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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:19 am 
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jebrick wrote:
Nick79 wrote:
955876 wrote:
Matter of fact, looking at the proposed tax cuts coming out today I might not even get a break.

Guess what though, I'm fine with that as long as they aren't raised. Which was the alternative.


The joke of the Republican tax cuts is millionaires will save thousands upon thousands, and regular slugs will cheer because they saved $200 for the year, whoopee!


The devil will be in the details. What is proposed and what get voted on are very different. The current proposal is very good for business. As it currently stands (from my understanding) 955876's taxes will go up because he lives in California. Not being able to deduct state income taxes will hurt. Once they start announcing what extra taxes are being removed and what loopholes are closed we will see the battle start. As it currently stands, this will drive the deficit way up.


Yes, I pay the AMT too. It's a historical relic that penalizes upper middle class in very expensive areas of the country as well as some small businesses. Do away with it and I think you'll see much more consumer spending and investment from that group. As for the deficit, that will depend on growth and incoming revenues.


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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:34 am 
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Stinger8 wrote:
franco32 wrote:
The Roy Moore comment is a great illustration of how communication breaks down. We try to discuss good ideas and policies that might help, and then boom, we get name calling over Roy Moore. Roy has some crazy ideas and some great ones. But, we will only focus on the crazy ones. Even if the good ideas will help me and my family, I will fight the Roy Moore's of the world to death and block all of his attempts to change things because he believes in X, Y, or Z. Roy wants tax reform for the middle class? Let's stop it because he doesn't like men marrying each other. Nothing will ever get done in this country if we keep reasoning in absolutes (as someone said earlier) and backing only people that are "ideologically pure".


Wow doubling down, cool. Roy Moore is a P.O.S. A guy that says gay people can't get married or that gay people should not have children, who said Obama was not born in the states and waves a gun at a rally, who insists ten commandment monuments should stay in the state legislature (separation of church and state??) is a lunatic. When you say that stuff all wrong, and illegal in some cases you void the possibility of having your good idea's listened to. I bet Franco you thought Hitler had some good idea's that were over looked cause he had some bad one's too. For all your bragging about your "accomplishments" you are very transparent, you want more shekels in your pocket at whatever cost to society. You are morally bankrupt. Own it, be proud thats who you are.


LOL with the Hitler comparisons. As if Roy Moore is killing millions of people and out for world domination. Whenever I hear that hyperbole, I think people must have just slept through history class. I think Maxine Waters and Nancy Pelosi are lunatics. But if they support good policies, why should I cut my nose off to spite my face. Using your logic, if I disagree with someone or think I'm morally superior to them, then I can never compromise. How do you think that is going to work out for the world?

I really don't know why you are so angry. You assume you are morally superior to Americans because you have a bigger welfare state. Yet, you know nothing about me or 955876. Did it ever occur to you that we might also do good with the money we save? Have you ever heard of church donations or private charities? You assume because we want to retain more of our "shekels" that means we are selfish greedy people. What a load of BS. That's small minded and frankly I think you know better. You don't judge a person on how much they are willing to give to bureaucrats in Ottawa or DC...because frankly that is compelled for the most part. You judge them through their actions and deeds. What are they doing on their time to help mankind and make the world a better place?

Your problem is that you inherently think the other side is somehow evil. We'll never bridge any divides with that sort of thinking. Open up your mind. You may realize the other side isn't the devil...they just approach the problem differently than you do.


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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:16 am 
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Nick79 wrote:
955876 wrote:
Matter of fact, looking at the proposed tax cuts coming out today I might not even get a break.

Guess what though, I'm fine with that as long as they aren't raised. Which was the alternative.


The joke of the Republican tax cuts is millionaires will save thousands upon thousands, and regular slugs will cheer because they saved $200 for the year, whoopee!


Have you read the tax plan? It is not even finalized and you've already determined what it is.


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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:51 am 
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Tundralag wrote:
Nick79 wrote:
955876 wrote:
Matter of fact, looking at the proposed tax cuts coming out today I might not even get a break.

Guess what though, I'm fine with that as long as they aren't raised. Which was the alternative.


The joke of the Republican tax cuts is millionaires will save thousands upon thousands, and regular slugs will cheer because they saved $200 for the year, whoopee!



and when they do they will help create jobs or add more to the economy.. as for saving 200.00 I would be fine with that.. sure beats putting on some 28inch rims on some drug dealers escalade while he is collecting welfare and EBT..


