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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:40 pm 
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You must be 21 years of age to legally consume alcohol here in the Untied States. However, some of our politicians decide that it is discriminatory to check a persons ID prior to serving or selling them alcohol. That checking ID disproportionately excludes minorities from consuming alcohol based on the notion that some minorities are not able to acquire identification. Laws are then put in place to prevent anyone from checking your ID prior to serving or selling. In addition, governmental oversight will switch from enforcing ID checks to ensuring there is no ID check. Records will not be kept and people will be told that even though it is still illegal to consume alcohol under age, there will be no enforcement at bars, restaurants, or liquor stores. You are now all on the honor system.

Some don't agree with this. They argue that we will end up selling to or serving minors and are concerned about what that ultimately means to society if a person of any age can go buy a beer. The proponents however feel that it's far worse if even just one person isn't able to buy a beer because they are not able to obtain identification. They feel it is better to have minors drinking illegally than to have a small handful of people refused service because they can't (or won't) complete the simple task of obtaining proper identification.

After a few years of this there is growing evidence that minors are in fact purchasing alcohol. The proponents respond by saying there is zero evidence of this. Prove it's happening they say. The burden is on you to prove it. Our "studies" even show no minors are drinking illegally. They are respecting that "honor system" and not stepping into bars or liquor stores. The statistics say so.

The opponents say a study isn't a statistic. We've already been told there is no record being kept. We've already been told there is no enforcement. If they aren't keeping track how can you possibly know if the person sitting at the bar is really 21 or still just 20? It then becomes impossible to prove OR disprove.

We all know in this scenario minors would be drinking. We'd all agree in 100% certainty. A simple common sense unbiased look at the situation leads a rational person to conclude that if a law is not going to be enforced, people will feel very free to break that law. Especially to do something a great number of people would want to do. In some cases desperately.

Yet with politics we will vehemently disagree. Prove it we say. On both sides. We all do it. Guilty myself of it at times.

This particular topic however really isn't even worthy of debate as it can't even pass the most basic of smell test. The argument for not having voter ID is as flimsy as wet single ply TP. Oh the horror they cry if but a single person is denied their right to vote because of an ID. Never mind you need ID to function in our society. Even the poorest of poor will need an ID. And we have programs that see to it they get one. Some of those programs however (DMV) dont even check citizenship. No need they say, we have the honor system.

The opponents reason for wanting ID checks is solid as oak. The right to vote is a sacred right granted to CITIZENS of this country. Voting is powerful and ALL citizens should exercise their right to vote. But we must guard this process as it is sacred. Far too sacred to allow even but one non-citizen to cast even one vote. Not a single one. Because that illegal vote cancels out the vote of a person that had a legal right to do so under our constitution. If we give that away, we give away our sovereignty and ultimately will give away our country.

Poltargyst, you said yourself that "it's a simple fact that the more people that vote in an election the greater the chance a democrat wins that election". You can say that on one hand yet on the other deny or simply refuse to acknowledge one of the very means they are using to increase their number of voters? Very inconsistent.

Would you defend that minors weren't drinking if we did away with ID checks? It would be funny if you tried.

And yet you believe someone who's continued presence in this country along with the continuation of benefits they are receiving isn't going to try to vote when those very critical things are potentially jeopardized? Really?

Someone already breaking the law is going to not break it again even when it's in their crucial interest to do so why exactly? Oh I forgot, the honor system.

You are being intellectually dishonest if you believe that which is why I brought up your integrity.

Feel free to post more studies that tell you even though it's Saturday night, those high school kids are going to stick to Coke & Pepsi because it's illegal for them to buy booze. Nevermind the fact they are fully aware not a single liquor store in the state will ask them for ID.

I've said it before but this time I do mean it. I won't respond again to this topic. So flame away. Post more studies about how people already breaking the law by being here illegally are not going to break it again to stay. That good ole honor system. Gotta love it.


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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:56 pm 
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955876 wrote:
I don't need to read an article to know illegals are voting in our elections.

Those who fight voter ID can also get articles published disputing it.

Propaganda has been around a long time.

You dispute some written word but trust other written word hook line and sinker.

About the integrity thing. At the least admit that illegals have voted in our elections. To say they have not would simply be dishonest or complete niativity.

We can agree to disagree about the number and then leave it at that.


