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 Post subject: Re: Chiefs Kareem Hunt in trouble....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:57 pm 
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Havoc wrote:
I don't like seeing guys self destruct, throw away their talent.


Agree with that. And all because she wouldn't sleep WITH HIS FRIEND?!? That's some really fucked-up shit.

And he had someone trying to keep him from making that mistake. Now cut by the Chiefs and indefinitely suspended. Amazing.

But playing in the NFL is a privilege, and some guys don't deserve it. Without video footage, however, he and Ray Rice are still in the NFL.

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 Post subject: Re: Chiefs Kareem Hunt in trouble....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:55 pm 
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Joey's Pitbull wrote:
Not trying to be a shit starter but just a perspective I get from the younger guys at work who have daughters.
Maybe its just tough talk until you live in the moment but they claim that if their own daughter did what this girl did or what the girl did to Joe Nikon or the FSU kid who slapped a drunk girl in the bar...they claim that their daughter then deserved it,

Think about that for a second. I am 47 and have a 7 year old girl and I really cant share the same viewpoint.


Some will probably call this a racist comment. But there seems to be a fairly large contigent of the black community who feels if s woman shoves you or puts her hands on you then its game on and a punch in the face is warranted. Its something in the culture. I remember reading through the comments of an aquaintsnce and all his friends on the Ray Rice thing and shaking my head

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 Post subject: Re: Chiefs Kareem Hunt in trouble....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:15 pm 
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I wonder why he wasn't arrested and charged?

Police were apparently called to the hotel, but no charges were filed. Wouldn't police see that video, and then can't you prosecute him with the video even if no one presses charges?

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 Post subject: Re: Chiefs Kareem Hunt in trouble....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:09 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
Havoc wrote:
I don't like seeing guys self destruct, throw away their talent.


Agree with that. And all because she wouldn't sleep WITH HIS FRIEND?!? That's some really fucked-up shit.

And he had someone trying to keep him from making that mistake. Now cut by the Chiefs and indefinitely suspended. Amazing.

But playing in the NFL is a privilege, and some guys don't deserve it. Without video footage, however, he and Ray Rice are still in the NFL.


Hunt’s camp claims she used the N word. Not saying that justifies the reaction, but there is a reason certain words are called fighting rules.


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 Post subject: Re: Chiefs Kareem Hunt in trouble....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:39 pm 
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Zeke5123 wrote:
Hunt’s camp claims she used the N word. Not saying that justifies the reaction, but there is a reason certain words are called fighting rules.


I guess she must have said something to really set him off...but I'd bet she used that word after he called her several "fighting words" himself.

And the N word is not enough to hit someone, guy or girl. That's normally still assault and not self-defense.

Next out of Hunt's camp I expect to hear "he didn't really kick her that hard".

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 Post subject: Re: Chiefs Kareem Hunt in trouble....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:20 pm 
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Hmmmm. The n word is ALWAYS pulled out to justify the beating. Many times its bullshit.

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 Post subject: Re: Chiefs Kareem Hunt in trouble....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:17 pm 
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R S wrote:
Hmmmm. The n word is ALWAYS pulled out to justify the beating. Many times its bullshit.


I think it's entirely believable, probably after he called her every name in the book. But it's still assault, and pretty vicious at that. And whatever excuse he tries to claim, it's just digging a deeper hole because there's no justifying it.

What he's really saying with that is "she had it coming", which NEVER works for generating sympathy or getting reinstated. On top of that, Hunt said something about learning "just be in the right place at the right time". Ummm, how about learning it's never ok to strike a woman? He doesn't seem sorry or accountable for what happened, which is troubling.

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 Post subject: Re: Chiefs Kareem Hunt in trouble....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:27 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
R S wrote:
Hmmmm. The n word is ALWAYS pulled out to justify the beating. Many times its bullshit.


I think it's entirely believable, probably after he called her every name in the book. But it's still assault, and pretty vicious at that. And whatever excuse he tries to claim, it's just digging a deeper hole because there's no justifying it.

What he's really saying with that is "she had it coming", which NEVER works for generating sympathy or getting reinstated. On top of that, Hunt said something about learning "just be in the right place at the right time". Ummm, how about learning it's never ok to strike a woman? He doesn't seem sorry or accountable for what happened, which is troubling.

Totally agree that it is never ok to strike a woman.

It is also true that these athletes unnecessarily put themselves in positions where shit can easily happen.

Poor choices all the way around and they literally give away Millions of dollars.


