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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:45 pm 
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it's still yggy wrote:
I think they (all of them) convince themselves of their perceived successes. Outcome of the game is they won. Takeaway was that "we did what we do" faught hard tough league yada yada

Truth is big plays by Ben to AB, td catches by JJ and blocked punt are the real reasons.

But tomlin/art2/Haley insulate themselves in the belief they're doing the right things, and they don't change until they are genuinely challenge. In that usually happens after a multiple game losing stretch or being beat up on by a 1-5 opponent st home. Something unfortunately needs to shock them out of that shell.

That's the negative version. The positive version which I go back-and-forth believing is they do have a plan and it's a good plan but it will simply take some time to roll out and work well. Tomlin is a person who shows he can adjust on the fly and is willing to make changes and the team will learn and improve as the year goes on and be ready.

Truth is probably both of these at the same time


I can practically guarantee that some small part of Tomlin's brain thinks the Steelers lost the AFCCG last year because Le'veon Bell got injured.

Just like he probably thinks he lost to Denver the year before because he didn't have Bell or Brown, and the year before that to Baltimore because no Bell.

Something always seems to come up that provides a convenient excuse...

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:49 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
LakecrestSteeler wrote:
Jesse James is serviceable and nothing more. He is vulture player that picks up scrap opportunities left in the wake of Ben, Brown, Bell and probably Bryant’s presence.


Well, yeah....can't have Pro Bowlers at every position.

But actually, TE is vital for scoring in the red zone. WRs get the flash between the 20s, RBs grind out tough yards... TEs make the dough in the RZ. If we want to be an elite scoring offense, we need much better play from the TEs.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:11 pm 
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So 3TD catches a game instead of just two?

I hear what you are saying but geeesh, James hauled in two TDs Sunday.

With his size, he's a decent RZ target and hasn't shown to have poor hands.

What we need is better and more consistent playcalling.


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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:14 pm 
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Have we ever sent James down the seam for a 15-18 yarder? Ever?

There is so much bullshit with this offense right it drives me nuts. But man do Haley and Tomlin love that little TE screen to James for 3.2 YDS average.


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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:19 pm 
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Orangesteel wrote:
Have we ever sent James down the seam for a 15-18 yarder? Ever?

There is so much bullshit with this offense right it drives me nuts. But man do Haley and Tomlin love that little TE screen to James for 3.2 YDS average.

He takes too long to get there. I'm hoping Vance McDonald will fare better but, honestly, Grimble does that one thing pretty well.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:20 pm 
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955876 wrote:
So 3TD catches a game instead of just two?

I hear what you are saying but geeesh, James hauled in two TDs Sunday.

With his size, he's a decent RZ target and hasn't shown to have poor hands.

What we need is better and more consistent playcalling.

He's just very limited in what he can do to get open and doesn't attract attention or concern from the D.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:21 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
it's still yggy wrote:
I think they (all of them) convince themselves of their perceived successes. Outcome of the game is they won. Takeaway was that "we did what we do" faught hard tough league yada yada

Truth is big plays by Ben to AB, td catches by JJ and blocked punt are the real reasons.

But tomlin/art2/Haley insulate themselves in the belief they're doing the right things, and they don't change until they are genuinely challenge. In that usually happens after a multiple game losing stretch or being beat up on by a 1-5 opponent st home. Something unfortunately needs to shock them out of that shell.

That's the negative version. The positive version which I go back-and-forth believing is they do have a plan and it's a good plan but it will simply take some time to roll out and work well. Tomlin is a person who shows he can adjust on the fly and is willing to make changes and the team will learn and improve as the year goes on and be ready.

Truth is probably both of these at the same time


I can practically guarantee that some small part of Tomlin's brain thinks the Steelers lost the AFCCG last year because Le'veon Bell got injured.

Just like he probably thinks he lost to Denver the year before because he didn't have Bell or Brown, and the year before that to Baltimore because no Bell.

Something always seems to come up that provides a convenient excuse...


No doubt in my mind...


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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:24 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
I can practically guarantee that some small part of Tomlin's brain thinks the Steelers lost the AFCCG last year because Le'veon Bell got injured.

