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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:09 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Tundralag wrote:
My Take.. I don't give a fuck who plays what games.. as long as we hoist number 7 I gives a rats ass..


I think this is Swiss' positions as well. It does not, however, at all address whether my statements about quality and the relation of pleasure to quality are true or plausible.

Not caring does not affect quality of opponent and the necessarily related quality of the win.

Nor does not caring speak to or against the amount of pleasure produced relative to the quality of a win.



I think you are correct.. For sure I feel better and more proud to be a Steeler fan when we whip the snot out of a team we are suppose to lose or we are the underdog...
and the same goes for being pissed off for a week when we lose to some scrub team we should pound


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:29 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Tundralag wrote:
My Take.. I don't give a fuck who plays what games.. as long as we hoist number 7 I gives a rats ass..


I think this is Swiss' positions as well. It does not, however, at all address whether my statements about quality and the relation of pleasure to quality are true or plausible.

Not caring does not affect quality of opponent and the necessarily related quality of the win.

Nor does not caring speak to or against the amount of pleasure produced relative to the quality of a win.


I haven’t read through the all comments, but I don’t think anyone, even Swiss, would disagree that a Steelers win vs the Pats this year would be 100% more satisfying than a win vs the Browns, this year. To say otherwise would be disingenuous.

Now, that same logic naturally applies to a win vs a full strength Pats squad vs a < 100% squad, which is to Lit’s point.

Yet, I get it if someone doesn’t really care how the Steelers arrive at #7.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:06 pm 
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randomsteelerfan wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Tundralag wrote:
My Take.. I don't give a fuck who plays what games.. as long as we hoist number 7 I gives a rats ass..


I think this is Swiss' positions as well. It does not, however, at all address whether my statements about quality and the relation of pleasure to quality are true or plausible.

Not caring does not affect quality of opponent and the necessarily related quality of the win.

Nor does not caring speak to or against the amount of pleasure produced relative to the quality of a win.


I haven’t read through the all comments, but I don’t think anyone, even Swiss, would disagree that a Steelers win vs the Pats this year would be 100% more satisfying than a win vs the Browns, this year. To say otherwise would be disingenuous.

Now, that same logic naturally applies to a win vs a full strength Pats squad vs a < 100% squad, which is to Lit’s point.

Yet, I get it if someone doesn’t really care how the Steelers arrive at #7.


Not comparing win vs. Browns to win vs. Pats. Comparing win vs. Pats at full strenght to win vs. Pats if they have significant injuries. To me, doesn't matter how we win the same game, and if they're depleted by injury, gives us a better chance.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:30 am 
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Point is, a win against a fully loaded Pats team is a higher quality win.

You not caring whether the win is higher quality or not does not affect my argument that your SBI injury stance advocates for lower quality wins.

That's the point about beating Pats more satisfying than beating Browns.

I repeat: it not mattering to you is not relevant to the argument.

I repeat: your SBI, as you present it, seeks the good in terms quantity rather than quality.

Like you say, all about fan perspective.

Me? I get pleasure from higher quality things more than from a higher quantity of lower quality things. If I had to choose between an unlimited supply of Bud Light, which is awful, and a single bottle of the world's finest Scotch, gonna go with the Scotch.

Rooting for injuries is vulgar not because of some pretentious high minded ideas about humans, but also because it advocates for lower quality pleasures.

YOU may be no less pleased by a win against an injury-filled Pats team. You might be the sort that would choose unlimited Bud Light, too. :D

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We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:54 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
Point is, a win against a fully loaded Pats team is a higher quality win.

You not caring whether the win is higher quality or not does not affect my argument that your SBI injury stance advocates for lower quality wins.

That's the point about beating Pats more satisfying than beating Browns.

I repeat: it not mattering to you is not relevant to the argument.

I repeat: your SBI, as you present it, seeks the good in terms quantity rather than quality.

Like you say, all about fan perspective.

Me? I get pleasure from higher quality things more than from a higher quantity of lower quality things. If I had to choose between an unlimited supply of Bud Light, which is awful, and a single bottle of the world's finest Scotch, gonna go with the Scotch.

Rooting for injuries is vulgar not because of some pretentious high minded ideas about humans, but also because it advocates for lower quality pleasures.

YOU may be no less pleased by a win against an injury-filled Pats team. You might be the sort that would choose unlimited Bud Light, too. :D


You should really take a break from the mumbo-jumbo on weekends, Professor...save it for your students.