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 Post subject: Re: Chiefs Kareem Hunt in trouble....
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:32 am 
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Steelafan77 wrote:
:shock:

Why would anyone say that wasn't as egregious as the Rice scenario? Because Hunt didn't knock the woman out? In an elevator? So slamming someone in to her both eating the door frame in the hallway wasn't as bad? In the end it won't matter. Why? Hunt had Plenty, P.L.E.N.T.Y. of Opportunity to walk away and chose not to. Now you pay the piper. Banned from NFL one year. Especially with the astronomic rise of the recent feminist empowerment/movement? Me Too etc... Dude could be done in the NFL. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the verdict. Even though she had just as much opportunity to walk away as well. In the end.., Be the Better Person Hunt. Walk Away! You've got so much more to lose. SMH

Totally agree - shocking and disgusting. What an animal.


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 Post subject: Re: Chiefs Kareem Hunt in trouble....
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:00 am 
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Here is another perspective.

Hunt is a young man, he is only 23. He has a lot more football in front of him. If he goes through his suspension and does the work to improve himself and no team signs him after that, then I think that is going to be a big problem for this union.

I am on record saying that I think the next CBA is going to be a massive fight. There will be a strike. These guys want baseball guarantees and considering how these blue chip guys get nothing from college through to their 2nd contract, combined with Goodell having his kind of legal power, some lawyer is going to whip these guys into a frenzy and they are going to dig in, no question in my mind it’s going to happen.

If these teams blackball Hunt and he is gone, add that to the heap. Going to be ugly fight.


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 Post subject: Re: Chiefs Kareem Hunt in trouble....
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:07 am 
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I fully agree 88. I also acknowledge that the odds are stacked against him. Just like the Rice scenario. The world feels a lot different about these DV's made public involving professional athletes. Especially the NFL. The NFL, IMHO is reactive to public opinion. Hunt could be a model citizen for the rest of his life but unfortunately this will never be lived down. Just like the Ben rape-lisberger nick name I still hear regarding Ben and his romeo escapades. Anyway, I hope Hunt is given a second chance as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Chiefs Kareem Hunt in trouble....
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:33 am 
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Suwanee88 wrote:
Steelafan77 wrote:
:shock:

Why would anyone say that wasn't as egregious as the Rice scenario? Because Hunt didn't knock the woman out? In an elevator? So slamming someone in to her both eating the door frame in the hallway wasn't as bad? In the end it won't matter. Why? Hunt had Plenty, P.L.E.N.T.Y. of Opportunity to walk away and chose not to. Now you pay the piper. Banned from NFL one year. Especially with the astronomic rise of the recent feminist empowerment/movement? Me Too etc... Dude could be done in the NFL. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the verdict. Even though she had just as much opportunity to walk away as well. In the end.., Be the Better Person Hunt. Walk Away! You've got so much more to lose. SMH

Totally agree - shocking and disgusting. What an animal.


I'm shocked that anyone think this was Rice or Mixon level. She was only contacted once with any force and it was because the guy trying to break it up got jacked and fell into her. The kick at the end (though disrespectful) had no force behind it and was more of a shove with his leg.

Tell me what I'm saying isn't true. Someone post the rice and Mixom vids.

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 Post subject: Re: Chiefs Kareem Hunt in trouble....
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:46 am 
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Sure, it’s not as bad.

But that’s like saying X pile of shit smells less worse than Y pile of shit.

Both acts (Rice and Hunt) are instances of the same species and differ only according to degree.

So, I don’t know that what Hunt did was as egregious, but he is equally blamable for being a Neanderthal moron who, while intoxicated, deemed it acceptable to physically bully a woman who had ZERO ability to stand up to it.

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 Post subject: Re: Chiefs Kareem Hunt in trouble....
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:06 am 
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My father was physically abusive to my mother on many occasions. It's a terrible thing as a child to see. I've never lifted a finger towards my wife. I think I can speak with authority on this subject.

What Kareem did was terrible. It merits punishment and suspension. But, there are mitigating factors here. He clearly was being baited. The woman was not cowering in fear. She gets up in his face to escalate the situation. This doesn't justify his reaction in any way shape or form, but it is a factor in ramping up the situation.

Kareem lost his cool, but my question is...is this a pattern? Is it his first time? Are there mitigating factors? Can he learn from this?

I think being released and potentially blackballed by the whole league is a punishment that is disproportionate to the crime. I abhor domestic violence because of what I saw as a kid, but there has to be a sense of proportionality about how we tackle these situations.