Oh, no, you don't get to dismiss the article I linked to. That was written by one who does the research and whose data was used in the Electorial Studies paper. This is not some hack, this is an expert witness. This is a guy who does the research, and he is telling you that the Electorial Studies paper is crap. You don't get to just blow off his opinion. But he's not alone...

http://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/a ... ingly-rare

Quote:
•Rutgers University political scientist Lorraine C. Minnite has studied voter fraud allegations for more than a decade. She has concluded that voter fraud, including noncitizen voting, is “extremely rare.” In one analysis of the first three years of a Justice Department initiative to uncover voter fraud ending in 2005, she found that there were only 14 convictions of noncitizens for voting.


You got me. In 2005 there were 14 convictions of noncitizen voter fraud. :o I am now forced to admit that noncitizens have voted...in numbers way too small to make a difference to anyone.

I'm not going to keep quoting from this source, but there's case after case showing at most small numbers of noncitizen voters like that.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:08 pm 
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955876 wrote:
You must be 21 years of age to legally consume alcohol here in the Untied States. However, some of our politicians decide that it is discriminatory to check a persons ID prior to serving or selling them alcohol. That checking ID disproportionately excludes minorities from consuming alcohol based on the notion that some minorities are not able to acquire identification. Laws are then put in place to prevent anyone from checking your ID prior to serving or selling. In addition, governmental oversight will switch from enforcing ID checks to ensuring there is no ID check. Records will not be kept and people will be told that even though it is still illegal to consume alcohol under age, there will be no enforcement at bars, restaurants, or liquor stores. You are now all on the honor system.

Some don't agree with this. They argue that we will end up selling to or serving minors and are concerned about what that ultimately means to society if a person of any age can go buy a beer. The proponents however feel that it's far worse if even just one person isn't able to buy a beer because they are not able to obtain identification. They feel it is better to have minors drinking illegally than to have a small handful of people refused service because they can't (or won't) complete the simple task of obtaining proper identification.

After a few years of this there is growing evidence that minors are in fact purchasing alcohol. The proponents respond by saying there is zero evidence of this. Prove it's happening they say. The burden is on you to prove it. Our "studies" even show no minors are drinking illegally. They are respecting that "honor system" and not stepping into bars or liquor stores. The statistics say so.

The opponents say a study isn't a statistic. We've already been told there is no record being kept. We've already been told there is no enforcement. If they aren't keeping track how can you possibly know if the person sitting at the bar is really 21 or still just 20? It then becomes impossible to prove OR disprove.

We all know in this scenario minors would be drinking. We'd all agree in 100% certainty. A simple common sense unbiased look at the situation leads a rational person to conclude that if a law is not going to be enforced, people will feel very free to break that law. Especially to do something a great number of people would want to do. In some cases desperately.

Yet with politics we will vehemently disagree. Prove it we say. On both sides. We all do it. Guilty myself of it at times.

This particular topic however really isn't even worthy of debate as it can't even pass the most basic of smell test. The argument for not having voter ID is as flimsy as wet single ply TP. Oh the horror they cry if but a single person is denied their right to vote because of an ID. Never mind you need ID to function in our society. Even the poorest of poor will need an ID. And we have programs that see to it they get one. Some of those programs however (DMV) dont even check citizenship. No need they say, we have the honor system.

The opponents reason for wanting ID checks is solid as oak. The right to vote is a sacred right granted to CITIZENS of this country. Voting is powerful and ALL citizens should exercise their right to vote. But we must guard this process as it is sacred. Far too sacred to allow even but one non-citizen to cast even one vote. Not a single one. Because that illegal vote cancels out the vote of a person that had a legal right to do so under our constitution. If we give that away, we give away our sovereignty and ultimately will give away our country.

Poltargyst, you said yourself that "it's a simple fact that the more people that vote in an election the greater the chance a democrat wins that election". You can say that on one hand yet on the other deny or simply refuse to acknowledge one of the very means they are using to increase their number of voters? Very inconsistent.

Would you defend that minors weren't drinking if we did away with ID checks? It would be funny if you tried.

And yet you believe someone who's continued presence in this country along with the continuation of benefits they are receiving isn't going to try to vote when those very critical things are potentially jeopardized? Really?

Someone already breaking the law is going to not break it again even when it's in their crucial interest to do so why exactly? Oh I forgot, the honor system.

You are being intellectually dishonest if you believe that which is why I brought up your integrity.

Feel free to post more studies that tell you even though it's Saturday night, those high school kids are going to stick to Coke & Pepsi because it's illegal for them to buy booze. Nevermind the fact they are fully aware not a single liquor store in the state will ask them for ID.

I've said it before but this time I do mean it. I won't respond again to this topic. So flame away. Post more studies about how people already breaking the law by being here illegally are not going to break it again to stay. That good ole honor system. Gotta love it.