But you obviously believe in that trickle down NONSENSE and I think that's just a scam for the rich to hoard even more of the pie.


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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:52 am 
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jebrick wrote:
Nick79 wrote:
955876 wrote:
Matter of fact, looking at the proposed tax cuts coming out today I might not even get a break.

Guess what though, I'm fine with that as long as they aren't raised. Which was the alternative.


The joke of the Republican tax cuts is millionaires will save thousands upon thousands, and regular slugs will cheer because they saved $200 for the year, whoopee!


The devil will be in the details. What is proposed and what get voted on are very different. The current proposal is very good for business. As it currently stands (from my understanding) 955876's taxes will go up because he lives in California. Not being able to deduct state income taxes will hurt. Once they start announcing what extra taxes are being removed and what loopholes are closed we will see the battle start. As it currently stands, this will drive the deficit way up.


Thank God for the GOP deficit hawks.


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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:10 am 
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I don't recall any complaints when Obama literally doubled our national debt.

Again Nick, what it's the details that show this is a tax break for the rich? Instead of just saying it, show it.

I see lots of jabs at trickle down. Fair enough provided you can detail how trickle up works better...


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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:38 am 
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Quote:
From the start, Bush embraced a governing philosophy of deregulation. That trickled down to federal oversight agencies, which in turn eased off on banks and mortgage brokers. Bush did push early on for tighter controls over Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, but he failed to move Congress. After the Enron scandal, Bush backed and signed the aggressively regulatory Sarbanes-Oxley Act. But SEC head William Donaldson tried to boost regulation of mutual and hedge funds, he was blocked by Bush's advisers at the White House as well as other powerful Republicans and quit. Plus, let's face it, the meltdown happened on Bush's watch.
Just like everyone blames Obama for Isis. And bush's return to deficits coupled with an illegal war and tax cuts for the rich? Sarbanes-Oxley is the only thing Bush did, but it was without teeth and nobody on the republican side wanted it.

http://content.time.com/time/specials/p ... 20,00.html

Quote:
These experts, from both political parties, say Bush's early personnel choices and overarching antipathy toward regulation created a climate that, if it did not trigger the turmoil, almost certainly aggravated it. The president's first two Treasury secretaries, for instance, lacked the kind of Wall Street expertise that might have helped them raise red flags about the use of complex financial instruments at the heart of the crisis.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/20/business/worldbusiness/20iht-prexy.4.16321064.html

But nah, I'm out of my element. Right? Financial experts agree with me. Go figure. I also never said there wasn't blame to go around, but the over arching concept that de-regulated markets and handing or redistributing wealth to the top 1% or 10% is desirable has been proven wrong, yet again. But hey. Context means everything. Preventing a single idiot from having new rims while on welfare is more important, and letting corporations skirt their fair share of taxes so they can "create more jobs" is better, even though it's a lie. President Bush created 2.1 million jobs during his eight-year term. He lost 3.6 million jobs in 2008, his last year in office. Obama created over 17 million, with an obstructionist congress. The Bush administration, as other republican administrations, advocate cutting taxes to the wealthy and corporations, and de-regulating industry. His tax cuts amounted to what. $600 per individual? That really puts a dent in your taxes, eh? I've posted this before but CA is doing much better economically than other states with low taxes and lighter regulation. It's a fact. One shared by economic experts, not just some guy on the internet. But it's one that gets ignored when republican leaders say their tax plan is going to the best thing ever and will create jobs. Like 50K additional coal mining jobs when there are only 50K coal mining jobs to be had? The culture and economy is changing. It's not the 1950's anymore. Wall street had losses in the crisis. They made up those losses within a year. Have all those gains "trickled down?" Not bloodly likely. People have yet to recover from a preventable crisis ten years later. This economy is built on boom and bust, and the only ones that win are the ones with bucket loads of money, who can take the risk, while those on the bottom scrape everything they can to get by.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:46 pm 
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franco32 wrote:

Yes, I pay the AMT too. It's a historical relic that penalizes upper middle class in very expensive areas of the country as well as some small businesses. Do away with it and I think you'll see much more consumer spending and investment from that group. As for the deficit, that will depend on growth and incoming revenues.