For the record, you won't find me touching Bud Light. And I know it has much to do with advertising, but I always find it striking when winning championship locker rooms are filled with shitty Bud Light rather than a decent beer.

It's like this. If you're crawling through the fuckin' desert, parched beyond belief, needing liquid in the worse way, little strength left in your body....and a savior appears. He offers you a Bud Light right now....or if you do three backflips, stand on your head, run three miles, you can have the finest scotch, what do you do? That's us in the playoffs versus the New England Patriots. I'll take the win, regardless of circumstance. We're so fuckin' starved for this that however it happens will be of sufficiently high quality.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:07 pm 
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Of course one takes the win. That response shows you do not understand the argument.

This is about your rooting for injuries stance.

It's only mumbo jumbo if you can't understand the argument. Why are you having such trouble with it?

http://www.historyofethics.org/122007/1 ... oher.shtml

Pretty sure I take the Bud Light because it has more water in it and I do not want to die. And life is more pleasant than being dead. What a dumb fucking repsonse.

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We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:13 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Of course one takes the win. That response shows you do not understand the argument.

This is about your rooting for injuries stance.

It's only mumbo jumbo if you can't understand the argument. Why are you having such trouble with it?

http://www.historyofethics.org/122007/1 ... oher.shtml

Pretty sure I take the Bud Light because it has more water in it and I do not want to die. And life is more pleasant than being dead. What a dumb fucking repsonse.


And a win is more pleasant than a loss. I understand the argument perfectly.

It's this simple, Professor.

Steelers beat the Patriots in the playoffs, and I'll be over the fuckin' moon. If the Patriots have Brady, don't have Brady, have Gronk, don't have Gronk....won't matter. I won't enjoy the win at a higher level if their lineup is intact. The game starts and Brady goes down with an injury, I'll have the same response as when Carson Palmer went down in the '05 Wild Card game....pure joy....only escalated a few notches.

And inside, you'll be happy about it, too.....but wrestling with your own morality, imposing some type of bizarre penance on yourself, writing a self-loathing treatise about it, due to being pleased that it happened, even though you weren't "rooting" for it.....as though that somehow makes your position morally superior to mine. Bullshit!! Mine's just more honest.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:44 pm 
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The irony. If you were honest you'd admit your injury stance is more about avoiding pain of loss than pleasure in victory.

Of course my position increases the risk of pain. Better competition makes losing more likely. But the pleasure of the victory is sweeter.

It is simple indeed: your position is pain avoidance. A pussy fan's manifesto.

As to the rest of what you wrote: now that is some mumbo jumbo. :P

Edit:
Needed to add - of course a win is more pleasant than defeat. But that is irrelevant to my argument that the pleasure of beating better competition exceeds the pleasure of beating inferior competition. You root for injuries bc that increases the chances of victory. But that's the pussy fan manifesto: rooting for less risk to increase likelihood of victory.

I don't root for injuries. I do prefer victory to defeat. And these two positions are perfectly compatible.

So deep down I do want what you want: for the Steelers to hoist another Lombardi. But that does not affect my argument.

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We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:09 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
The irony. If you were honest you'd admit your injury stance is more about avoiding pain of loss than pleasure in victory.

Of course my position increases the risk of pain. Better competition makes losing more likely. But the pleasure of the victory is sweeter.

It is simple indeed: your position is pain avoidance. A pussy fan's manifesto.

As to the rest of what you wrote: now that is some mumbo jumbo. :P

Edit:
Needed to add - of course a win is more pleasant than defeat. But that is irrelevant to my argument that the pleasure of beating better competition exceeds the pleasure of beating inferior competition. You root for injuries bc that increases the chances of victory. But that's the pussy fan manifesto: rooting for less risk to increase likelihood of victory.

I don't root for injuries. I do prefer victory to defeat. And these two positions are perfectly compatible.

So deep down I do want what you want: for the Steelers to hoist another Lombardi. But that does not affect my argument.


And here I thought it was going to be a mumbo-jumbo free few weeks with the Ivory Tower closed for Winter Break.

What the FUCK are you talking about, Lit?? Pain of loss v. pleasure of victory?? Huh??

