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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:24 pm 
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I'm not concerned about the quality of the win. That's my dispute.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:26 pm 
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swissvale72 wrote:
I'm not concerned about the quality of the win. That's my dispute.


That's not a rebuttal: it's a preference.

I'll say it again: your SBI seeks a lower pleasure for the fan.

Show me why I'm wrong.

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We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:29 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
swissvale72 wrote:
I'm not concerned about the quality of the win. That's my dispute.


That's not a rebuttal: it's a preference.

I'll say it again: your SBI seeks a lower pleasure for the fan.

Show me why I'm wrong.


Show me where you're right.

You're suggesting that you will enjoy a Steelers win against the Patriots MORE if Gronk plays than I will if he doesn't. Good luck proving that!!

Also....I'll buy that YOU would enjoy a win if Gronk is in more than YOU would enjoy the win if he is not. ME? I'll enjoy either scenario equally.

Gets back to my saying it depends upon the respective fan.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:03 pm 
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I actually gave TWO arguments.

One based in pleasure, one based on quality of win. So I did show you. Explain why I'm wrong, Swiss.

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Orangesteel wrote:
We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:22 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
I actually gave TWO arguments.

One based in pleasure, one based on quality of win. So I did show you. Explain why I'm wrong, Swiss.


YOU need to explain why you're right, Lit. Any good philosopher knows that.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:02 am 
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swissvale72 wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
I actually gave TWO arguments.

One based in pleasure, one based on quality of win. So I did show you. Explain why I'm wrong, Swiss.


YOU need to explain why you're right, Lit. Any good philosopher knows that.


Quote:
An argument for consideration that (tries to) avoids appealing to subjectivity.

The win is of objectively higher quality if the competition is objectively better.

Hence, beating teams playing at full strength are more quality wins.

Perhaps you only care about quantity of wins rather than quality.

But I would argue in terms of pleasure as well. The higher the quality, the higher the pleasure in the win.

There is a reason why beating the Pats would feel better than beating the Browns.

So in terms of quality and pleasure, your version of SBI possibly seeks the lesser good except in terms of quantity.


Ask whatever you wish. I have given you an argument already.

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Orangesteel wrote:
We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:30 pm 
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swissvale72 wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
swissvale72 wrote:
I'm not concerned about the quality of the win. That's my dispute.


That's not a rebuttal: it's a preference.

I'll say it again: your SBI seeks a lower pleasure for the fan.

Show me why I'm wrong.


Show me where you're right.

You're suggesting that you will enjoy a Steelers win against the Patriots MORE if Gronk plays than I will if he doesn't. Good luck proving that!!

Also....I'll buy that YOU would enjoy a win if Gronk is in more than YOU would enjoy the win if he is not. ME? I'll enjoy either scenario equally.

Gets back to my saying it depends upon the respective fan.


I enjoyed the Steelers’ win in 2011 over the Pats far more than the win over the Pats in 2008, even though the win in 2008 was a romp and the win in 2011 was only by 7 points.

Because in 2011, they had the personnel and the smarts to match up against the Pats’ full arsenal, on both sides of the ball.

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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:19 am 
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Jeemie wrote:
I enjoyed the Steelers’ win in 2011 over the Pats far more than the win over the Pats in 2008, even though the win in 2008 was a romp and the win in 2011 was only by 7 points.

Because in 2011, they had the personnel and the smarts to match up against the Pats’ full arsenal, on both sides of the ball.


Of course you did. Because it is obvious that wins against better talent are higher quality wins. So, naturally, you got more pleasure out of that win.

Which is why the injury position adopted by Swiss strikes me as deficient with regard to quality and pleasure. It's seems just about quantity of wins.

Now Swiss wants to argue that it is all about fan perspective. But at least in terms of the quality of the win, I think that it is objectively and not subjectively false.

Swiss mentioned "more fulfilling." Meh. Talking about quality of the win. But I do think my point about the correlation of pleasure to quality is valid.

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Orangesteel wrote:
We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:26 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
I enjoyed the Steelers’ win in 2011 over the Pats far more than the win over the Pats in 2008, even though the win in 2008 was a romp and the win in 2011 was only by 7 points.

Because in 2011, they had the personnel and the smarts to match up against the Pats’ full arsenal, on both sides of the ball.