I know it's history. I just have never heard it applied to businesses. If small businesses were being hit by it then it might help growth. I am not going to go out and spend a AMT refund as I am a saver and we live more frugally than many. If they are looking to help consumer spending the congress needs to focus on the $40k-$60K salary range ( or a bit lower). There are a lot of them and the money will get spent. That is what drove growth in the 90's.

I do not agree with many things Cor-ten has said but the Bush tax cuts plus Medicare part D have been a big deficit hits. Not a hit on W but his Congress(2000-2006)spent money in a away that made drunken sailors blush. No other Congress since has done anything to rein in the spending. Until someone had the balls to tackle entitlements and defense spending I do not see much that will help beyond a bandaid. I personally think that if the people want Medicare part D then raise the taxes to pay for it. If you want to send troops into a war, raise the taxes to pay for it.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:57 pm 
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Nick79 wrote:
[
Nick79 wrote:
Matter of fact, looking at the proposed tax cuts coming out today I might not even get a break.

Guess what though, I'm fine with that as long as they aren't raised. Which was the alternative.


But you obviously believe in that trickle down NONSENSE and I think that's just a scam for the rich to hoard even more of the pie.


It may be a scam but when is the last time a dude on welfare offered you a job..

People have to stop hating the people that worked there asses off and made something of themselves..
Just because some poor dude that doesn't want to apply himself does not give him the right to my money that I worked my ass off for.. Simple as that..


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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:31 pm 
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Nick79 wrote:

But you obviously believe in that trickle down NONSENSE and I think that's just a scam for the rich to hoard even more of the pie.


Part owner of a small business - the 20% corp rate would most likely allow us to hire another person or give 3 of our young guys a raise.

You don't know what you are talking about.


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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:36 pm 
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Took you all those days of googling?

Go google Community reinvestment act. That goes back to Jimmy Carter and really was a good
thing as it helped to end lending discrimination based on race etc that had been taking place.

Then go look at the modifications Bill Clinton did to Community Reinvestment Act. A part of his campaign promises was to expand and increases home ownership. One way of accomplishing that was by having the banks greatly relax their lending & underwriting standards. That's what have way to the "ninja" loans. In other words no income no job. It's used sarcastically but the point remains that underwriting standards were significantly reduced. People were "qualifying" for much larger and more expensive homes because (a) underwriting requirements were very laxed and (b) the use of adjustable rate mortgages gave buyers a false (and temporary) sense of what their mortgage was really going to cost. These people were buying way more house than their income & assets could afford. Something that would have never happened prior to Cigar Willy allowing banks to reduce their underwriting standards. Banks weren't going to say no because it was a huge money maker. For them and multiple other industries. And this in part helped fuel the Clinton economy. He gets a lot of credit for how the economy performed under his watch but things like this were part of what fueled that. And given the way the economic cycle works, the fallout from these choices wouldn't be seen until the next administration was in office.

And then you have a government sponsored entity like Fannie Mae packaging these subprime ARMs with regular 30 year mortgages. Problem there was these mortgage backed securities were getting the same AAA rating. These bonds are then sold to Wall Street. Wall Street sells them again. Lots of large public pensions etc have to buy this paper as part of their investment policy statement. Some entities use stuff like mortgage backed securities to hedge against other things. Not an issue in the past with that MBS is stuffed full of 30 year mortgages from buyers with good credit and the income & assets to support said loan. Default rates historically very low. But a BIG problem if what you believe is AAA rates paper is actually full of garbage. Garbage that is about to explode when the economy slows down (again, business cycle happens to both parties) and those adjustable rate loans start to adjust.

So all of this was done pre-Bush. All of this primed the pump. This was a loaded cannon with hot powder and the fuse in place. All pre-Bush. And that's the difference in the sincerity of our argument. You devoutly stick to your party and can only see the other side as causing problems. Sure Bush further relaxed some regs. I cant deny that. But was any of it more significant than what I just posted? Does Bush relaxing regs have the same impact had Clinton not loaded the gun? So when you frame your argument that "Bush did this" without acknowledging the very BIG role his predecessor had in the mess it leads one to believe you are out of your depth. Me in he other hand can see blame from both sides while you ignore your chosen side completely. And you are not alone. Can't tell you how many times I've heard the b, b, bu, bu, Bush argument when it comes to the financial crisis while having no clue about what had been brewing years prior under Clinton.