If I were to ask for proof that minors buying and drinking alcohol had ever happened I could get it. Why? Because minors have been arrested for drinking alcohol! People get caught! But I am being asked to believe that MILLIONS of noncitizen voters vote in every election, and they are so sneaky about it we can only catch a few at a time?

It's not the honor system. This stuff gets investigated. See my previous link. This gets investigated. Sometimes someone actually gets convicted. But it ain't happening by the millions.

This business of democrats winning when people vote. You act like that's proof of something nefarious. It isn't. Republicans turn out for every election. Democrats often need to get turned out. All that's saying is that when Dems get the turnout, they win. Says nothing whatsoever about Dems getting illegals to vote.

I'm not necessarily opposed to requiring a voter ID, except that in the back of myu mind I'm remembering some talk show or other talking about how even that might be a hardship for some. Can you promise me no American citizens will be denied getting to vote because we've implemented a photo ID requirement?

And as I've said, Republicans want us to think voter fraud is a major problem so that they can justify implementing voter suppression tecniques which result in American citizens being unable to cast legal votes so that they can win elections.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:56 pm 
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Still Lit,

The spending per student is so high in NY state because most of it goes to teachers and administrators. I know it isn't that way in the whole country, but it is here. I'm not saying teachers can't make a difference, but at the end of the day, the best teachers in the world aren't going to help some of these areas.

Let's take a look at Hempstead again. 26k spent per student...mostly going to teachers and administrators. Here are the average salaries for that failing district:

Kindergarten Teacher $94,730
Elementary School Teacher $96,860
Middle School Teacher $97,920
High School Teacher $96,250

It's a joke. The teachers are paid amazingly well and the district has been on NY state's failing list for years. It sucks. Is it the teacher's fault? No. But, tossing that extra cash in the teachers pockets is literally doing them no good.


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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:05 pm 
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What a second. I'm supposed to believe that 22 million non-citizens in this country all follow the honor system? Cmon who are we trying to fool here. These elections are razor tight in some cases....especially the electoral college. And, we are to believe there are only 14 people out there voting as non-citizens?

There are very powerful interests out there attacking any sort of study on election integrity. Trump's commission has been trying to get voter info from all the states to further study the issue. Seems harmless right? I mean if there is nothing to hide, why not cooperate? Trump will just look like a fool in the end, right?

Instead, we have States doing everything they can to block information. We have former Obama administration alumni suing the election integrity commission under the little known Paperwork Reduction Act to try to tie them up in court for years. I wonder why?

It doesn't take much to connect the dots here.


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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:24 pm 
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franco32 wrote:
Still Lit,

The spending per student is so high in NY state because most of it goes to teachers and administrators. I know it isn't that way in the whole country, but it is here. I'm not saying teachers can't make a difference, but at the end of the day, the best teachers in the world aren't going to help some of these areas.

Let's take a look at Hempstead again. 26k spent per student...mostly going to teachers and administrators. Here are the average salaries for that failing district:

Kindergarten Teacher $94,730
Elementary School Teacher $96,860
Middle School Teacher $97,920
High School Teacher $96,250

It's a joke. The teachers are paid amazingly well and the district has been on NY state's failing list for years. It sucks. Is it the teacher's fault? No. But, tossing that extra cash in the teachers pockets is literally doing them no good.


Oh I think sometimes the teachers may be failing. I teach at university for much less. If my teaching were not adequate I would never have received tenure. My argument is that many districts underpay and thus fail to attract the needed talent. Some districts do not underpay but do not have adequate teaching standards. In Baltimore public schools the pay is 55k. So your pointing to Hempstead is not an adequate argument for the general state of affairs. Are you saying that we should not raise teacher pay in Baltimore or that paying an elementary teacher 100k is dumb or both? Why do doctors get 6 figure salaries and still have patients that die? Maybe since patients still die we ought to pay doctors less? Or is it that bodies are more complicated than human souls? And how much do you get paid for what you do? Is what you do for a living more important than educating the young? What wage do you think educating our children is appropriate given the importance you attach to educating our young? Or is it that convincing others to buy goods and services is a skill that deserves more pay than educating the young?

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:41 am 
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This will offend a lot of people...there ARE actually bigger problems in this country than debating perceived vs. actual racism.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:27 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
franco32 wrote:
Still Lit,

The spending per student is so high in NY state because most of it goes to teachers and administrators. I know it isn't that way in the whole country, but it is here. I'm not saying teachers can't make a difference, but at the end of the day, the best teachers in the world aren't going to help some of these areas.

