusion. These are syllogisms. Valid forms of argumentation. Not assertions. Arguments. What is under dispute, therefore, is not the form of my arguments, but the soundness of the premises. Which you have not bothered to assess.

So to repeat, your position on injuries:
1. Seeks inferior quality wins
2. Seeks inferior pleasure
3. Is a pussy fan position

It is not you who needs to be proved wrong, it is me. Because I am the one who gave arguments.

Refute them, dear Swiss.

You may not buy my BS, but you sure as fuck haven't refuted it.

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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:08 am 
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So let me get this straight, Lit. You spew bullshit...you sort of admit that it's bullshit...but according to the rules of the philosophy department, it stands until I definitively refute it.

That's good work if you can get it.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:20 am 
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R S wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
We've actually lived to see the Steelers beat the Patriots when the Pats were at full strength.

2011 was not that long ago.

The reason I asked Swiss about Cleveland is by wishing lots of injuries on New England, you want to knock their talent level towards the lesser teams like Cleveland (OK...Cleveland was an exaggeration).

The only distinguishing characteristic would then be the uniforms they wear.



Whatever you personally feel about Lit going full bore logic here...you have to admit it's sweeter to beat the good teams than the bad teams precisely because the good teams are good.

You want to test your team's mettle against the best teams to prove YOU are the best.


Image


Why is it wrong?

I'm not saying I wouldn't enjoy a win against a weakened Pats' team...but I definitely enjoyed the 2011 win over them v the 2008 win.

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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:56 am 
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swissvale72 wrote:
So let me get this straight, Lit. You spew bullshit...you sort of admit that it's bullshit...but according to the rules of the philosophy department, it stands until I definitively refute it.

That's good work if you can get it.


No Swiss, I do not in fact think it is BS. I was echoing your own language. I have provided arguments that advance conclusions about your position on rooting for injuries. Arguments you so far are unable to refute. If you do not like those conclusions, by all means, explain why the conclusions do not follow from the premises that advance them.

Definitvely refute? Who cares about definitive. You have yet to do anything to show why my arguments are poor at all, let alone definitively bad.

Instead, you keep deflecting by ranting about my profession. Who gives s fuck what you think about me or my profession. If you're going to claim my arguments are shit, show why.

You're all sound and fury. Show me the substance. Tell us why the arguments fail to secure the conclusions provided.

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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:57 am 
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Jeemie wrote:
R S wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
We've actually lived to see the Steelers beat the Patriots when the Pats were at full strength.

2011 was not that long ago.

The reason I asked Swiss about Cleveland is by wishing lots of injuries on New England, you want to knock their talent level towards the lesser teams like Cleveland (OK...Cleveland was an exaggeration).

The only distinguishing characteristic would then be the uniforms they wear.



Whatever you personally feel about Lit going full bore logic here...you have to admit it's sweeter to beat the good teams than the bad teams precisely because the good teams are good.

You want to test your team's mettle against the best teams to prove YOU are the best.


Image


Why is it wrong?

I'm not saying I wouldn't enjoy a win against a weakened Pats' team...but I definitely enjoyed the 2011 win over them v the 2008 win.


Yes bc my first argument is unassailable. Wins against better opponents are more quality wins. It likely (according to my second argument) follows that those wins are more pleasurable.

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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:27 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:58 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
swissvale72 wrote:
So let me get this straight, Lit. You spew bullshit...you sort of admit that it's bullshit...but according to the rules of the philosophy department, it stands until I definitively refute it.

That's good work if you can get it.


No Swiss, I do not in fact think it is BS. I was echoing your own language. I have provided arguments that advance conclusions about your position on rooting for injuries. Arguments you so far are unable to refute. If you do not like those conclusions, by all means, explain why the conclusions do not follow from the premises that advance them.

Definitvely refute? Who cares about definitive. You have yet to do anything to show why my arguments are poor at all, let alone definitively bad.

Instead, you keep deflecting by ranting about my profession. Who gives s fuck what you think about me or my profession. If you're going to claim my arguments are shit, show why.

You're all sound and fury. Show me the substance. Tell us why the arguments fail to secure the conclusions provided.


I'm not ranting about your profession, Lit; I'm ranting about YOU within your profession. Notice I say nothing negative about your fellow college professors, Hesske & Stosh. You think that might have something to do with those two guys not being full of shit, not spewing endless mumbo-jumbo? Again, you make a statement and then contend it's true unless someone proves you wrong. Burden of proof is on you, Egghead.

All you've proven is that beating a team that's playing at full strength might be more pleasurable for you. And, that you place a higher priority on your enjoyment of the game than your team, y'know, actually winning the game.