Of course you did. Because it is obvious that wins against better talent are higher quality wins. So, naturally, you got more pleasure out of that win.

Which is why the injury position adopted by Swiss strikes me as deficient with regard to quality and pleasure. It's seems just about quantity of wins.

Now Swiss wants to argue that it is all about fan perspective. But at least in terms of the quality of the win, I think that it is objectively and not subjectively false.

Swiss mentioned "more fulfilling." Meh. Talking about quality of the win. But I do think my point about the correlation of pleasure to quality is valid.



My Take.. I don't give a fuck who plays what games.. as long as we hoist number 7 I gives a rats ass..


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:04 pm 
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Tundralag wrote:
My Take.. I don't give a fuck who plays what games.. as long as we hoist number 7 I gives a rats ass..


I think this is Swiss' positions as well. It does not, however, at all address whether my statements about quality and the relation of pleasure to quality are true or plausible.

Not caring does not affect quality of opponent and the necessarily related quality of the win.

Nor does not caring speak to or against the amount of pleasure produced relative to the quality of a win.

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Orangesteel wrote:
We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:09 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Tundralag wrote:
My Take.. I don't give a fuck who plays what games.. as long as we hoist number 7 I gives a rats ass..


I think this is Swiss' positions as well. It does not, however, at all address whether my statements about quality and the relation of pleasure to quality are true or plausible.

Not caring does not affect quality of opponent and the necessarily related quality of the win.

Nor does not caring speak to or against the amount of pleasure produced relative to the quality of a win.



I think you are correct.. For sure I feel better and more proud to be a Steeler fan when we whip the snot out of a team we are suppose to lose or we are the underdog...
and the same goes for being pissed off for a week when we lose to some scrub team we should pound


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:29 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Tundralag wrote:
My Take.. I don't give a fuck who plays what games.. as long as we hoist number 7 I gives a rats ass..


I think this is Swiss' positions as well. It does not, however, at all address whether my statements about quality and the relation of pleasure to quality are true or plausible.

Not caring does not affect quality of opponent and the necessarily related quality of the win.

Nor does not caring speak to or against the amount of pleasure produced relative to the quality of a win.


I haven’t read through the all comments, but I don’t think anyone, even Swiss, would disagree that a Steelers win vs the Pats this year would be 100% more satisfying than a win vs the Browns, this year. To say otherwise would be disingenuous.

Now, that same logic naturally applies to a win vs a full strength Pats squad vs a < 100% squad, which is to Lit’s point.

Yet, I get it if someone doesn’t really care how the Steelers arrive at #7.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:06 pm 
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randomsteelerfan wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Tundralag wrote:
My Take.. I don't give a fuck who plays what games.. as long as we hoist number 7 I gives a rats ass..


I think this is Swiss' positions as well. It does not, however, at all address whether my statements about quality and the relation of pleasure to quality are true or plausible.

Not caring does not affect quality of opponent and the necessarily related quality of the win.

Nor does not caring speak to or against the amount of pleasure produced relative to the quality of a win.


I haven’t read through the all comments, but I don’t think anyone, even Swiss, would disagree that a Steelers win vs the Pats this year would be 100% more satisfying than a win vs the Browns, this year. To say otherwise would be disingenuous.

Now, that same logic naturally applies to a win vs a full strength Pats squad vs a < 100% squad, which is to Lit’s point.

Yet, I get it if someone doesn’t really care how the Steelers arrive at #7.


Not comparing win vs. Browns to win vs. Pats. Comparing win vs. Pats at full strenght to win vs. Pats if they have significant injuries. To me, doesn't matter how we win the same game, and if they're depleted by injury, gives us a better chance.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:30 am 
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Point is, a win against a fully loaded Pats team is a higher quality win.

You not caring whether the win is higher quality or not does not affect my argument that your SBI injury stance advocates for lower quality wins.

That's the point about beating Pats more satisfying than beating Browns.

I repeat: it not mattering to you is not relevant to the argument.

I repeat: your SBI, as you present it, seeks the good in terms quantity rather than quality.

Like you say, all about fan perspective.