Let's take a look at Hempstead again. 26k spent per student...mostly going to teachers and administrators. Here are the average salaries for that failing district:

Kindergarten Teacher $94,730
Elementary School Teacher $96,860
Middle School Teacher $97,920
High School Teacher $96,250

It's a joke. The teachers are paid amazingly well and the district has been on NY state's failing list for years. It sucks. Is it the teacher's fault? No. But, tossing that extra cash in the teachers pockets is literally doing them no good.


Oh I think sometimes the teachers may be failing. I teach at university for much less. If my teaching were not adequate I would never have received tenure. My argument is that many districts underpay and thus fail to attract the needed talent. Some districts do not underpay but do not have adequate teaching standards. In Baltimore public schools the pay is 55k. So your pointing to Hempstead is not an adequate argument for the general state of affairs. Are you saying that we should not raise teacher pay in Baltimore or that paying an elementary teacher 100k is dumb or both? Why do doctors get 6 figure salaries and still have patients that die? Maybe since patients still die we ought to pay doctors less? Or is it that bodies are more complicated than human souls? And how much do you get paid for what you do? Is what you do for a living more important than educating the young? What wage do you think educating our children is appropriate given the importance you attach to educating our young? Or is it that convincing others to buy goods and services is a skill that deserves more pay than educating the young?


I'm saying that paying the teachers more money will not change the outcome. Long Island is littered with school districts in terrible areas that pay really well. It isn't just Hempstead. These districts are all primarily Black and Hispanic and low income and they are failing. The neighboring white districts are affluent and they all do very well. Now the school budgets between the two and the teacher pay is very similar (and in some cases the poor districts pay better). Now, of course the Blacks and Hispanics are not intellectually inferior, so it comes down to socialization, the family unit, and economics.

Pouring more money in those schools will not change the outcome. There are too many other factors at play here that will continue the spiral of failing schools. You simply can not have good schools in an environment dominated by crime, zero or one parent households, and no economic hope. I can put the best seed down with tons of sunlight and lots of water...but if it is in terrible soil...nothing will grow. Can teachers make a difference at the micro level with some students here and there? Of course. But, the overall picture will continue to be horrendous until the underlying community problems are solved.


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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:35 am 
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Kodiak wrote:
This will offend a lot of people...there ARE actually bigger problems in this country than debating perceived vs. actual racism.


No doubt, but perceived racism "sells". Media outlets know their ratings go way up if they can sell an item as "racism" and political groups know their power will grow if they can do the same. So, the issue won't go away anytime soon.

My wife who is British just can't understand it. "Why do Americans immediately cast everything as a race issue?" she says. The answer is simple. There is a lot to be gained by doing so. It's about power and humankind's thirst to accumulate it. History will always show that humans will leverage whatever they can to gain power. At this point in history, identity politics is just another way to gain power.

Only way to stop it is by voting out the politicians that continually obsess over it, use it to divide us, and try to exploit it.


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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:47 am 
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Ok, let's consider my position pretty much refuted.

Observe your comment that you cannot have good education outcomes where there is crime and no economic hope. But we know that good education is the primary correlate to economic status. So you are possibly pointing out a catch-22. Unless the education outcomes improve, there will be no economic improvement and this contributes to crime and lack of economic hope which makes improving outcomes impossible which reinforces no economic hope and crime and so on.

We are in complete agreement that family factors are are absolutely paramount.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:22 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Ok, let's consider my position pretty much refuted.

Observe your comment that you cannot have good education outcomes where there is crime and no economic hope. But we know that good education is the primary correlate to economic status. So you are possibly pointing out a catch-22. Unless the education outcomes improve, there will be no economic improvement and this contributes to crime and lack of economic hope which makes improving outcomes impossible which reinforces no economic hope and crime and so on.

We are in complete agreement that family factors are are absolutely paramount.


Lit you are being very nice and cordial, but this issue is pretty black and white. Guys like Franco (their are millions in the USA) are greedy. They want theirs and as long as they get theirs they dont give a fuck about anyone else. They know they need a certain percentage of the populace to be uneducated and only have the ability to earn the exorbitant salary of $7.75 per hr.. They need those people so they can have someone to pick up their towel at their club, cut their grass cheaply so they can go to their club, shine their $400 loafers, make them their clubhouse sandwich at the club earning $7.75 per hour so the sandwich only costs $8.00 and they keep more for themselves. They are the only ones who studied, worked hard and earned this lavish lifestyle. THEY are special.

