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 Post subject: Re: Is it just me...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:01 pm 
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Aside from the obvious reasons like more and more rules that are arbitrarily and not equally enforced, part of why the on field product is not as good as many of us remember (IMO) is lack of contrasting styles.

Back in the day offenses featured the run & shoot, west coast offense, ground & pound etc.

Defenses also had more variety.

Today it seems every team is just a slightly different and watered down version of some other current team. All copying each other in fear of being different & not succeeding.

The rules have played a big role in getting us here.

It was fun watching other games because a lot of teams just did things differently. Styles mattered.

Not so much today.

The game has been boiled down to who has the better QB & coaches. Styles matter not.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it just me...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:16 pm 
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955876 wrote:
Aside from the obvious reasons like more and more rules that are arbitrarily and not equally enforced, part of why the on field product is not as good as many of us remember (IMO) is lack of contrasting styles.

Back in the day offenses featured the run & shoot, west coast offense, ground & pound etc.

Defenses also had more variety.

Today it seems every team is just a slightly different and watered down version of some other current team. All copying each other in fear of being different & not succeeding.

The rules have played a big role in getting us here.

It was fun watching other games because a lot of teams just did things differently. Styles mattered.

Not so much today.

The game has been boiled down to who has the better QB & coaches. Styles matter not.


I agree with this, 95. Good points.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it just me...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:42 am 
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I would also add the CBA rules for limiting practice time for preseason camps and OTAs. Football teams are constantly losing and adding players. Limiting the amount of time the new players can practice with their teams hurts the overall product.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it just me...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:01 pm 
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Pabst wrote:
It seems like the focus of these leagues is to extract money from people, rather than focusing on putting a quality product on the field.
Isn't that the focus pretty much everywhere there are commodities and services to consume?

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 Post subject: Re: Is it just me...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:32 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
Pabst wrote:
It seems like the focus of these leagues is to extract money from people, rather than focusing on putting a quality product on the field.
Isn't that the focus pretty much everywhere there are commodities and services to consume?

It's always a balance. The producer is trying to charge as much as possible and the customer wants to pay as little as possible. They're forced to meet somewhere in the middle. Honestly, I don't care if a company is making alot of money on something, since I'm in no way forced to buy it.

My main point was that sports leagues just assume that people will fork over $100+ for a ticket, $8 for a beer, $30 for a tshirt, or sit through endless commercials at home. I think we're starting to see a tipping point where the costs are starting to outweigh the benefit (entertainment value) for the average fan. Also, i think the NFL is going so far to reach casual fans & new fans that they're starting to alienate their base (London game, moves to LA, pink in October, etc).

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 Post subject: Re: Is it just me...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:52 pm 
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Pabst wrote:
COR-TEN wrote:
Pabst wrote:
It seems like the focus of these leagues is to extract money from people, rather than focusing on putting a quality product on the field.
Isn't that the focus pretty much everywhere there are commodities and services to consume?

It's always a balance. The producer is trying to charge as much as possible and the customer wants to pay as little as possible. They're forced to meet somewhere in the middle. Honestly, I don't care if a company is making alot of money on something, since I'm in no way forced to buy it.

My main point was that sports leagues just assume that people will fork over $100+ for a ticket, $8 for a beer, $30 for a tshirt, or sit through endless commercials at home. I think we're starting to see a tipping point where the costs are starting to outweigh the benefit (entertainment value) for the average fan. Also, i think the NFL is going so far to reach casual fans & new fans that they're starting to alienate their base (London game, moves to LA, pink in October, etc).
Corporate by laws insure CEO's make decisions that increase the bottom line, foregoing things like quality and responsibility. The balance doesn't find itself. It's usually regulated. Otherwise, free markets are an uncaged/ unleashed beast, and the shitty product the NFL is producing by watering it down with advertisements and pink october and "passing league" offenses/ constricting defenses reflects that. Every decision made that is spun into customer service is usually for the benefit of the producer, not the consumer. Football is no different. Further, you'd be surprised how that focus and approach affects your everyday life, not just entertainment.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it just me...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:08 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
Corporate by laws insure CEO's make decisions that increase the bottom line, foregoing things like quality and responsibility.