And don't think you're twisting the argument hasn't gone unnoticed. I never suggested that beating the Patriots wasn't a bigger deal than beating the Browns. I DID say that beating the Patriots with their best players perhaps injured wasn't going to diminish my enjoy of that win one single bit. And given that those injuries, part of the game, increase my team's chances of winning, I'll be rooting for those injuries. And, given your position that that's pussy fandom, well....the geeky professor must think there's plenty of pussies on this esteemed website. Check out the OP in the other forum. It's not exactly scientific, but it's a far cry more legit than your simply stating your personal preference.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:26 pm 
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2011 was a looooooong time ago...

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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:55 pm 
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Jobus Rum wrote:
2011 was a looooooong time ago...

6 years. Also time is relative.

You're welcome.

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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:10 am 
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swissvale72 wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
swissvale72 wrote:
So let me get this straight, Lit. You spew bullshit...you sort of admit that it's bullshit...but according to the rules of the philosophy department, it stands until I definitively refute it.

That's good work if you can get it.


No Swiss, I do not in fact think it is BS. I was echoing your own language. I have provided arguments that advance conclusions about your position on rooting for injuries. Arguments you so far are unable to refute. If you do not like those conclusions, by all means, explain why the conclusions do not follow from the premises that advance them.

Definitvely refute? Who cares about definitive. You have yet to do anything to show why my arguments are poor at all, let alone definitively bad.

Instead, you keep deflecting by ranting about my profession. Who gives s fuck what you think about me or my profession. If you're going to claim my arguments are shit, show why.

You're all sound and fury. Show me the substance. Tell us why the arguments fail to secure the conclusions provided.


I'm not ranting about your profession, Lit; I'm ranting about YOU within your profession. Notice I say nothing negative about your fellow college professors, Hesske & Stosh. You think that might have something to do with those two guys not being full of shit, not spewing endless mumbo-jumbo? Again, you make a statement and then contend it's true unless someone proves you wrong. Burden of proof is on you, Egghead.

All you've proven is that beating a team that's playing at full strength might be more pleasurable for you. And, that you place a higher priority on your enjoyment of the game than your team, y'know, actually winning the game.

And don't think you're twisting the argument hasn't gone unnoticed. I never suggested that beating the Patriots wasn't a bigger deal than beating the Browns. I DID say that beating the Patriots with their best players perhaps injured wasn't going to diminish my enjoy of that win one single bit. And given that those injuries, part of the game, increase my team's chances of winning, I'll be rooting for those injuries. And, given your position that that's pussy fandom, well....the geeky professor must think there's plenty of pussies on this esteemed website. Check out the OP in the other forum. It's not exactly scientific, but it's a far cry more legit than your simply stating your personal preference.


More ranting and BS.

I gave three arguments that advance three conclusions about your position on rooting for injuries. Please point out where I twisted anything.

You STILL have yet to show why the premises that advance those conclusions are unsound or why the conclusions do not follow from the premises given. All you continue to do is merely assert without argument that the conclusions are wrong.

Since you are unwilling and, more likely, unable to show why the premises are unsound or why the conclusions do not follow from the premises, any other pussy fan is welcome to show why I am wrong.

All sound and fury, no substance.

I'm laughing at you because you continue to insist that I am merely declaring myself right. I gave arguments, not assertions. And if you think my conclusions are full of shit, please, show us why the conclusions are wrong. Don't just say they are. Explain why I am wrong.

Now, you're under no obligation to show why I am wrong. You can just move to other topics on the board if you like. I'm such a joke to you seems odd you keep returning to this thread. But you have done fuck all to show why my arguments are wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:23 pm 
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R S wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
Jobus Rum wrote:
Hard to say...if the Steelers ever, you know, actually beat the Pats, well...


We've actually lived to see the Steelers beat the Patriots when the Pats were at full strength.

2011 was not that long ago.

The reason I asked Swiss about Cleveland is by wishing lots of injuries on New England, you want to knock their talent level towards the lesser teams like Cleveland (OK...Cleveland was an exaggeration).

The only distinguishing characteristic would then be the uniforms they wear.



Whatever you personally feel about Lit going full bore logic here...you have to admit it's sweeter to beat the good teams than the bad teams precisely because the good teams are good.

You want to test your team's mettle against the best teams to prove YOU are the best.


Image


First, this GIF makes me throw up in my mouth and want to punch the screen.

Second, unless I'm missing something, the comments are spot on. Beating the Patriots or any quality team is undoubtedly more satisfying than beating weaker opponents.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:57 pm 
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I'm laughing at you, lit...as I'm no longer kidding about your mumbo jumbo
but serious about you being totally full of shit. You've proven nothing. Feel free to argue that you have


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:16 pm 
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Ok, Swiss. You say I have proved nothing, but you have not shown why. I have at least provided arguments. You continue to provide sound and fury.

If it is so obvious that I have proved nothing you'll be able to show why my arguments don't work.

So: explain which premise is unsound. Explain why the conclusions do not follow from the premises provided.

Argument 1 (Quality of wins)

P1: Wins against better quality opponents are objectively better wins.
P2: The better the opposing players (and coaches), the better quality of the opponent.
P3: Therefore, wins against better opposing players (and coaches) are better wins.
Conclusion: Rooting for injuries is rooting for wins of inferior quality.