Understanding investment in things like public education will only serve to educate their "$7.75 slave" and perhaps cause them to revolt which will drive up the cost of getting their grass cut and clubhouse sandwich are unacceptable. We must have the haves (me) and the have nots (them). So they pay inner city teachers $35,000 a year, they make their parents work for $7.75 per hour, and the vicious cycle of poverty and crime, and drug abuse propagates itself over and over and over, and Franco gets to keep his.

Living in a socialist country I see first hand every day why paying more into social programs benefits ALL of society even for greedy fucks like the Franco's of the world. We dont have any south beaches, or Palm Springs, or Rodeo drives or Mara Lago's to speak of but our society as a whole is much healthier and its because we treat ALL of the sick, we educate ALL of the people, we fix ALL of the roads, we protect ALL of the people equally etc etc etc. As a result our society is much healthier for ALL of the people. There are countless studies conducted annually on happiest countries and the USA always ranks low. Considering it is the richest country in the world should it not also be one of the happiest??. See below. Count down begins for next greedy fucker to tell us why this is not important and erroneous and that pesky things like statistics that threaten their wealth and standard of living (Global warming statistics??) are useless. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

After ranking fourth for the last two years, Norway jumped three spots and displaced three-time winner Denmark to take the title of "world's happiest country" for the first time in 2016.
Denmark dropped to second place this year, followed by Iceland, Switzerland, Finland, Netherlands, Canada, New Zealand and Australia and Sweden (which tied for ninth place), according to the latest World Happiness Report, released Monday by the Sustainable Development Solutions Network for the United Nations.
Denmark has won the title three of the four times the report has been issued, while Switzerland has won the title just once.
The United States came in 14th place, dropping one place from last yea


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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:53 pm 
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franco32 wrote:
What a second. I'm supposed to believe that 22 million non-citizens in this country all follow the honor system? Cmon who are we trying to fool here. These elections are razor tight in some cases....especially the electoral college. And, we are to believe there are only 14 people out there voting as non-citizens?

There are very powerful interests out there attacking any sort of study on election integrity. Trump's commission has been trying to get voter info from all the states to further study the issue. Seems harmless right? I mean if there is nothing to hide, why not cooperate? Trump will just look like a fool in the end, right?

Instead, we have States doing everything they can to block information. We have former Obama administration alumni suing the election integrity commission under the little known Paperwork Reduction Act to try to tie them up in court for years. I wonder why?

It doesn't take much to connect the dots here.


This...

Poltargyst, studies can be done to prove anything. And if nobody is checking ID or proving citizenship then your fancy studies are nothing but a waste if time and money. There is only one stat to measure this. Citizen vs non-citizen. ID check. If you can't prove it you can't disprove it either.

What freaking stats are they using if nobody is checking shit at the door? I don't care what their conclusions are because I don't accept their input data to be sufficient.

And if these studies are so great, why not trust them? Why strongly block any efforts to really look into this? You have these studies that say it isn't happening but in an insignificant number. Prove it then. Allow the investigation. You have your studies so what's there to worry about? Or how about just supporting ID laws. What has happened has happened. Make sure it doesn't again. But they won't even do that. And no, it is not for that one bleeding heart out there that just wants to vote so bad but just can't manage to get that elusive ID. For THAT tiny wee bitty segment of people they need to get themselves squared away before they have a say in someone else's life. Getting an ID has never been an issue in this country. That's a myth. You aren't getting on no social assistance without some form of ID. So there isn't even a segment of people. Illegals don't have ID. Oh wait, except for the ones who got them from DMV. Oh and guess what, automatically registered to vote. It happens. Especially in CA.

And they aren't catching people voting illegally because THEY ARENT LOOKING. They have said they aren't looking. People know they aren't looking. So how can you get caught? By who? Men in Black?

This is elementary stuff. I said I was done. If you want to keep debating with me come back with something of substance. Otherwise, just assume Franco's or Kodiak's response if they so choose to be what I'd likely say because they seem to have a reasonable opinion on these matters.

There be no illegals voting cuz we ain't caught nones yet. Ummm are you looking?

Lastly, I live in CA. The Hispanic community here hates Donald Trump. They loathe him. They want him dead.

But they are not going to vote right? Come on. Defies any logic.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:21 pm 
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955876 wrote:
Lastly, I live in CA. The Hispanic community here hates Donald Trump. They loathe him. They want him dead.


It ain't just the Hispanic community, I can assure you of that.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:05 am 
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I keep seeing this question of "noncitizens want benefits! They hate Trump! Why wouldn't they vote???"