Oh yeah....I hope Gronk & Brady both break their fuckin' legs against Buffalo on Sunday. You would seriously rather face the Patriots with Gronk & Brady rather than without?? I would punch the ticket right now for a January 21 AFCCG with neither of those fuckers in the lineup.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:13 pm 
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Don't see a rebuttal in that response, Swiss.

Pussy. Fan. Manifesto.

Pussy.

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Orangesteel wrote:
We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:03 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
Don't see a rebuttal in that response, Swiss.

Pussy. Fan. Manifesto.

Pussy.


Hard to rebut the gobbledygook you manufacture, Professor.

I think you're due for a nice, long sabbatical. You tenured? Able to do that?

I think Sunday's game may have brought on a psychotic break, affecting academicians in a unique way....up all night reading Socrates, Plato, Voltaire, et al.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:25 am 
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Pussy Man Manifesto is a good band name

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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:05 am 
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Y-Town Steel wrote:
Pussy Man Manifesto is a good band name


No doubt you'd be a huge fan of a band with that name.

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Orangesteel wrote:
We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:13 am 
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swissvale72 wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Don't see a rebuttal in that response, Swiss.

Pussy. Fan. Manifesto.

Pussy.


Hard to rebut the gobbledygook you manufacture, Professor.

I think you're due for a nice, long sabbatical. You tenured? Able to do that?

I think Sunday's game may have brought on a psychotic break, affecting academicians in a unique way....up all night reading Socrates, Plato, Voltaire, et al.


This dumb response contains no more refutation than does the last.

You root for injuries to reduce risk of loss. Prefer it because it improves chances of success.

And you wonder why I'm calling that soft?

You must be soft and daft.

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Orangesteel wrote:
We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:33 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
swissvale72 wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Don't see a rebuttal in that response, Swiss.

Pussy. Fan. Manifesto.

Pussy.


Hard to rebut the gobbledygook you manufacture, Professor.

I think you're due for a nice, long sabbatical. You tenured? Able to do that?

I think Sunday's game may have brought on a psychotic break, affecting academicians in a unique way....up all night reading Socrates, Plato, Voltaire, et al.


This dumb response contains no more refutation than does the last.

You root for injuries to reduce risk of loss. Prefer it because it improves chances of success.

And you wonder why I'm calling that soft?

You must be soft and daft.


Here's the refutation, Professor.

I want my team to win. That injuries to one's opponent, increases those chances, that's what I'm rooting for. My team certainly had injuries to overcome going into Sunday's game, then incurred more during the game. It's part of the game.

Your pontificating around positives of this, negatives of this, pleasure quotients, etc. is all bullshit, mumbo-jumbo, nonsensical.

Back to the beginning....my sense is that I'm simply more honest than you about it. You wouldn't object to Brady, Gronk, et al going down either. You would take...pleasure ...in it, though telling yourself you shouldn't feel that way.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:47 pm 
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swissvale72 wrote:
Here's the refutation, Professor.

I want my team to win. That injuries to one's opponent, increases those chances, that's what I'm rooting for. My team certainly had injuries to overcome going into Sunday's game, then incurred more during the game. It's part of the game.

Your pontificating around positives of this, negatives of this, pleasure quotients, etc. is all bullshit, mumbo-jumbo, nonsensical.

Back to the beginning....my sense is that I'm simply more honest than you about it. You wouldn't object to Brady, Gronk, et al going down either. You would take...pleasure ...in it, though telling yourself you shouldn't feel that way.


That's not a refutation of my position about what your rooting for injuries amounts to.
That's an explanation of your motivation for your position.
Never said I would not take pleasure in it, so that is irrelevant.
Nor is it hypocritical because my position is that I do not *root* for injuries, not that I do not feel this or that pleasure. You do root for injuries. And it is a pussy manifesto (more on this below).
That injuries happen is irrelevant. Your manifesto is not that injuries happen, but that one should root for them as SBI. My response has been that this is not necessarily Steelers Fans Best Interest.
You say it's all subjective.
I say, arguments can be better or worse and you have yet to refute anything I have proposed (calling something mumbo-jumbo is not a refutation).
I am being honest.

Let's review the arguments (an argument is a series of propositions of which one is a conclusion and the others are premises that secure the conclusion). All of the arguments assume we both want the team to win, so stop bringing up the most obvious shit in the world, Swiss, as if you're making any kind of point.