Just like he probably thinks he lost to Denver the year before because he didn't have Bell or Brown, and the year before that to Baltimore because no Bell.

Something always seems to come up that provides a convenient excuse...


We are fortunate to have several clairvoyants here on Steeler Fury.


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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:24 pm 
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955876 wrote:
So 3TD catches a game instead of just two?

I hear what you are saying but geeesh, James hauled in two TDs Sunday.

With his size, he's a decent RZ target and hasn't shown to have poor hands.

What we need is better and more consistent playcalling.

and Jesse did a good job on his two TDs-- just not sure it's sustainable to really stress the D. Just makes the catches when you get an opportunity and protect the football.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:33 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
955876 wrote:
So 3TD catches a game instead of just two?

I hear what you are saying but geeesh, James hauled in two TDs Sunday.

With his size, he's a decent RZ target and hasn't shown to have poor hands.

What we need is better and more consistent playcalling.

He's just very limited in what he can do to get open and doesn't attract attention or concern from the D.


If he isn't attracting attention or concern from the D shouldnt that lead to a bunch of easy TDs?

And I agree on Grimble. He's shown some ability there


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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:42 pm 
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It is more troubling that they did not adjust. Both outside Wr run flies and the TE runs a skinny post. Peppers can only handle one of them. have Rodgers do a crossing route at 10 yardish. Force the defense to change how they are playing.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:43 pm 
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955876 wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
955876 wrote:
So 3TD catches a game instead of just two?

I hear what you are saying but geeesh, James hauled in two TDs Sunday.

With his size, he's a decent RZ target and hasn't shown to have poor hands.

What we need is better and more consistent playcalling.

He's just very limited in what he can do to get open and doesn't attract attention or concern from the D.


If he isn't attracting attention or concern from the D shouldnt that lead to a bunch of easy TDs?

And I agree on Grimble. He's shown some ability there

If he could get more than 5 yards down field it would

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:46 pm 
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jebrick wrote:
It is more troubling that they did not adjust. Both outside Wr run flies and the TE runs a skinny post. Peppers can only handle one of them. have Rodgers do a crossing route at 10 yardish. Force the defense to change how they are playing.

Just running the outside guys on crossing routes 10 yards down field would do it. Outside guy runs a dig or post, inside guy runs a flag or go.

Turn screens into a stop and go-- they bite so hard on the screen action.

Also, different levels crossing-- it's remarkable the lack of imagination utilized.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:14 pm 
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The top two TEs last year in terms of yards (Kelce & Olsen) had 4 and 3 TDs on the season.

James had 3.

My point is that these TE that can move and put up lots of yards but for whatever reason didn't put up a lot of TDs.

I'm not saying James is a stud but at same time don't think a faster TE would necessarily equate to a much better RZ offense. From the 20 maybe. But not when getting down closer. Which we struggle from as well.

Miller was far from a burner and yet he had his share of TDs.

League leader had 8. James (sharing time) was tied for 6th with 3.

The solution can't always be the requirement to field the better athlete in order to win the battle.

I saw a TD on MNF (think it was Vikes game) where the guy was schemed wide the fuck open from down close. How often to we see that here? Ever?


Last edited by 955876 on Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:15 pm 
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Quote:
Also, different levels crossing-- it's remarkable the lack of imagination utilized.


Was vanilla route trees also an edict from Deuce in addition to the mandate to run at all cost?


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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:16 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
955876 wrote:
So 3TD catches a game instead of just two?

I hear what you are saying but geeesh, James hauled in two TDs Sunday.

With his size, he's a decent RZ target and hasn't shown to have poor hands.

What we need is better and more consistent playcalling.

and Jesse did a good job on his two TDs-- just not sure it's sustainable to really stress the D. Just makes the catches when you get an opportunity and protect the football.


Many here had problems with Heath, too. Laughable.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:24 pm 
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Obviously, you seem like a smart guy. Do you watch the NFL, other than when the Steelers are playing?

If so, where do you think Jesse James ranks in the hierarchy of current NFL TEs? How would you rate his ability to attack the deep seam?

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:48 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Obviously, you seem like a smart guy. Do you watch the NFL, other than when the Steelers are playing?