Maybe because it's ILLEGAL, and they don't want to get caught? I'll double check, but I think a conviction of voter fraud can get you five years in prison, a $10,000 fine and if you're a noncitizen, deportation.

Why wouldn't they vote??? Maybe the threat of prison and deportation stops them?

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:43 am 
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Not to get in the way of a voter fraud argument...An article showing the political leanings of sports fans for major sports. The NFL is the only one that is mostly neutral.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ho ... litically/

Quote:
The showdown between President Trump and the NFL over some players’ decision to kneel during the national anthem to protest racial injustice has raised all kinds of important issues. It’s also put the most popular major sports league in the United States in a difficult position. The NFL’s fan base is much more bipartisan than those of other major sports leagues, and it risks angering one side or the other if it mishandles the situation.

Pro football is unique in that its fandom stretches across partisan lines. Using Google Trends to measure fan interest for a given media market in the United States,1 we calculated the percentage of search traffic over the previous five years for each region related to each of the major professional sports leagues (NFL, NBA, MLB and NHL), as well as college football, college basketball and NASCAR.2 We then compared it to Trump’s vote share in last year’s presidential election in each market. (You can find that data on GitHub here.)

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:47 am 
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Stinger8 wrote:

After ranking fourth for the last two years, Norway jumped three spots and displaced three-time winner Denmark to take the title of "world's happiest country" for the first time in 2016.
Denmark dropped to second place this year, followed by Iceland, Switzerland, Finland, Netherlands, Canada, New Zealand and Australia and Sweden (which tied for ninth place), according to the latest World Happiness Report, released Monday by the Sustainable Development Solutions Network for the United Nations.
Denmark has won the title three of the four times the report has been issued, while Switzerland has won the title just once.
The United States came in 14th place, dropping one place from last year


I can't believe the USA ranks THAT HIGH? Everyone is always pissed off or offended about something.


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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:16 am 
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Stinger8 wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Ok, let's consider my position pretty much refuted.

Observe your comment that you cannot have good education outcomes where there is crime and no economic hope. But we know that good education is the primary correlate to economic status. So you are possibly pointing out a catch-22. Unless the education outcomes improve, there will be no economic improvement and this contributes to crime and lack of economic hope which makes improving outcomes impossible which reinforces no economic hope and crime and so on.

We are in complete agreement that family factors are are absolutely paramount.


Lit you are being very nice and cordial, but this issue is pretty black and white. Guys like Franco (their are millions in the USA) are greedy. They want theirs and as long as they get theirs they dont give a fuck about anyone else. They know they need a certain percentage of the populace to be uneducated and only have the ability to earn the exorbitant salary of $7.75 per hr.. They need those people so they can have someone to pick up their towel at their club, cut their grass cheaply so they can go to their club, shine their $400 loafers, make them their clubhouse sandwich at the club earning $7.75 per hour so the sandwich only costs $8.00 and they keep more for themselves. They are the only ones who studied, worked hard and earned this lavish lifestyle. THEY are special.

Understanding investment in things like public education will only serve to educate their "$7.75 slave" and perhaps cause them to revolt which will drive up the cost of getting their grass cut and clubhouse sandwich are unacceptable. We must have the haves (me) and the have nots (them). So they pay inner city teachers $35,000 a year, they make their parents work for $7.75 per hour, and the vicious cycle of poverty and crime, and drug abuse propagates itself over and over and over, and Franco gets to keep his.

Living in a socialist country I see first hand every day why paying more into social programs benefits ALL of society even for greedy fucks like the Franco's of the world. We dont have any south beaches, or Palm Springs, or Rodeo drives or Mara Lago's to speak of but our society as a whole is much healthier and its because we treat ALL of the sick, we educate ALL of the people, we fix ALL of the roads, we protect ALL of the people equally etc etc etc. As a result our society is much healthier for ALL of the people. There are countless studies conducted annually on happiest countries and the USA always ranks low. Considering it is the richest country in the world should it not also be one of the happiest??. See below. Count down begins for next greedy fucker to tell us why this is not important and erroneous and that pesky things like statistics that threaten their wealth and standard of living (Global warming statistics??) are useless. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

After ranking fourth for the last two years, Norway jumped three spots and displaced three-time winner Denmark to take the title of "world's happiest country" for the first time in 2016.
Denmark dropped to second place this year, followed by Iceland, Switzerland, Finland, Netherlands, Canada, New Zealand and Australia and Sweden (which tied for ninth place), according to the latest World Happiness Report, released Monday by the Sustainable Development Solutions Network for the United Nations.
Denmark has won the title three of the four times the report has been issued, while Switzerland has won the title just once.
The United States came in 14th place, dropping one place from last yea


Norway has roughly the population of Colorado with a VERY homogenous population and a massive amount of natural resources per capita. Which I'm sure you know if you live there. Apples to Oranges would be an understatement.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:36 am 
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R S wrote:
Stinger8 wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Ok, let's consider my position pretty much refuted.