Me? I get pleasure from higher quality things more than from a higher quantity of lower quality things. If I had to choose between an unlimited supply of Bud Light, which is awful, and a single bottle of the world's finest Scotch, gonna go with the Scotch.

Rooting for injuries is vulgar not because of some pretentious high minded ideas about humans, but also because it advocates for lower quality pleasures.

YOU may be no less pleased by a win against an injury-filled Pats team. You might be the sort that would choose unlimited Bud Light, too. :D

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We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:54 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
Point is, a win against a fully loaded Pats team is a higher quality win.

You not caring whether the win is higher quality or not does not affect my argument that your SBI injury stance advocates for lower quality wins.

That's the point about beating Pats more satisfying than beating Browns.

I repeat: it not mattering to you is not relevant to the argument.

I repeat: your SBI, as you present it, seeks the good in terms quantity rather than quality.

Like you say, all about fan perspective.

Me? I get pleasure from higher quality things more than from a higher quantity of lower quality things. If I had to choose between an unlimited supply of Bud Light, which is awful, and a single bottle of the world's finest Scotch, gonna go with the Scotch.

Rooting for injuries is vulgar not because of some pretentious high minded ideas about humans, but also because it advocates for lower quality pleasures.

YOU may be no less pleased by a win against an injury-filled Pats team. You might be the sort that would choose unlimited Bud Light, too. :D


You should really take a break from the mumbo-jumbo on weekends, Professor...save it for your students.

For the record, you won't find me touching Bud Light. And I know it has much to do with advertising, but I always find it striking when winning championship locker rooms are filled with shitty Bud Light rather than a decent beer.

It's like this. If you're crawling through the fuckin' desert, parched beyond belief, needing liquid in the worse way, little strength left in your body....and a savior appears. He offers you a Bud Light right now....or if you do three backflips, stand on your head, run three miles, you can have the finest scotch, what do you do? That's us in the playoffs versus the New England Patriots. I'll take the win, regardless of circumstance. We're so fuckin' starved for this that however it happens will be of sufficiently high quality.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:07 pm 
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Of course one takes the win. That response shows you do not understand the argument.

This is about your rooting for injuries stance.

It's only mumbo jumbo if you can't understand the argument. Why are you having such trouble with it?

http://www.historyofethics.org/122007/1 ... oher.shtml

Pretty sure I take the Bud Light because it has more water in it and I do not want to die. And life is more pleasant than being dead. What a dumb fucking repsonse.

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Orangesteel wrote:
We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:13 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Of course one takes the win. That response shows you do not understand the argument.

This is about your rooting for injuries stance.

It's only mumbo jumbo if you can't understand the argument. Why are you having such trouble with it?

http://www.historyofethics.org/122007/1 ... oher.shtml

Pretty sure I take the Bud Light because it has more water in it and I do not want to die. And life is more pleasant than being dead. What a dumb fucking repsonse.


And a win is more pleasant than a loss. I understand the argument perfectly.

It's this simple, Professor.

Steelers beat the Patriots in the playoffs, and I'll be over the fuckin' moon. If the Patriots have Brady, don't have Brady, have Gronk, don't have Gronk....won't matter. I won't enjoy the win at a higher level if their lineup is intact. The game starts and Brady goes down with an injury, I'll have the same response as when Carson Palmer went down in the '05 Wild Card game....pure joy....only escalated a few notches.

And inside, you'll be happy about it, too.....but wrestling with your own morality, imposing some type of bizarre penance on yourself, writing a self-loathing treatise about it, due to being pleased that it happened, even though you weren't "rooting" for it.....as though that somehow makes your position morally superior to mine. Bullshit!! Mine's just more honest.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:44 pm 
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The irony. If you were honest you'd admit your injury stance is more about avoiding pain of loss than pleasure in victory.

Of course my position increases the risk of pain. Better competition makes losing more likely. But the pleasure of the victory is sweeter.

It is simple indeed: your position is pain avoidance. A pussy fan's manifesto.

As to the rest of what you wrote: now that is some mumbo jumbo. :P

Edit:
Needed to add - of course a win is more pleasant than defeat. But that is irrelevant to my argument that the pleasure of beating better competition exceeds the pleasure of beating inferior competition. You root for injuries bc that increases the chances of victory. But that's the pussy fan manifesto: rooting for less risk to increase likelihood of victory.