There is a whole other part to this as well when you take those mortgage backed securities that were then chopped up into various collaterized debt obligations (CDOs) that had tranches of good and bad debt.

And then people wanted a means of insuring a CDO in the event of a default which gave rise to the credit default swap.

I could go on and on and on from here.

Difference is I'm just typing this out while you spend 3 days trying to Google Bush & financial crisis to see what sticks.

I'm not saying he is without any blame Cor-ten. But you are or at least were placing all the blame at his feet in your initial argument

And those "financial experts" that agree with you are only looking at one sliver of it as were you. Had Clinton not eliminated long standing lending standards we likely never get into that mess to begin with.

Hopefully you can see now it's much much bigger than just Bush.


Last edited by 955876 on Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:38 pm 
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Quote:
Bush did push early on for tighter controls over Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac,


Hmmm


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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:45 pm 
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I mean seriously, you can't force banks to make loans in the name of economic fairness and then give them numerous outs whether it be a derivative package or a GSE to purchase the loans, and expect things to work out.

The loud mouth of defense of GSE's Freddie and Fannie was disgusting enough, but even worse, for those same people to be outraged afterwards... disgusting.

Jim Johnson, Angelo Mozillo, Chris Dodd... some of them should have been thrown in prison.


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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:55 pm 
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Different but in some ways similiar problem with student loans.

There used to be a marketplace. Obama stepped in and made it where the gov is biggest player. Eliminated a lot of competition. Similiar to how Clinton assured the banks the government was going to buy the loans. Banks had tight underwiting back in the day because the loan was between you and bank. That was changed. Made so the loan was sold as soon as the ink was dry. Banks had no risk from that spect so they were cranking out the garbage loans knowing Uncle Sam would be right there with cash in hand to take it off their books.

When schools knew the gov was handing out loans left and right what happened?

Tuition skyrocketed. Kids will have the money because the gov will lend it.

Then he comes back in and floats ideas about forgiving that student loan debt.

Great, taxpayer can pick that up too.

Spending other people's money is always so easy & fun.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how trickle up works. It's been asked, several have dismissed trickle down, sooooo who is going to step to the plate with a sound argument of how trickle up grows an economy?


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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:18 pm 
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Ah yes. Like a priority in my life is to do research to prove a self important asshole on the internet is a self important asshole. Never mind I have a life, unlike some that spend their working day on a football forum beating dead horses trying to legitimize themselves. Besides, if feels complimentary that you seem to have a stick up your ass for me. I must be doing something right.

And for those with faulty reading comprehension skills.

Quote:
I also never said there wasn't blame to go around,. . .
But keep up the good work. I'll await your respons. . .err. . insult and condescension, because I know you won't/can't let this go.

Carry on -

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:50 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
Ah yes. Like a priority in my life is to do research to prove a self important asshole on the internet is a self important asshole. Never mind I have a life, unlike some that spend their working day on a football forum beating dead horses trying to legitimize themselves. Besides, if feels complimentary that you seem to have a stick up your ass for me. I must be doing something right.

And for those with faulty reading comprehension skills.

Quote:
I also never said there wasn't blame to go around,. . .
But keep up the good work. I'll await your respons. . .err. . insult and condescension, because I know you won't/can't let this go.

Carry on -


You said that AFTER it had to be pointed out to you.

And I don't have a stick up my butt for you. I have a stick up my butt with how you routinely slip into threads that:

1) Capitalism is bad
2) Free markets are evil
3) You need the government and massive regulation to save you from 1 & 2.

And I'm not working this week. Have some construction projects being done around the house. So time on my hands. Also, check your post count sparky. You post more than I...

And those projects are also putting money into the pockets of local business & workers.

And THATS but another reason "trickle down" can have an impact. Gov takes too much from me the less I have to apply elsewhere.

Multiple families are better off because of how I chose to spend my earned dollars.


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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:17 pm 
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955876, back to our earlier discussion about teacher pay.

I take it that you see that it is of no fault of kids in shitty school districts that their schools are shitty. And I take it that you see that early childhood education makes a gigantic difference for a person's attitude toward school and themselves.

And I take it you see that kids are not free loaders looking for handouts.