And companies that do this typically go out of business. As an example: About 15 years ago, Circuit City decided to eliminate their commissioned pay structure and move to cheap, hourly labor. It saved them $130m in 2003....and it was considered a major factor in their bankruptcy 5 years later.

Honestly, I don't understand this mindset - If (for example) GM wants to start charging outrageous prices for shitty cars, what's to stop Ford, Toyota, Kia, or whomever from undercutting them?
It's entirely possibly to provide quality AND make money. Hell, we're probably 1000 miles apart and talking on computers on a website hosted on a server in God-knows-where. And someone is making money providing this service.


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The balance doesn't find itself. It's usually regulated.

Wal Mart and Amazon completely revolutionized supply chains and distribution networks.
Apple & Google changed how we use our phones and access information online.
Cisco created a LAN back in 1984 when most people had never even heard of the internet.

They made billions doing this, and there was no regulation involved.

I could go on for days here - There are thousands of examples of companies creating new things or providing better value for customers with no regulation at all. I'm not necessarily against basic government oversight; but do you honestly believe that (as an example) restaurants would start regularly serving spoiled food if there were no health inspectors? That planes would start crashing left and right with no FAA?

Honestly, Federal oversight tends to lag behind the market pretty badly - The Feds blocked a merger between Blockbuster and Hollywood video in the mid-2000s, saying it would create a monopoly in video rentals. Both companies were out of business within a decade because of the emergence of online streaming. Did regulation really help anyone there?

I'm not saying that shitty businesses don't exist, and I'm not saying that asshole corporate fat cats don't exist. What I'm saying is that no corporation can make money unless they provide a good/service that customers are willing to buy. In order for them to be greedy in the first place, they have to serve people. And nothing will kick these people in the ass more than if/when customers start walking away.



I know this is off topic, but I'm just stating my view.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it just me...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:49 pm 
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Pabst wrote:
I know this is off topic, but I'm just stating my view.
All good points. I want to respond but have no time right now. Give me a day or two to reply. 1000 miles away. . .

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 Post subject: Re: Is it just me...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:10 pm 
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BethlehemSteel wrote:
It's entertainment product and it's scripted

Yes we all need to swallow that simple fact


So they're deliberately scripting a terrible product that is painful to watch?

That makes perfect sense!

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 Post subject: Re: Is it just me...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:14 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
Corporate by laws insure CEO's make decisions that increase the bottom line, foregoing things like quality and responsibility. The balance doesn't find itself. It's usually regulated. Otherwise, free markets are an uncaged/ unleashed beast, and the shitty product the NFL is producing by watering it down with advertisements and pink october and "passing league" offenses/ constricting defenses reflects that. Every decision made that is spun into customer service is usually for the benefit of the producer, not the consumer. Football is no different. Further, you'd be surprised how that focus and approach affects your everyday life, not just entertainment.


Your example is flawed.

Maybe you might care to take a stab at why?

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 Post subject: Re: Is it just me...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:25 pm 
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The attendance at the USC-Texas game was more than the combined attendance of the Chargers and Rams games.

So no, it's not a diabolical conspiracy of the NFL to act against it's own economic interests (memo to lefties...when corporations act nefariously, it's to increase profits or get a deal from the government...such as stadium deals), its a bad product in an oversaturated market.

What happened with these LA teams is they saw what Ballmer got for the Clips and figured they'd instantly move to LA and better that. They were wrong.

I'm going to KC at Chargers next week. I suspect the fan ratio will be 3:1 for the visitor.

Too bad the NFL doesn't have an ETF I can buy naked puts on.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it just me...
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:00 pm 
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Quote:
The balance doesn't find itself.


Of course it does. Worsening product, increasing prices = decreased attendance/viewers and less money, sponsers and tv deals

So they either improve/evolve the product, or lower the prices. They've pushed fans to the tipping point. It took awhile but they are there. Now it's the NFLs move to balance the scales or continue on a decent to ruin.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it just me...
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:02 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
BethlehemSteel wrote:
It's entertainment product and it's scripted

Yes we all need to swallow that simple fact


So they're deliberately scripting a terrible product that is painful to watch?

That makes perfect sense!