Argument 1 (Quality of wins)

P1: Wins against better quality opponents are objectively better wins.
P2: The better the opposing players (and coaches), the better quality of the opponent.
P3: Therefore, wins against better opposing players (and coaches) are better wins.
Conclusion: Rooting for injuries is rooting for wins of inferior quality.

(Not subjective at all: wins against better players are wins of higher quality: can't wait to see you argue otherwise. I expect you merely to reply that you do not care about quality. Point is, your injury manifesto roots for wins of lower quality. Your not caring is not a refutation.)

Argument 2 (Quality of pleasure)

P1: It is a more and better pleasure to accomplish something difficult than something easy. (P1 is the controversial premise).
P2: Beating a team of higher quality players is more difficult than beating a team of lower quality players.
P3: Therefore, the pleasure of the Steelers beating a team of higher quality players is of higher quality than the pleasure that comes from the Steelers beating a team with lower quality players.
Conclusion: Rooting for injuries is rooting for pleasure of lower quality.

(Regarding P1: I maintain that what is more difficult to accomplish is a pleasure of higher quality. Aiming for pleasures that involve more difficulty and are harder to obtain [e.g., Steelers beating Pats when Pats are at full strength] carry the risk of greater disappointment. So observe that my position of not rooting for injuries because I desire higher quality pleasure and higher quality wins also runs the risk of enduring greater disappointment for the fan. More on this below in argument 3.)

Argument 3 (As a fan, with respect to rooting for injuries, you're a pussy.)

P1: You root for injuries because it decreases risk.
P2: Pussies are risk averse. The pussy seeks to avoid risk as much as possible to guarantee success.
P3: Therefore, you advocate the easiest path to victory as opposed to the highest quality path.
Conclusion: your injury position is a pussy manifesto. You want the competition as weak as possible to ensure success as much as possible.

(You will say you are a prudent fan, not a pussy fan. But of course cowards think the courageous are rash and imprudent. Not calling you a coward. It's an analogy. My honest position is that I do not root for injuries because I favor higher quality of wins and higher quality pleasure. Also, I embrace the increased risk of losing [because I am not a pussy fan, but you will claim I am a stupid fan thus], and therefore enduring pain from the Steelers losing, by wishing for the Steelers to play teams at their best.)

Now, shall you pronounce mumbo-jumbo or actually engage and assess the premises? I ask you, for the moment, to set aside the IP address from whom the arguments issue and instead to concentrate your acumen on the actual content. Indeed, point out why the conclusions are not true given the premises provided.

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Orangesteel wrote:
We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:06 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Y-Town Steel wrote:
Pussy Man Manifesto is a good band name


No doubt you'd be a huge fan of a band with that name.

Thanks! Err... Fuck You! I'm actually not sure how to take that.

Regardless, I'd be intrigued by a band with that name.

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Get well soon, Matt Murray


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:20 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
swissvale72 wrote:
Here's the refutation, Professor.

I want my team to win. That injuries to one's opponent, increases those chances, that's what I'm rooting for. My team certainly had injuries to overcome going into Sunday's game, then incurred more during the game. It's part of the game.

Your pontificating around positives of this, negatives of this, pleasure quotients, etc. is all bullshit, mumbo-jumbo, nonsensical.

Back to the beginning....my sense is that I'm simply more honest than you about it. You wouldn't object to Brady, Gronk, et al going down either. You would take...pleasure ...in it, though telling yourself you shouldn't feel that way.


That's not a refutation of my position about what your rooting for injuries amounts to.
That's an explanation of your motivation for your position.
Never said I would not take pleasure in it, so that is irrelevant.
Nor is it hypocritical because my position is that I do not *root* for injuries, not that I do not feel this or that pleasure. You do root for injuries. And it is a pussy manifesto (more on this below).
That injuries happen is irrelevant. Your manifesto is not that injuries happen, but that one should root for them as SBI. My response has been that this is not necessarily Steelers Fans Best Interest.
You say it's all subjective.
I say, arguments can be better or worse and you have yet to refute anything I have proposed (calling something mumbo-jumbo is not a refutation).
I am being honest.

Let's review the arguments (an argument is a series of propositions of which one is a conclusion and the others are premises that secure the conclusion). All of the arguments assume we both want the team to win, so stop bringing up the most obvious shit in the world, Swiss, as if you're making any kind of point.

Argument 1 (Quality of wins)

P1: Wins against better quality opponents are objectively better wins.
P2: The better the opposing players (and coaches), the better quality of the opponent.
P3: Therefore, wins against better opposing players (and coaches) are better wins.
Conclusion: Rooting for injuries is rooting for wins of inferior quality.