If so, where do you think Jesse James ranks in the hierarchy of current NFL TEs? How would you rate his ability to attack the deep seam?

I'm not entirely sure JJ has ever seen the deep seam, much less attacked it. :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:10 pm 
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I have all 22 as well and Ben made an awful play on that 3rd and 9. If Ben takes a split second to look to his right he would see Ju Ju streaking by his man with safety leaning towards Bryant. All he had to do is throw ball towards sideline into acres of space in end zone for Ju Ju to run under. If not that then Bell wide open underneath running away from Lber with 20 plus yards of green grass in front of him. Instead he threw into teeth of coverage where both Bryant and AB attracted double & in Bryant's case triple team. I get frustration over screens etc but it is plays like this that put bad teams away and have to be made. AB & Bryant did their jobs by opening up the entire right side of the field Ben has to know this and take advantage of it. Instead Steelers let Browns back in the game.

As to the universal criticism of Haley. Yes he deserves a huge chunk, however, we have a veteran play caller who can change plays. He has that option and we cannot run around screaming at the coaches all day when it is obvious to all of us a simple change in play call is needed. That 2nd 1 situation with crap pass to Bell and piss poor 3rd n 1 conversion was right out of the Bruce Arians play book who btw threw a ton of WR screens and hot routes that used to get people so steamed it was comical. Yet now some of the very same posters think Arians walks on water. Funny how that works.


Last edited by steelclan on Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:24 pm 
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Havoc wrote:
I'm officially off the Tomlin train.

I'm not calling for Tomlin's head, but I'm off the train and watching.

This organization DESPERATELY needs a brilliant offensive mind at a high position. We don't have one. SERIOUS problem.

Maybe Haley/Tomlin will adjust enough to get the most out of this personnel group. Or maybe not. I'll believe it when I see it at this point.

So, we've now established that Tomlin is absolutely NOT that "brilliant offensive mind", neither is he the "brilliant defensive coach" everybody expected, nor can he gameplan to save his life...

exactly what fucking purpose does he serve at this point, other than to deflect?!

...enough is enough! :evil:

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:39 pm 
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steelclan wrote:
I have all 22 as well and Ben made an awful play on that 3rd and 9. If Ben takes a split second to look to his right he would see Ju Ju streaking by his man with safety leaning towards Bryant. All he had to do is throw ball towards sideline into acres of space in end zone for Ju Ju to run under. If not that then Bell wide open underneath running away from Lber with 20 plus yards of green grass in front of him. Instead he threw into teeth of coverage where both Bryant and AB attracted double & in Bryant's case triple team. I get frustration over screens etc but it is plays like this that put bad teams away and have to be made. AB & Bryant did their jobs by opening up the entire right side of the field Ben has to know this and take advantage of it. Instead Steelers let Browns back in the game.

As to the universal criticism of Haley. Yes he deserves a huge chunk, however, we have a veteran play caller who can change plays. He has that option and we cannot run around screaming at the coaches all day when it is obvious to all of us a simple change in play call is needed. That 2nd 1 situation with crap pass to Bell and piss poor 3rd n 1 conversion was right out of the Bruce Arians play book who btw threw a ton of WR screens and hot routes that used to get people so steamed it was comical. Yet now some of the very same posters think Arians walks on water. Funny how that works.


Good post & points. I don't take the time to scrub film but did notice in a few occasions Sunday where we had a wide open option yet Ben was locked-in looking only where he wanted to look.

Seems when the offense is struggling is when his tunnel vision rears its ugly head. Would the offense struggle so as much if he would find these wide open receivers? Likely not.

Seems to that he will ignore players he doesn't trust at these times as well. Maybe the vet Hunter should have gotten the nod over JuJu. Maybe that would not have mattered either.

And while I don't place the MOST blame at Ben's feet, I have felt he has had his hand in the mix with some real stinker games & decisions.


