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 Post subject: Re: YES! YES! YES!!!!! I LOVE YOU JON GRUDEN!!!!!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:40 pm 
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Pabst wrote:

My personal solution is that a ref can watch a replay once or twice at full speed. That should allow him to overturn obvious miscalls. If you can't instantly spot the mistake, then play on.



This please. I nominate Pabst to be in charge of the replay booth. He does not have to know the calls but just has to tell them that they have seen enough of the film and the call stands.

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 Post subject: Re: YES! YES! YES!!!!! I LOVE YOU JON GRUDEN!!!!!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:14 pm 
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I'm annoyed by the fact that last year they stopped doing the "incontrovertable evidence" standard to overturn calls on the field, and Riveron was judging plays from scratch independent of what the refs called on the field.


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 Post subject: Re: YES! YES! YES!!!!! I LOVE YOU JON GRUDEN!!!!!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:53 pm 
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Poltargyst wrote:
I'm annoyed by the fact that last year they stopped doing the "incontrovertable evidence" standard to overturn calls on the field, and Riveron was judging plays from scratch independent of what the refs called on the field.


And didn't really tell anyone.

I think that's why it was such a collosal failure. Refs in real time are, generally, calling it like everyone sees it. Then you have Riveron coming in to make a judgement call after a frame-by-frame review, often at odds with how everyone saw it at full speed.

I still can't reconcile some of the calls Riveron made because there was no logical consistency. It's really hard to dismiss the possibility he was putting his thumb on the scale.

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 Post subject: Re: YES! YES! YES!!!!! I LOVE YOU JON GRUDEN!!!!!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:38 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
Poltargyst wrote:
I'm annoyed by the fact that last year they stopped doing the "incontrovertable evidence" standard to overturn calls on the field, and Riveron was judging plays from scratch independent of what the refs called on the field.


And didn't really tell anyone.


That too. We didn't know that until after the fact, and I find that quite annoying.


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 Post subject: Re: YES! YES! YES!!!!! I LOVE YOU JON GRUDEN!!!!!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:14 am 
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Unlike most of you, I watch soccer too, and damn those mother fuckers added replay this year and ruined yet another sport! They where the last hold out, and I thought, since it's an international sport and anal, asshole, retard Americans don't run in, they'd hopefully not add this garbage, but they did and now, much like a catch in football, people don't know what a yellow card, red card, off sides is anymore, they just suddenly don't understand what's going on, they've become like the NFL, clueless and confused and yes..... ANOTHER SPORT RUINED !!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: YES! YES! YES!!!!! I LOVE YOU JON GRUDEN!!!!!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:36 am 
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Nick79 wrote:
Unlike most of you, I watch soccer too, and damn those mother fuckers added replay this year and ruined yet another sport! They where the last hold out, and I thought, since it's an international sport and anal, asshole, retard Americans don't run in, they'd hopefully not add this garbage, but they did and now, much like a catch in football, people don't know what a yellow card, red card, off sides is anymore, they just suddenly don't understand what's going on, they've become like the NFL, clueless and confused and yes..... ANOTHER SPORT RUINED !!!!!


Yeah, but the flip side in soccer is this crap:

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 Post subject: Re: YES! YES! YES!!!!! I LOVE YOU JON GRUDEN!!!!!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:42 pm 
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Pabst wrote:
Nick79 wrote:
Unlike most of you, I watch soccer too, and damn those mother fuckers added replay this year and ruined yet another sport! They where the last hold out, and I thought, since it's an international sport and anal, asshole, retard Americans don't run in, they'd hopefully not add this garbage, but they did and now, much like a catch in football, people don't know what a yellow card, red card, off sides is anymore, they just suddenly don't understand what's going on, they've become like the NFL, clueless and confused and yes..... ANOTHER SPORT RUINED !!!!!


Yeah, but the flip side in soccer is this crap:


I don't care, diving doesn't bother me, it's a tactic, part of the game, like the fake flop to draw the charge in basketball. 90% of the time in soccer, he falls down rolls around and really doesn't get the call, and PLAY GOES ON, uninterrupted. No we'll stop the game for 5 minutes to look at it again. Faking a fall to try and draw a foul is NO BIG DEAL, I never understood why people think it is. If MY TEAM'S GUY dives, and it's clearly a fake dive, and my team get's the call, I AM PROUD OF HIM for making the play in our favor.