My fear is that we are prioritizing certain crimes as more severe and punishable than others and it is done to appease certain interest groups. That's not a good path for justice IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Chiefs Kareem Hunt in trouble....
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:51 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
Sure, it’s not as bad.

But that’s like saying X pile of shit smells less worse than Y pile of shit.

Both acts (Rice and Hunt) are instances of the same species and differ only according to degree.

So, I don’t know that what Hunt did was as egregious, but he is equally blamable for being a Neanderthal moron who, while intoxicated, deemed it acceptable to physically bully a woman who had ZERO ability to stand up to it.

Agree Lit.

But also believe if he does the work and dives into his issue and deals with himself, he should be given a chance to play ball again. I am a management guy, but I hate collusion and not giving people who work to come back another chance.


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 Post subject: Re: Chiefs Kareem Hunt in trouble....
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:58 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
Sure, it’s not as bad.

But that’s like saying X pile of shit smells less worse than Y pile of shit.

Both acts (Rice and Hunt) are instances of the same species and differ only according to degree.

So, I don’t know that what Hunt did was as egregious, but he is equally blamable for being a Neanderthal moron who, while intoxicated, deemed it acceptable to physically bully a woman who had ZERO ability to stand up to it.

Excellent post.

One thing I wonder about when I re-watch the video, what happens if those people weren’t there to hold him back?


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 Post subject: Re: Chiefs Kareem Hunt in trouble....
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:11 am 
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Suwanee88 wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Sure, it’s not as bad.

But that’s like saying X pile of shit smells less worse than Y pile of shit.

Both acts (Rice and Hunt) are instances of the same species and differ only according to degree.

So, I don’t know that what Hunt did was as egregious, but he is equally blamable for being a Neanderthal moron who, while intoxicated, deemed it acceptable to physically bully a woman who had ZERO ability to stand up to it.

Excellent post.

One thing I wonder about when I re-watch the video, what happens if those people weren’t there to hold him back?

My guess. The woman wouldnt have come at him like that.

I think hunt should be done for the season. I also think he should be in someones camp next year playing ball. Barring any other issues.

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 Post subject: Re: Chiefs Kareem Hunt in trouble....
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:25 pm 
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if Rueben Foster and Kareem Hunt return to football next year, Ray Rice should sue the NFL for lost wages in the order of $50 mil or so.

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 Post subject: Re: Chiefs Kareem Hunt in trouble....
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:35 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Sure, it’s not as bad.

But that’s like saying X pile of shit smells less worse than Y pile of shit.

Both acts (Rice and Hunt) are instances of the same species and differ only according to degree.

So, I don’t know that what Hunt did was as egregious, but he is equally blamable for being a Neanderthal moron who, while intoxicated, deemed it acceptable to physically bully a woman who had ZERO ability to stand up to it.


What a load of horse shit. You always go on about nuance and logical fallacies. Yet here, one response Ian pure as hominem and the next is an argument to ignore nuance. Degree always matters. Take murder for example. You could say both murder 1 and murder 2 are the same pile of shit but we make a clear delineation between them because we acknowledge differences in degree should reflect differences in punishment.

Care to make an argument that all murder should be punished the same? How about manslaughter?

If not, then explain why degree fails to matter here?

The WSJ ran a good article this week about how America’s drug is outrage. Outrage both feels good and is easy; it is easy to say fuck Hunt. Mob justice is both easy and always destructive. It’s a lot harder to think through the nuance and try to understand that (i) punishment should match the crime (including all related nuance) and (ii) that someones’s moral worth is not necessarily determined by their worst action.

Finally, you have an interesting point re the woman having no ability to stand up to Hunt. If I found myself around James Harrison and start telling him things like I fucked his woman / called him N words / etc., would you call him a POS if he beat me down even though realistically I’d have zero ability to defend myself? Is that really the standard you want to articulate? If it isn’t, then maybe try again?


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 Post subject: Re: Chiefs Kareem Hunt in trouble....
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:36 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
if Rueben Foster and Kareem Hunt return to football next year, Ray Rice should sue the NFL for lost wages in the order of $50 mil or so.


Rice sucked before the issues. He was on his way out of the NFL. If you are good, then teams put up with BS.


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 Post subject: Re: Chiefs Kareem Hunt in trouble....
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:08 pm 
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Zeke5123 wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Sure, it’s not as bad.

But that’s like saying X pile of shit smells less worse than Y pile of shit.

Both acts (Rice and Hunt) are instances of the same species and differ only according to degree.

So, I don’t know that what Hunt did was as egregious, but he is equally blamable for being a Neanderthal moron who, while intoxicated, deemed it acceptable to physically bully a woman who had ZERO ability to stand up to it.