Two things I am in favor of. Massive redistribution of wealth to intervene in shitty districts and turn them around. You simply have to pay enough money to people competent to turn these places around. It is a giant cluster fuck. Inner city teachers, even shitty ones, are saints. The turn over rate is horrendous.

Universal access to free community college for TRADE skills (not college transfer classes, trade skills only) for those who cannot afford it.

We can end the need for handouts and dependence by giving the historically disadvantaged the same chance as others as children. Children who live in poverty and drug infested shit holes have so much working against them. The idea that the playing field is level is RISIBLE.

I will concede you everything you want about lazy adults if it will get you to agree to my point about education of the young.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:52 pm 
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I have no issues with that Lit and agree with you. And if I knew my tax dollars were funneling there more exclusively I wouldn't come off as such a crank about this stuff.

Our government grossly over spends OUR money. Without any recourse either. I don't like seeing we lent out $80 million dollars to build a grand hotel in Kabul. A hotel that will not get finished or loans repaid. And is now requiring US tax payer $$$ to maintain and guard and unfinished nothing burger.

I don't like seeing $300 million or whatever it was in foreign denominated currency landing in Iran in the dead of night.

I don't like seeing tax payer funded covert programs such as the one that allowed for straw purchases of firearms by Mexican Cartels where one of those weapons is later used to kill one of our own customs agents. And then for the President to have the nerve to use that incident as propaganda for pushing his gun agenda. Knowing full well where that gun came from.

I could go on.

Your post though, where do I sign up?

Even more so if a concession was given that we are no longer the social savior of the world. I'm not without compassion. Hell, I cried watching fucking March of the Penguins. Another time I was on a flight and I am Sam was in flight movie. Damn well ended up crying then to. On the stinking plane.

So I care about things and people. I donate to charity.

I just know economically we can't allow people to walk in and receive food, shelter, clothing, education, and healthcare perpetually. It's just not possible. Legal immigration i'm fine with. Showing up, getting free shit, and then being allowed to vote in our elections I say fuck no. Especially when Inkniwnthe real reason for this migration push is to create an additional segment of voters.

Your post I'm on board with. More needs to be done in those areas to get the kids in the right track educationally and like you said skills wise. Do so before crime is an attractive alternative.

Really liked your idea about the trades. You can put a kid in college all expenses paid. Doesn't keen they will end up a doctor, lawyer, teacher, business person etc.

Open access to programs that will give them a skill. When my AC goes out I want someone out here fast. Those jobs pay decently and are in demand.


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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:30 pm 
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Like Rubio said, the world does not need more philosophy majors. :lol:

We don't need affirmative action for college. Everyone sees it is unfair. We need affirmative action for childhood education. Universal access to quality preschool education. Universal access to good school districts. Then there is no reason to set quotas at the college level.

The problem is how to ensure that the distribution of wealth toward that end is not wasted. Charter schools are good in theory. Jury is out. Some are good some are a joke.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:58 pm 
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955876 wrote:
I'm still waiting for someone to explain how trickle up works. It's been asked, several have dismissed trickle down, sooooo who is going to step to the plate with a sound argument of how trickle up grows an economy?


1) I think I remember you posting that you have a degree in Economics, so I'm sure you know more about Demand-side economics than I do and can answer your own question. Put more money in the hands of poor and middle class people, they go out and spend it thereby spurring business. Business owners make money, they hire more people to deal with the growing demand. Those people then take their new paychecks and buy stuff spurring the economy further.

2) Or, we cut taxes for the rich. They are supposed to then hire more people, but do they? Why would they hire more people if the demand for their business has not increased? Seems all too often the extra money the rich get from tax cuts ends up in tax-free Caymen Island accounts where it does noone any good.

3) Hillary's quote was "You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right? The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic -- you name it." Hillary didn't call ALL Trump voters deplorable, although I can see that they like to pretend she did so they can wear it like a badge of honor. Tee hee! Hillary called me a deplorable! If you're a racist and you voted for Trump for racist reasons, sure, she called you a deplorable. Wear it with pride! If not, then she wasn't talking about you.

4) I say there was no appreciable voter fraud in the last election so that Hillary's vote total does indeed approach 3 million more votes than Trump. I also say the burden of proof is on you. If you (and Trump) think Hillary's popular vote count should be significantly less but for illegals voting, prove it.

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