(Not subjective at all: wins against better players are wins of higher quality: can't wait to see you argue otherwise. I expect you merely to reply that you do not care about quality. Point is, your injury manifesto roots for wins of lower quality. Your not caring is not a refutation.)

Argument 2 (Quality of pleasure)

P1: It is a more and better pleasure to accomplish something difficult than something easy. (P1 is the controversial premise).
P2: Beating a team of higher quality players is more difficult than beating a team of lower quality players.
P3: Therefore, the pleasure of the Steelers beating a team of higher quality players is of higher quality than the pleasure that comes from the Steelers beating a team with lower quality players.
Conclusion: Rooting for injuries is rooting for pleasure of lower quality.

(Regarding P1: I maintain that what is more difficult to accomplish is a pleasure of higher quality. Aiming for pleasures that involve more difficulty and are harder to obtain [e.g., Steelers beating Pats when Pats are at full strength] carry the risk of greater disappointment. So observe that my position of not rooting for injuries because I desire higher quality pleasure and higher quality wins also runs the risk of enduring greater disappointment for the fan. More on this below in argument 3.)

Argument 3 (As a fan, with respect to rooting for injuries, you're a pussy.)

P1: You root for injuries because it decreases risk.
P2: Pussies are risk averse. The pussy seeks to avoid risk as much as possible to guarantee success.
P3: Therefore, you advocate the easiest path to victory as opposed to the highest quality path.
Conclusion: your injury position is a pussy manifesto. You want the competition as weak as possible to ensure success as much as possible.

(You will say you are a prudent fan, not a pussy fan. But of course cowards think the courageous are rash and imprudent. Not calling you a coward. It's an analogy. My honest position is that I do not root for injuries because I favor higher quality of wins and higher quality pleasure. Also, I embrace the increased risk of losing [because I am not a pussy fan, but you will claim I am a stupid fan thus], and therefore enduring pain from the Steelers losing, by wishing for the Steelers to play teams at their best.)

Now, if you think my arguments prove nothing, i.e., if you think my arguments do not secure the conclusions provided, please tell us why.

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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:25 pm 
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I will respond in more detail tomorrow night when I am home in New Hampshire and not needing to type on my phone. Suffice to say though there is risk averse… There is risk embracing… And then there's being fucking stupid. Opting to face the patriots with gronk, with Brady rather than without them is fucking stupid


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:40 pm 
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swissvale72 wrote:
I will respond in more detail tomorrow night when I am home in New Hampshire and not needing to type on my phone. Suffice to say though there is risk averse… There is risk embracing… And then there's being fucking stupid. Opting to face the patriots with gronk, with Brady rather than without them is fucking stupid


Very good. You will observe in my comments that I have already foreseen this objection. As I have said, you seek to reduce risk as much as possible, not have your team face the toughest tests possible.

But we'll have a civil discourse that will benefit us both.

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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:07 am 
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I don't necessarily agree with this, mind you, but how about

P1. As far as the NFL is concerned, all Lombardis are considered equal regardless of how difficult or easy the path in obtaining one
P2. The same pleasure is derived from obtaining any Lombardi regardless of how difficult or easy the path in obtaining one.
P3. Therefore, may as well root for the easiest path to obtaining a Lombardi.

So disagreeing with the idea that more difficult wins (at least insofar as winning a Lombardi is concerned) are necessarily more satisfying than easy wins because even the easiest possible path to winning a Lombardi is still sufficiently difficult as to still make the winning of one immensely satisfying.

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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:23 am 
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Poltargyst wrote:
I don't necessarily agree with this, mind you, but how about

P1. As far as the NFL is concerned, all Lombardis are considered equal regardless of how difficult or easy the path in obtaining one
P2. The same pleasure is derived from obtaining any Lombardi regardless of how difficult or easy the path in obtaining one.
P3. Therefore, may as well root for the easiest path to obtaining a Lombardi.

So disagreeing with the idea that more difficult wins (at least insofar as winning a Lombardi is concerned) are necessarily more satisfying than easy wins because even the easiest possible path to winning a Lombardi is still sufficiently difficult as to still make the winning of one immensely satisfying.


Hi Polt.

See argument two.

Even if you do not experience more intensity of pleasure, I make the claim that the harder won games may be better pleasures bc more difficult to obtain. So the argument also concerns the quality of the pleasure. This is the hardest sell.

But I will wish to argue that some pleasures are better than others, either because of the faculties they engage (reason vs sensation) or bc the pleasure was harder to obtain. In this case, I want to say that a Lombardi secured via a harder strength of schedule is more satisfying than one via an easier strength of schedule because it was harder to obtain. What is up for grabs is whether what is harder to obtain is more satisfying OR a pleasure of higher quality.

_________________
Orangesteel wrote:
We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


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