I don't root for injuries. I do prefer victory to defeat. And these two positions are perfectly compatible.

So deep down I do want what you want: for the Steelers to hoist another Lombardi. But that does not affect my argument.

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We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:09 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
The irony. If you were honest you'd admit your injury stance is more about avoiding pain of loss than pleasure in victory.

Of course my position increases the risk of pain. Better competition makes losing more likely. But the pleasure of the victory is sweeter.

It is simple indeed: your position is pain avoidance. A pussy fan's manifesto.

As to the rest of what you wrote: now that is some mumbo jumbo. :P

Edit:
Needed to add - of course a win is more pleasant than defeat. But that is irrelevant to my argument that the pleasure of beating better competition exceeds the pleasure of beating inferior competition. You root for injuries bc that increases the chances of victory. But that's the pussy fan manifesto: rooting for less risk to increase likelihood of victory.

I don't root for injuries. I do prefer victory to defeat. And these two positions are perfectly compatible.

So deep down I do want what you want: for the Steelers to hoist another Lombardi. But that does not affect my argument.


And here I thought it was going to be a mumbo-jumbo free few weeks with the Ivory Tower closed for Winter Break.

What the FUCK are you talking about, Lit?? Pain of loss v. pleasure of victory?? Huh??

Oh yeah....I hope Gronk & Brady both break their fuckin' legs against Buffalo on Sunday. You would seriously rather face the Patriots with Gronk & Brady rather than without?? I would punch the ticket right now for a January 21 AFCCG with neither of those fuckers in the lineup.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:13 pm 
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Don't see a rebuttal in that response, Swiss.

Pussy. Fan. Manifesto.

Pussy.

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Orangesteel wrote:
We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:03 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
Don't see a rebuttal in that response, Swiss.

Pussy. Fan. Manifesto.

Pussy.


Hard to rebut the gobbledygook you manufacture, Professor.

I think you're due for a nice, long sabbatical. You tenured? Able to do that?

I think Sunday's game may have brought on a psychotic break, affecting academicians in a unique way....up all night reading Socrates, Plato, Voltaire, et al.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:25 am 
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Pussy Man Manifesto is a good band name

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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:05 am 
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Y-Town Steel wrote:
Pussy Man Manifesto is a good band name


No doubt you'd be a huge fan of a band with that name.

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Orangesteel wrote:
We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:13 am 
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swissvale72 wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Don't see a rebuttal in that response, Swiss.

Pussy. Fan. Manifesto.

Pussy.


Hard to rebut the gobbledygook you manufacture, Professor.

I think you're due for a nice, long sabbatical. You tenured? Able to do that?

I think Sunday's game may have brought on a psychotic break, affecting academicians in a unique way....up all night reading Socrates, Plato, Voltaire, et al.


This dumb response contains no more refutation than does the last.

You root for injuries to reduce risk of loss. Prefer it because it improves chances of success.

And you wonder why I'm calling that soft?

You must be soft and daft.

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Orangesteel wrote:
We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


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 Post subject: Re: Round the League (only stuff we give a shit about)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:33 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
swissvale72 wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Don't see a rebuttal in that response, Swiss.

Pussy. Fan. Manifesto.

Pussy.


Hard to rebut the gobbledygook you manufacture, Professor.

I think you're due for a nice, long sabbatical. You tenured? Able to do that?

I think Sunday's game may have brought on a psychotic break, affecting academicians in a unique way....up all night reading Socrates, Plato, Voltaire, et al.


This dumb response contains no more refutation than does the last.

You root for injuries to reduce risk of loss. Prefer it because it improves chances of success.

And you wonder why I'm calling that soft?

You must be soft and daft.


Here's the refutation, Professor.

I want my team to win. That injuries to one's opponent, increases those chances, that's what I'm rooting for. My team certainly had injuries to overcome going into Sunday's game, then incurred more during the game. It's part of the game.

Your pontificating around positives of this, negatives of this, pleasure quotients, etc. is all bullshit, mumbo-jumbo, nonsensical.

Back to the beginning....my sense is that I'm simply more honest than you about it. You wouldn't object to Brady, Gronk, et al going down either. You would take...pleasure ...in it, though telling yourself you shouldn't feel that way.


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