Observe your comment that you cannot have good education outcomes where there is crime and no economic hope. But we know that good education is the primary correlate to economic status. So you are possibly pointing out a catch-22. Unless the education outcomes improve, there will be no economic improvement and this contributes to crime and lack of economic hope which makes improving outcomes impossible which reinforces no economic hope and crime and so on.

We are in complete agreement that family factors are are absolutely paramount.


Lit you are being very nice and cordial, but this issue is pretty black and white. Guys like Franco (their are millions in the USA) are greedy. They want theirs and as long as they get theirs they dont give a fuck about anyone else. They know they need a certain percentage of the populace to be uneducated and only have the ability to earn the exorbitant salary of $7.75 per hr.. They need those people so they can have someone to pick up their towel at their club, cut their grass cheaply so they can go to their club, shine their $400 loafers, make them their clubhouse sandwich at the club earning $7.75 per hour so the sandwich only costs $8.00 and they keep more for themselves. They are the only ones who studied, worked hard and earned this lavish lifestyle. THEY are special.

Understanding investment in things like public education will only serve to educate their "$7.75 slave" and perhaps cause them to revolt which will drive up the cost of getting their grass cut and clubhouse sandwich are unacceptable. We must have the haves (me) and the have nots (them). So they pay inner city teachers $35,000 a year, they make their parents work for $7.75 per hour, and the vicious cycle of poverty and crime, and drug abuse propagates itself over and over and over, and Franco gets to keep his.

Living in a socialist country I see first hand every day why paying more into social programs benefits ALL of society even for greedy fucks like the Franco's of the world. We dont have any south beaches, or Palm Springs, or Rodeo drives or Mara Lago's to speak of but our society as a whole is much healthier and its because we treat ALL of the sick, we educate ALL of the people, we fix ALL of the roads, we protect ALL of the people equally etc etc etc. As a result our society is much healthier for ALL of the people. There are countless studies conducted annually on happiest countries and the USA always ranks low. Considering it is the richest country in the world should it not also be one of the happiest??. See below. Count down begins for next greedy fucker to tell us why this is not important and erroneous and that pesky things like statistics that threaten their wealth and standard of living (Global warming statistics??) are useless. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

After ranking fourth for the last two years, Norway jumped three spots and displaced three-time winner Denmark to take the title of "world's happiest country" for the first time in 2016.
Denmark dropped to second place this year, followed by Iceland, Switzerland, Finland, Netherlands, Canada, New Zealand and Australia and Sweden (which tied for ninth place), according to the latest World Happiness Report, released Monday by the Sustainable Development Solutions Network for the United Nations.
Denmark has won the title three of the four times the report has been issued, while Switzerland has won the title just once.
The United States came in 14th place, dropping one place from last yea


Norway has roughly the population of Colorado with a VERY homogenous population and a massive amount of natural resources per capita. Which I'm sure you know if you live there. Apples to Oranges would be an understatement.


You are living in a river in Egypt DENILE


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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:50 am 
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http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2096 ... -flag-play

What will he do if the players call his bluff?

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:50 pm 
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I want to know who decides what is political and what is not.

The mention of pence bailing on a game as a political stunt is verboten.

But mentions of Castro or Venezuela to prove a political point are OK? It's a fine line, and someone has to be the ombudsman. Unfortunately, there is nobody qualified to be that person.

There has to be a better way.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:01 am 
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The NFL changes it's policy on National Anthem
https://deadspin.com/the-nfl-quietly-ch ... 1819300660

Quote:
The 2014 policy reads that failure to be on the field by the start of the national anthem may “result in disciplinary action from the League office.” The version currently being promulgated by the NFL revises this to read “result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violation of the above, including first offenses.”