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 Post subject: Re: YES! YES! YES!!!!! I LOVE YOU JON GRUDEN!!!!!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:16 pm 
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jebrick wrote:
Pabst wrote:

My personal solution is that a ref can watch a replay once or twice at full speed. That should allow him to overturn obvious miscalls. If you can't instantly spot the mistake, then play on.



This please. I nominate Pabst to be in charge of the replay booth. He does not have to know the calls but just has to tell them that they have seen enough of the film and the call stands.


Here's the problem with that: What if the first or second replay doesn't have the best angle? What if they're from the wrong side of the play or whatever, and don't show anything, but there's an angle they didn't get to where it is blatantly obvious?

Then you didn't really solve anything and winning a replay challenge suddenly involved being lucky enough to have the right replay angle shown.

I really don't think there is a perfect system. But then again, the toothpaste is already out of the tube and cutting replay all together is going to create even more controversy every time an obvious call is missed (which will be often).

Basically, the NFL is screwed in that regard. There's no way they can possibly fix this in a way that makes a majority of fans happy, in my opinion. The rule book has gotten entirely too cumbersome and fine grained to expect a referee to be able to call correctly in real time, and the replay system that would be required to make the calls at least closer to being correct is so time consuming, it kills the entertainment of the game. Attempting to find a compromise between the two only moves the needle between the two controversies.


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 Post subject: Re: YES! YES! YES!!!!! I LOVE YOU JON GRUDEN!!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:02 am 
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Louis Lipps Service wrote:
The rule book has gotten entirely too cumbersome and fine grained to expect a referee to be able to call correctly in real time, and the replay system that would be required to make the calls at least closer to being correct is so time consuming, it kills the entertainment of the game.


Taking the rule book and scrapping 50% of it is part of the solution. There are a lot of rules in there that can be dumped and nobody would notice they where gone. A lot of things even "what is a catch" can be simplified to the point that there's nothing to review if they wanted to. I actually think the league and a lot of fan want it the way it is.


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 Post subject: Re: YES! YES! YES!!!!! I LOVE YOU JON GRUDEN!!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:55 am 
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Nick79 wrote:
Louis Lipps Service wrote:
The rule book has gotten entirely too cumbersome and fine grained to expect a referee to be able to call correctly in real time, and the replay system that would be required to make the calls at least closer to being correct is so time consuming, it kills the entertainment of the game.


Taking the rule book and scrapping 50% of it is part of the solution. There are a lot of rules in there that can be dumped and nobody would notice they where gone. A lot of things even "what is a catch" can be simplified to the point that there's nothing to review if they wanted to. I actually think the league and a lot of fan want it the way it is.


That's not true. There will always be gray area in the catch rules. Always areas of debate. Even if you made the rule as simple as "Two feet in bounds, control of the ball". Well, what is control? If you even simplified that to mean "two hands on the ball", well what about one handed catches? You're going to legislate those out of the game? How do you definitely know when a player has control or not?

You don't, and you never will, which is exactly why the "catch" debate will never be solved now that this box has been opened.

Which means, yes, there will always be things to review should they choose to keep replay in, no matter how simple you make the rules. Football is a subjective game and will always have gray area, which by extension, means it will always have controversy going forward, no matter how much you change, or even eliminate replay. That part of the game is here to stay.


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I actually think the league and a lot of fan want it the way it is.


So you think the league likes all this controversy that just happens to be happening while ratings are taking a nose dive? Even if you took the "All publicity is good publicity" stance, that still doesn't stand up to any amount of logical thinking whatsoever. Fans are obviously livid and tired of debate over the most basic elements of the game continually being the center of attention. That's the real reasons ratings are down. It's not kneeling for an anthem, it's not players getting in trouble off the field, it's the fact that the league can't even manage to define what their game is actually supposed to be anymore.