What a load of horse shit. You always go on about nuance and logical fallacies. Yet here, one response Ian pure as hominem and the next is an argument to ignore nuance. Degree always matters. Take murder for example. You could say both murder 1 and murder 2 are the same pile of shit but we make a clear delineation between them because we acknowledge differences in degree should reflect differences in punishment.

Care to make an argument that all murder should be punished the same? How about manslaughter?

If not, then explain why degree fails to matter here?

The WSJ ran a good article this week about how America’s drug is outrage. Outrage both feels good and is easy; it is easy to say fuck Hunt. Mob justice is both easy and always destructive. It’s a lot harder to think through the nuance and try to understand that (i) punishment should match the crime (including all related nuance) and (ii) that someones’s moral worth is not necessarily determined by their worst action.

Finally, you have an interesting point re the woman having no ability to stand up to Hunt. If I found myself around James Harrison and start telling him things like I fucked his woman / called him N words / etc., would you call him a POS if he beat me down even though realistically I’d have zero ability to defend myself? Is that really the standard you want to articulate? If it isn’t, then maybe try again?


Not going to escalate this and I honestly am unsure why you have reacted so strongly.

Whether someone is morally blameworthy is a separate question from what sanction is merited in the case. You know this as well as I do. I said both are morally blameworthy for committing the same kind of act ("species").

I did not say Rice and Hunt were equally deserving of the same punishment. Clearly I allowed that the degree is different.

So, since my post was not about punishment deserved, your reaction seems to be against a claim I have not made.

I did not call Hunt or Rice pieces of shit. I was referring to the actions. I would call what they did pretty shitty. Unless you think there is no difference between judging acts and judging persons, but of course you do because you are utilitarian and you mention they are different above. However, actions do tend to follow character.

I guess you're annoyed because in response to your nuanced post about Joey's colleagues I said they, not you, sound like mouth breathers (ad hominem). I'd be pretty surprised to find out that Joey's colleagues would articulate anything like you did.

If you said those things to Harrison and he beat you to pulp, I'd say you both blameworthy and both stupid. But I have a rather stubborn position you probably reject: It is better to suffer injustice than to commit it and because someone is vulgar, disgusting troll does not make doing wrong right.

We good?

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 Post subject: Re: Chiefs Kareem Hunt in trouble....
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:16 pm 
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franco32 wrote:
My father was physically abusive to my mother on many occasions. It's a terrible thing as a child to see. I've never lifted a finger towards my wife. I think I can speak with authority on this subject.

What Kareem did was terrible. It merits punishment and suspension. But, there are mitigating factors here. He clearly was being baited. The woman was not cowering in fear. She gets up in his face to escalate the situation. This doesn't justify his reaction in any way shape or form, but it is a factor in ramping up the situation.

Kareem lost his cool, but my question is...is this a pattern? Is it his first time? Are there mitigating factors? Can he learn from this?

I think being released and potentially blackballed by the whole league is a punishment that is disproportionate to the crime. I abhor domestic violence because of what I saw as a kid, but there has to be a sense of proportionality about how we tackle these situations.

My fear is that we are prioritizing certain crimes as more severe and punishable than others and it is done to appease certain interest groups. That's not a good path for justice IMO.


Outstanding Post, Sir. Fully Agree.


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 Post subject: Re: Chiefs Kareem Hunt in trouble....
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:33 pm 
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Steelafan77 wrote:
franco32 wrote:
My father was physically abusive to my mother on many occasions. It's a terrible thing as a child to see. I've never lifted a finger towards my wife. I think I can speak with authority on this subject.

What Kareem did was terrible. It merits punishment and suspension. But, there are mitigating factors here. He clearly was being baited. The woman was not cowering in fear. She gets up in his face to escalate the situation. This doesn't justify his reaction in any way shape or form, but it is a factor in ramping up the situation.

Kareem lost his cool, but my question is...is this a pattern? Is it his first time? Are there mitigating factors? Can he learn from this?

I think being released and potentially blackballed by the whole league is a punishment that is disproportionate to the crime. I abhor domestic violence because of what I saw as a kid, but there has to be a sense of proportionality about how we tackle these situations.

My fear is that we are prioritizing certain crimes as more severe and punishable than others and it is done to appease certain interest groups. That's not a good path for justice IMO.


Outstanding Post, Sir. Fully Agree.


Excellent post and spot on.

Kudos to you sir for sharing that and for being the bigger man learning from your environment. Props to you.


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