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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:48 pm 
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955876 wrote:
steelclan wrote:
I have all 22 as well and Ben made an awful play on that 3rd and 9. If Ben takes a split second to look to his right he would see Ju Ju streaking by his man with safety leaning towards Bryant. All he had to do is throw ball towards sideline into acres of space in end zone for Ju Ju to run under. If not that then Bell wide open underneath running away from Lber with 20 plus yards of green grass in front of him. Instead he threw into teeth of coverage where both Bryant and AB attracted double & in Bryant's case triple team. I get frustration over screens etc but it is plays like this that put bad teams away and have to be made. AB & Bryant did their jobs by opening up the entire right side of the field Ben has to know this and take advantage of it. Instead Steelers let Browns back in the game.

As to the universal criticism of Haley. Yes he deserves a huge chunk, however, we have a veteran play caller who can change plays. He has that option and we cannot run around screaming at the coaches all day when it is obvious to all of us a simple change in play call is needed. That 2nd 1 situation with crap pass to Bell and piss poor 3rd n 1 conversion was right out of the Bruce Arians play book who btw threw a ton of WR screens and hot routes that used to get people so steamed it was comical. Yet now some of the very same posters think Arians walks on water. Funny how that works.


Good post & points. I don't take the time to scrub film but did notice in a few occasions Sunday where we had a wide open option yet Ben was locked-in looking only where he wanted to look.

Seems when the offense is struggling is when his tunnel vision rears its ugly head. Would the offense struggle so as much if he would find these wide open receivers? Likely not.

Seems to that he will ignore players he doesn't trust at these times as well. Maybe the vet Hunter should have gotten the nod over JuJu. Maybe that would not have mattered either.

And while I don't place the MOST blame at Ben's feet, I have felt he has had his hand in the mix with some real stinker games & decisions.


Fair cop and given success of that play scheme rather than execution wise it is a shame Steelers didn't run that more. AB & Bryant had entire Browns D following them like a creepy stalker on speed. If this offense wants to be what it can be Steelers have to take advantage of teams willing to put just about half their defense into stopping Bryant/AB. I like DHB as a teamer but not as WR rather add in Hunter's ability to run 9s/posts and it create even more space. Steelers had a rookie safety ready to bite on just about anything and did very little to test him.


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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:37 pm 
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steelclan wrote:
I have all 22 as well and Ben made an awful play on that 3rd and 9. If Ben takes a split second to look to his right he would see Ju Ju streaking by his man with safety leaning towards Bryant. All he had to do is throw ball towards sideline into acres of space in end zone for Ju Ju to run under. If not that then Bell wide open underneath running away from Lber with 20 plus yards of green grass in front of him. Instead he threw into teeth of coverage where both Bryant and AB attracted double & in Bryant's case triple team. I get frustration over screens etc but it is plays like this that put bad teams away and have to be made. AB & Bryant did their jobs by opening up the entire right side of the field Ben has to know this and take advantage of it. Instead Steelers let Browns back in the game.

As to the universal criticism of Haley. Yes he deserves a huge chunk, however, we have a veteran play caller who can change plays. He has that option and we cannot run around screaming at the coaches all day when it is obvious to all of us a simple change in play call is needed. That 2nd 1 situation with crap pass to Bell and piss poor 3rd n 1 conversion was right out of the Bruce Arians play book who btw threw a ton of WR screens and hot routes that used to get people so steamed it was comical. Yet now some of the very same posters think Arians walks on water. Funny how that works.

Ben can only change from certain called plays to certain audibles, especially when the play comes in late. The most likely is a change between an interior run play and a different run play or interior run play and outside screen. There is an occasional opportunity for a WR running a check with me route on a run play. Very difficult with 10-12 seconds on play clock to change formation and give routes to all the receivers, which is what it would be to switch from, say a WR screen to smash combo on one side and double post on the other. I think the adjustments at the line are generally small ones in this offense. They probably have a handful of go-to audible options for Ben.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:48 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
955876 wrote:
So 3TD catches a game instead of just two?

I hear what you are saying but geeesh, James hauled in two TDs Sunday.

With his size, he's a decent RZ target and hasn't shown to have poor hands.

What we need is better and more consistent playcalling.

He's just very limited in what he can do to get open and doesn't attract attention or concern from the D.

+100....Just in terms of passing. I have not watched him enough in blocking situations, but suspect his build can’t make him that dominant.


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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:54 pm 
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James blocked ok he struggles whenever he has to block someone in space. It is one many reasons the screen love affair is so puzzling.


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