There is zero chance the league "wants" that (otherwise, why would they keep changing the rules everytime there's public outcry over them?), and I sure as hell don't know of any fans that do. I have yet to see one fan say that they enjoy all this controversy over the rules, and I'd love to hear where you saw or heard a fan say they did. Though I suspect it's some theory you just concocted yourself without any basis whatsoever.


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 Post subject: Re: YES! YES! YES!!!!! I LOVE YOU JON GRUDEN!!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:34 am 
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How about this rule, a catch is control of the ball (control being a judgment, one hand, two hand, between the knees-doesn't matter-up to the ref) for one second, both feet in bounds (although, I'd even make that 1 foot, to make it even easier), NON-REVIEWABLE JUDGMENT CALL. End of discussion.

And I do think they like the controversy and constant discussion and you can tell some fans love it, with the way they hold on to replay for dear life! What if they make a mistake? Well I'm hear saying it, I'm willing to accept mistakes like we used to, to get rid of replay. So I'm not in that group.

So what if a bad call costs the Steelers a big game and there's no review? Well, with review, the Jesse James catch was overturned and cost the Steelers the biggest game of the year. So it's a wash in the end.


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 Post subject: Re: YES! YES! YES!!!!! I LOVE YOU JON GRUDEN!!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:39 am 
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Louis Lipps Service wrote:
...and I sure as hell don't know of any fans that do. I have yet to see one fan say that they enjoy all this controversy over the rules, and I'd love to hear where you saw or heard a fan say they did. Though I suspect it's some theory you just concocted yourself without any basis whatsoever.


It can all be ended by scrapping review and not complaining and whining over replays you see the day after the game, do you know of many fans that want review scrapped? I actually think the idea is gaining more popularity.


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 Post subject: Re: YES! YES! YES!!!!! I LOVE YOU JON GRUDEN!!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:46 am 
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I'm not interested in gambling, and sometimes I play fantasy football, and maybe have $50 or $100 on the line for the whole season, so I get it, I'm not in the position some people are where a bad call and no replay allowed could cost them their mortgage money, to me it literally is just entertainment, just a TV Show, so I actually do get over it quickly and don't care that much.... OTHER THAN THE JESSE JAMES PLAY!!!!! But replay CAUSED that error, it didn't prevent it, LOL.


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 Post subject: Re: YES! YES! YES!!!!! I LOVE YOU JON GRUDEN!!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:47 am 
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Nick79 wrote:
How about this rule, a catch is control of the ball (control being a judgment, one hand, two hand, between the knees-doesn't matter-up to the ref) for one second, both feet in bounds (although, I'd even make that 1 foot, to make it even easier), NON-REVIEWABLE JUDGMENT CALL. End of discussion.


That's not the end of the discussion though, no matter how many capital letters you use. NFL referees are awful at judgement calls, which is exactly why replay was re-instituted to begin with. So take away replay and yes, the game speeds up, which is a good thing, but that won't stop CBS/NBC/FOX from replaying it 1,000 times, from it dominating sports media the ensuing week, etc.

Literally, nothing changes from how it is now except you shave 5-10 minutes off the game. That's it. It solves nothing meaningful.

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And I do think they like the controversy and constant discussion and you can tell some fans love it, with the way they hold on to replay for dear life! What if they make a mistake? Well I'm hear saying it, I'm willing to accept mistakes like we used to, to get rid of replay. So I'm not in that group.


You're making a horrible jump in logic.

Wanting to keep replay does not mean people like the controversy. It means they have the foresight to understand what I said above about the controversy only getting worse without it. With replay, we at least have some sort of a chance to fix a bad call. Yes, it's very imperfect and too intrusive. But you can take steps to make that better.

Replay gets more calls right than you think. You just better remember the times they get it wrong because those are the instances that dominate the conversation. No one talks about when it gets it right because that's not newsworthy.

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So what if a bad call costs the Steelers a big game and there's no review? Well, with review, the Jesse James catch was overturned and cost the Steelers the biggest game of the year. So it's a wash in the end.


You're using one example to try and discredit an entire system. That's never, ever, a good argument.