That’s a pretty big change for two reasons: They’ve added a lot of punishment, and they’ve removed the language that punishment would come from the league office. We don’t know when the change was made; its language did not appear on the web at all until two weeks ago, and questions sent to an NFL spokesperson have yet to be answered.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:20 pm 
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Some states prohibit discrimination based on political belief :
Quote:
Mark Tushnet, law professor, Harvard University
The answer's the same as the one given when people asked whether private employers can fire supporters of the Charlottesville white supremacy demonstrations: The general rule is yes, but that has to be qualified because some states have anti-discrimination laws that prohibit employment discrimination on the basis of political affiliation, and some of those statutes might be interpreted to cover the players' activities.
This page lists the states that detail workplace discrimination based on political activism, affiliation, or belief : https://www.workplacefairness.org/retal ... activity#1

More interesting anecdotes :
Quote:
Like most states, and like the federal government in Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, New York does not include “political views” or “political activities” in its list of categories protected by discrimination laws. However, the New York statute does prohibit discrimination on the basis of “creed.” Although the “creed” clause is most commonly invoked to prohibit discrimination on the basis of religion, the word has a sufficiently broad dictionary definition to include political beliefs as well.
and
Quote:
However, the EEOC goes on to state that “[s]ocial, political, or economic philosophies . . . are not ‘religious’ beliefs protected by Title VII.” This is a distinction that is difficult to define, and the EEOC makes no serious attempt to do so. If the facts presented in a particular case are favorable, it may be possible to convince a court that the distinction between protected non-theistic ethical beliefs on the one hand and unprotected political philosophies on the other is so untenable as to be arbitrary and capricious. This would open the door to at least some types of claims of political discrimination in federal court.
From here : http://www.nylaborandemploymentlawrepor ... -new-york/

Also : The Flag code

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/4/8

Quote:
(d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a speaker’s desk, draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general
If people get their panties in a twist over kneeling during the anthem, why not for flags as bikini's? After all, wearing a flag bikini bottom is like wiping your ass with the flag.

It also brings to mind the arguments over the pledge of allegiance. Although it was restricted to public not private schools and slightly different, the arguments were parallel. From Wiki :
Quote:
Some people generally oppose the pledge because they feel that the mandatory recital of what amounts to an oath, particularly by children, led by government employees in public schools, is a form of compulsory speech, amounting to indoctrination, that is the antithesis of the liberty the flag itself represents.[35] Indeed, in Barnette, Justices Black and Douglas wrote in a concurring opinion, "Words uttered under coercion are proof of loyalty to nothing but self-interest. Love of country must spring from willing hearts and free minds, inspired by a fair administration of wise laws enacted by the people's elected representatives within the bounds of express constitutional prohibitions." And, the majority opinion by Justice Robert Jackson, included one of the great statements in American constitutional law and history, "If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein.'"
But if J. Jones benches or cuts players that kneel, what if it's Prescott, Elliot, and Bryant? Half the defense? It would surely mean they'd lose games easily. Then what? Is Jones prepared to lose advertisers because the cowboys are in last place? Or lose ticket sales? What if that happens throughout the league? It would surely mean the demise of the NFL. Threats of retaliation is unproductive and incendiary.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:54 pm 
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Unless the bikini or tshirt was an actual flag cut up and made into an article of clothing it violates nothing. So please, enough with that comparison. A girl can wear a red white and blue bikini with stars and stripes.

https://www.legion.org/flag/questions-a ... tates-flag

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:09 pm 
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That’s splitting hairs and missing the point. The anthem is a symbol, as is the flag. I guess by your logic swastikas can be used anywhere as long as it’s not on an actual nazi or nazi flag? Is that like holy water? You can use regular water for a bidet but not holy water? Frankly, I think you should be able to wipe your ass with a flag, and use a swastika wherever you want. It was around long before ww2. That’s probably why I don’t care if people take a knee or take a shit during the anthem.

But the cognitive dissonance of being so goddamn fervent in fightn’ fer freedoms, do whatever the fuck you want as long as it's not unconstitutional, don’t tread on me, then whine like a snowflake because someone isn’t as patriotic as you is making my head hurt.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:32 pm 
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The NFL AND the players are so stupid about this Anthem BS

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2098 ... them-stand

Quote:
PHILADELPHIA -- Eagles safety Malcolm Jenkins said that players around the league will continue in their efforts to raise awareness about social injustice regardless of how the NFL decides to address demonstrations during the national anthem.

"I think we've seen even over the last year that you can take a player out of the league, you can threaten to do whatever you want to do, that's not going to deter players from doing what's right, or doing what they believe is right," Jenkins said Tuesday. "You might be able to change the manner in which that looks but I don't see players stopping their pursuit for justice or equality."


The NFL could have defused this by telling teams to stay in the locker room until the Anthem is over. In 4 weeks know one would remember it happened. Now you will get a showdown. And Trump wins no matter what happens. Everyone else, including the fans, lose.

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