I'm beginning to buy into the thought that they deliberately throw flags at opportune times to impact the game. Usually keeping it competitive for longer. IE: slow momentum with a holding call.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it just me...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:55 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
Pabst wrote:
I know this is off topic, but I'm just stating my view.
All good points. I want to respond but have no time right now. Give me a day or two to reply. 1000 miles away. . .
I have a response but it's long winded and I don't think this crowd wants to hear/read it. Let me know if you want me to PM you.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it just me...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:26 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
COR-TEN wrote:
Pabst wrote:
I know this is off topic, but I'm just stating my view.
All good points. I want to respond but have no time right now. Give me a day or two to reply. 1000 miles away. . .
I have a response but it's long winded and I don't think this crowd wants to hear/read it. Let me know if you want me to PM you.

Feel free.
I personally fall somewhere between Libertarian & Conservative (if that's not obvious), and one of my best friends is a true blue Bernie-Bro, so I have these kinds of discussions pretty often.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it just me...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:46 pm 
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Pabst wrote:
Feel free.
I personally fall somewhere between Libertarian & Conservative (if that's not obvious), and one of my best friends is a true blue Bernie-Bro, so I have these kinds of discussions pretty often.


I'd like to see it too.

I fall somewhere in the middle of both of you, although closer to Pabst most likely.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it just me...
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:24 am 
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Just to add to the data. An article on the ad spending for sports and how it is not sustainable.

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One of the biggest reasons for soaring cable rates is the bloated and soaring cost of sports programming. Similarly, one of the biggest causes for the unprecedented rise in cord cutting (ditching cable and going with a streaming alternative) is the cost of sports programming. Surveys have shown that 56% of ESPN viewers would dump the channel just to save the $8 per month it costs each subscriber. Once streaming alternatives emerged for the sports-bloated traditional cable bundles that let them do just that, users began flooding to the exits at a historic rate.

The reality is millions upon millions of customers don't give a shit about sports, yet are forced to pay $120 or more per month for cable bundles filled with content they don't watch, and didn't want. And when some cable companies initially tried to offer "skinny bundles" without ESPN or other sports networks, they were sued by ESPN for trying to give consumers what they wanted. And while that has slowly started to change with the rise of live TV streaming alternatives, for traditional cable providers something in this cycle of dysfunction needs to change. Quickly.

Case in point: Axios points to Magna's latest Media Sports Report that highlights how cable companies are now paying significantly more money for sports programming than they make off advertising during the games. For example, cable operators now pay the NBA $2.6 billion annually in licensing fees, but "only" make $1.3 billion from the ads run during sports events. The associated graphic highlights how it's the same for most leagues:

Of course cable companies make up for the difference by not only imposing endless cable TV rate hikes, but via the bevy of misleading fees they've long used to jack up the advertised rate of service post sale. But their ability to do this has been dramatically compromised by the mass exodus of users fleeing traditional cable. And the problem is notably worse for broadcast networks:

This (sic) economics are especially problematic for broadcast networks that carry live sports games, because they don't have access to subscription revenues to subsidize the high cost of programming, like cable networks do. Broadcasters rely on ratings, driven by viewership — which is getting increasingly older and aging out of the coveted 25-54 marketing demographic, as well as retransmission fees.

As a result, more sports distribution rights have migrated to cable networks — think TNT and TBS carrying the NBA and MLB, respectively. But there are problems there, too. Cable channels are losing subscribers to digital streaming options at the fastest rate ever. It's worth noting that both cable and broadcast networks make a substantial amount of money from retransmission fees (charging cable and satellite providers to carry their content), but collectively it's still not enough to completely offset the rate of increases to programming costs.

The report proceeds to state the obvious by proclaiming that analysts "don't see the ever-increasing gap between ad revenues and rights fees as sustainable in the long term," something cable subscribers could have told them years ago. Wall Street analysts have similarly been discussing how retransmission fee hikes and the soaring cost of programming simply isn't sustainable for the better part of the last decade, not that it appears to have changed the landscape -- or the executive quest to milk the traditional cable TV cash cow to death -- in any meaningful fashion.