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 Post subject: Re: YES! YES! YES!!!!! I LOVE YOU JON GRUDEN!!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:39 pm 
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Nick79 wrote:
How about this rule, a catch is control of the ball (control being a judgment, one hand, two hand, between the knees-doesn't matter-up to the ref) for one second, both feet in bounds (although, I'd even make that 1 foot, to make it even easier), NON-REVIEWABLE JUDGMENT CALL. End of discussion.



Then the one Eagles TD in the SB would not have counted. He exchanged hands with the ball and did not possess it with either hand for your required 1 second


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 Post subject: Re: YES! YES! YES!!!!! I LOVE YOU JON GRUDEN!!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:18 pm 
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Donnie Brasco wrote:
Nick79 wrote:
How about this rule, a catch is control of the ball (control being a judgment, one hand, two hand, between the knees-doesn't matter-up to the ref) for one second, both feet in bounds (although, I'd even make that 1 foot, to make it even easier), NON-REVIEWABLE JUDGMENT CALL. End of discussion.



Then the one Eagles TD in the SB would not have counted. He exchanged hands with the ball and did not possess it with either hand for your required 1 second


But with no replay, judgment call, if the ref throws up his arms, we aren't going to go ruin the day and "look at it again". So TD !!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: YES! YES! YES!!!!! I LOVE YOU JON GRUDEN!!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:23 pm 
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Louis Lipps Service wrote:
Nick79 wrote:
How about this rule, a catch is control of the ball (control being a judgment, one hand, two hand, between the knees-doesn't matter-up to the ref) for one second, both feet in bounds (although, I'd even make that 1 foot, to make it even easier), NON-REVIEWABLE JUDGMENT CALL. End of discussion.


That's not the end of the discussion though, no matter how many capital letters you use. NFL referees are awful at judgement calls, which is exactly why replay was re-instituted to begin with. So take away replay and yes, the game speeds up, which is a good thing, but that won't stop CBS/NBC/FOX from replaying it 1,000 times, from it dominating sports media the ensuing week, etc.

Literally, nothing changes from how it is now except you shave 5-10 minutes off the game. That's it. It solves nothing meaningful. ....Well I'm hear saying it, I'm willing to accept mistakes like we used to, to get rid of replay.


Make it part of the TV contract with the networks that the announcers stop talking about something looking like an error and don't show it with an attitude of trying to say it is not good, show it only at full speed and no multiple angles- I honestly wouldn't care, and probably wouldn't notice if they didn't bring it up and keep showing it. JUST LET IT GO. NEVER SAY---- "They're going to have to look at that again" , make that banned speech, like how you can't say retard anymore.

YES- CENSOR what the announcers can talk about if they want PAID.


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 Post subject: Re: YES! YES! YES!!!!! I LOVE YOU JON GRUDEN!!!!!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:56 am 
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Nick79 wrote:
Poltargyst wrote:
we need replay for the most egregious of errors, .


That would be nice if they could limit it to that, they don't even try! If you want to limit replay, you don't review every score, you don't review every turnover, you just review things that might have "most egregious of errors". And you limit it, like maybe give them 60 seconds max with no slow motion, why? Because if it really is "most egregious of errors" you don't need to slow it down to see it, because it's that obvious.


I can agree with this. Replay review is in real time and the official has 60 seconds to decide. Done.

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 Post subject: Re: YES! YES! YES!!!!! I LOVE YOU JON GRUDEN!!!!!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:18 am 
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Nick79 wrote:
Louis Lipps Service wrote:
Nick79 wrote:
How about this rule, a catch is control of the ball (control being a judgment, one hand, two hand, between the knees-doesn't matter-up to the ref) for one second, both feet in bounds (although, I'd even make that 1 foot, to make it even easier), NON-REVIEWABLE JUDGMENT CALL. End of discussion.


That's not the end of the discussion though, no matter how many capital letters you use. NFL referees are awful at judgement calls, which is exactly why replay was re-instituted to begin with. So take away replay and yes, the game speeds up, which is a good thing, but that won't stop CBS/NBC/FOX from replaying it 1,000 times, from it dominating sports media the ensuing week, etc.