(Not subjective at all: wins against better players are wins of higher quality: can't wait to see you argue otherwise. I expect you merely to reply that you do not care about quality. Point is, your injury manifesto roots for wins of lower quality. Your not caring is not a refutation.)

Argument 2 (Quality of pleasure)

P1: It is a more and better pleasure to accomplish something difficult than something easy. (P1 is the controversial premise).
P2: Beating a team of higher quality players is more difficult than beating a team of lower quality players.
P3: Therefore, the pleasure of the Steelers beating a team of higher quality players is of higher quality than the pleasure that comes from the Steelers beating a team with lower quality players.
Conclusion: Rooting for injuries is rooting for pleasure of lower quality.

(Regarding P1: I maintain that what is more difficult to accomplish is a pleasure of higher quality. Aiming for pleasures that involve more difficulty and are harder to obtain [e.g., Steelers beating Pats when Pats are at full strength] carry the risk of greater disappointment. So observe that my position of not rooting for injuries because I desire higher quality pleasure and higher quality wins also runs the risk of enduring greater disappointment for the fan. More on this below in argument 3.)

Argument 3 (As a fan, with respect to rooting for injuries, you're a pussy.)

P1: You root for injuries because it decreases risk.
P2: Pussies are risk averse. The pussy seeks to avoid risk as much as possible to guarantee success.
P3: Therefore, you advocate the easiest path to victory as opposed to the highest quality path.
Conclusion: your injury position is a pussy manifesto. You want the competition as weak as possible to ensure success as much as possible.

(You will say you are a prudent fan, not a pussy fan. But of course cowards think the courageous are rash and imprudent. Not calling you a coward. It's an analogy. My honest position is that I do not root for injuries because I favor higher quality of wins and higher quality pleasure. Also, I embrace the increased risk of losing [because I am not a pussy fan, but you will claim I am a stupid fan thus], and therefore enduring pain from the Steelers losing, by wishing for the Steelers to play teams at their best.)

Now, shall you pronounce mumbo-jumbo or actually engage and assess the premises? I ask you, for the moment, to set aside the IP address from whom the arguments issue and instead to concentrate your acumen on the actual content. Indeed, point out why the conclusions are not true given the premises provided.


Hey!! I've figured it out!! I suggested that Still Lit, the Professor, the Purveyor of Mumbo-Jumbo, should use his tenure, if he has any, go on a much-needed sabbatical....leave the hallowed halls of a academica, leave the rigors of the classroom where he's undoubtedly challenged intellectually by his fine students.

Guess what!! Lit is ON the Sabbatical. He's high on a mountaintop in Kathmandu, putting together his latest published work, Enabling an Academic Geek to Intelligently Debate with Internet Yinzers.

It's kind of funny to see the professor calling out people for being pussies. Hey Lit....re: this pleasure quotient that you've been expounding. Do you really believe that there's even one Patriots fan who found Sunday's win less pleasurable because Joe Haden and Ryan Shazier weren't in the lineup, and AB went out early 2Q. Do you think even one New England douchebag is saying, "Goddammit, I would have enjoyed this game so much more if Antonio Brown didn't tear his calf....wish I had gone to the Henry Wadsworth Longfellow reading in the Back Bay instead."

Lit....seriously, you're revealing yourself as more, and more, and more full of shit. Maybe you should travel to Montana, take some lessons from Hesske on how to be a college instructor while not compromising yourself as a Steeler fan. He could teach you a thing or two....starting with basic fuckin' logic.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:00 pm 
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Diidn't see a refutation in that response, Swiss.

Nor even an argument.

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We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:17 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Diidn't see a refutation in that response, Swiss.

Nor even an argument.


Here's the argument.

No one's buying your bullshit about quality wins, pleasure of wins, etc. Only people buying it would be your fellow pointy-headed academicians...who debate regularly on topics like relative happiness, opine about sadness, wax and wane oh so eloquently about the purpose of life.

Rooting for a win is rooting for a win...football, on some level, is a battle of attrition. If the other teams best players can be rendered non-factors via broken bones, torn ligaments, etc., and that helps my team win, I'm all for it.

This is freakin' priceless though...the Aristotle wannabe calling me a pussy. Hahahahahahah!!!


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