This will likely most harm small cable TV operators, who have said they may just stop selling cable TV as margins get tighter. Don't feel too badly for larger cable providers like Comcast, however. As their TV margins get squeezed, they are simply using their monopoly over broadband to jack up the cost of broadband via unnecessary and confusing caps or overage fees. The end result: cable companies get their pound of flesh one way or the other, as users are punished for fleeing the cable and broadcast sectors' walled gardens and the seemingly endless TV rate hikes therein.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it just me...
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:17 am 
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and yet another article on the play in the NFL which focuses on the improvement of the defenses

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Two weeks into the NFL season, the game’s overall aesthetics are under fire. Scoring is down, sacks are up, and Brian Hoyer is still gainfully employed as a starting quarterback. Offenses, we’re being told, are in crisis. But are things really that bad?

Blame is being assigned to everything from reductions in practice time to the aging of some of the game’s better quarterbacks to the deterioration of offensive line play to rosters composed of cheaper, younger players thanks to the downward pressures of the rookie-wage scale. But there is another significant culprit, and it’s one that’s often mentioned in passing, assuming it’s even mentioned at all: Defenses have gotten better, and the NFL may right now be going through one of its periodic cycles in which defenses become dominant.


Quote:
A final thought: Jason Lisk of The Big Lead last year compiled a list of media references to the decline of the NFL’s quality of play. The conceit was that the list goes back 25 years, which means complaints about the game’s aesthetics are nothing new. If the kind of defensive dominance we’re now witnessing looks ugly, maybe it’s really because of a pair of questions Kelly posed last year on The Ringer. “Do we actually love defensive slugfests, then?” Kelly wondered. “Or are we just supposed to love defensive slugfests, even though they, in fact, suck?

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 Post subject: Re: Is it just me...
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:04 am 
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COR-TEN wrote:
COR-TEN wrote:
Pabst wrote:
I know this is off topic, but I'm just stating my view.
All good points. I want to respond but have no time right now. Give me a day or two to reply. 1000 miles away. . .
I have a response but it's long winded and I don't think this crowd wants to hear/read it. Let me know if you want me to PM you.



Feel free to either post it or PM it to me. I'd love to hear your response. Your posts are always excellent!


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 Post subject: Re: Is it just me...
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:41 pm 
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CEO's and in that of Presidents of team get too greedy with money and all too powerful.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it just me...
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:11 pm 
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Goodell's bullshit sanctimony today is only going to make it worse.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it just me...
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:58 pm 
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So goodell is good with neo nazis and white supremacists? I've never been a fan, but that's some
extremist shit right there. News to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it just me...
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:12 am 
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BethlehemSteel wrote:
It's entertainment product and it's scripted

Yes we all need to swallow that simple fact


That's my concern for today's game, the script might have changed in the last 24 hours. Politics influencing this game may have widened beyond the league, past regional into national where trillions of dollars are at play. We might have lost the opportunity for a reasonably clean game to a more controlled one. We'll know by the number of holding calls thwarting our offense early on.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it just me...
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:26 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
So goodell is good with neo nazis and white supremacists? I've never been a fan, but that's some
extremist shit right there. News to me.


Nah, Goodell simply stepped into the trap. Regardless of what you think, or what bubble you live in... not standing for the national anthem in terms of an issue is a loser and a big one. It's simply not going to be popular no matter how many black masks one wears.

Trump set the trap, and the idiots in the NFL fell or it... I heard democrat politicians are encouraging players to kneel during the anthem... yeah - go with that, real political winner in those rust belt states that Hillary got trounced in.

For the NFL - if they think the ratings drop and everything else they've experienced was hard - they haven't seen anything yet. Getting engaged was just stupid, it's exactly what Trump wanted.. for whatever reason the DC elites and even stooges like Goodell haven't figured that out yet.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it just me...
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:31 pm 
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Old School Steeler wrote:
BethlehemSteel wrote:
It's entertainment product and it's scripted

Yes we all need to swallow that simple fact


That's my concern for today's game, the script might have changed in the last 24 hours. Politics influencing this game may have widened beyond the league, past regional into national where trillions of dollars are at play. We might have lost the opportunity for a reasonably clean game to a more controlled one. We'll know by the number of holding calls thwarting our offense early on.


Well it depends, by the Steelers not taking the field for the anthem... if the league offices see it as a sign of solidarity with Goodell... then hey - maybe a few calls go their way.


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