Literally, nothing changes from how it is now except you shave 5-10 minutes off the game. That's it. It solves nothing meaningful. ....Well I'm hear saying it, I'm willing to accept mistakes like we used to, to get rid of replay.


Make it part of the TV contract with the networks that the announcers stop talking about something looking like an error and don't show it with an attitude of trying to say it is not good, show it only at full speed and no multiple angles- I honestly wouldn't care, and probably wouldn't notice if they didn't bring it up and keep showing it. JUST LET IT GO. NEVER SAY---- "They're going to have to look at that again" , make that banned speech, like how you can't say retard anymore.

YES- CENSOR what the announcers can talk about if they want PAID.


Yes that always has worked :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: YES! YES! YES!!!!! I LOVE YOU JON GRUDEN!!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:59 am 
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jebrick wrote:

Yes that always has worked :roll:

FIRE THEM if they go there. Why do they care that much? They fine coaches for criticizing officiating, don't let announcers do it either.


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 Post subject: Re: YES! YES! YES!!!!! I LOVE YOU JON GRUDEN!!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:34 pm 
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Nick, we need some form of replay. Get rid of the automatic reviews, keep coaches' challenges. They only get 3 per half or whatever and then only if they have time outs. They won't want to lose time outs, so they'll be very judicious about when they throw the red flag. Just like it was before automatic reviews. Even you, Nick, can handle that.


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 Post subject: Re: YES! YES! YES!!!!! I LOVE YOU JON GRUDEN!!!!!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:35 pm 
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Poltargyst wrote:
Nick, we need some form of replay. Get rid of the automatic reviews, keep coaches' challenges. They only get 3 per half or whatever and then only if they have time outs. They won't want to lose time outs, so they'll be very judicious about when they throw the red flag. Just like it was before automatic reviews. Even you, Nick, can handle that.


3 per half is too much. I realize that most people are anal and want to try for perfection, so replay isn't going away. I'd say best option is no automatic reviews, 1, maybe 2 per half and 60 second time limit for the review and no slow motion, review at normal speed within 60 seconds. With a clock visible to EVERYONE in the stadium and on TV.... BUZZER SOUNDS, refs walk away and either give a decision, or say they don't see obvious evidence to over turn within the mandated 60 seconds. This way, you could over turn the OBVIOUS errors, meaning things so fucking obvious it sticks out like a sore thumb, something like a railroad spike sticking out of a guys forehead, and really, that's what it should be about fixing. TOTALLY OBVIOUS AT FULL SPEED.


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 Post subject: Re: YES! YES! YES!!!!! I LOVE YOU JON GRUDEN!!!!!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:40 pm 
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Nick79 wrote:
Poltargyst wrote:
Nick, we need some form of replay. Get rid of the automatic reviews, keep coaches' challenges. They only get 3 per half or whatever and then only if they have time outs. They won't want to lose time outs, so they'll be very judicious about when they throw the red flag. Just like it was before automatic reviews. Even you, Nick, can handle that.


3 per half is too much. I realize that most people are anal and want to try for perfection, so replay isn't going away. I'd say best option is no automatic reviews, 1, maybe 2 per half and 60 second time limit for the review and no slow motion, review at normal speed within 60 seconds. With a clock visible to EVERYONE in the stadium and on TV.... BUZZER SOUNDS, refs walk away and either give a decision, or say they don't see obvious evidence to over turn within the mandated 60 seconds. This way, you could over turn the OBVIOUS errors, meaning things so fucking obvious it sticks out like a sore thumb, something like a railroad spike sticking out of a guys forehead, and really, that's what it should be about fixing. TOTALLY OBVIOUS AT FULL SPEED.

I could live with that.


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 Post subject: Re: YES! YES! YES!!!!! I LOVE YOU JON GRUDEN!!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:36 am 
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The thing that ruined replay was going TOO FAR, super slow motion, super zoom in, 50 million angles and giving them too much time to think about it. Then it goes beyond looking for "obvious errors" and it becomes like trying to analyze at the atomic level looking to see of protons or nuetrons from the ball are shaking pollen dust off of individual blades of turf, and that's what has ruined the entire sport.


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