It is currently Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:22 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 56 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: For anyone who owns a gun!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:20 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:55 pm
Posts: 5165
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/21/us/f ... s-law.html

Varies by state
And I realize we've taken this topic off kilter :lol:

_________________
#CdnSteelerFanStrong


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: For anyone who owns a gun!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:38 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:12 pm
Posts: 5086
One thing I do wish they would do a better job of incorporating is some sort of proof of competence.

Now they make you take a written firearms safety test but you would have to be a complete moron to not be able to pass.

I’m talking about something more robust. Something along the lines of an all-day course with qualified instructor where there is classroom and range time.

You need to be able to demonstrate you know how to PROPERLY handle a firearm.

Background check only shows you are not a criminal or have a criminal past. Does nothing to show competence.

I cringe almost every single time I’m on a range seeing some of the ways people mishandle their guns.

Such a class would cost $$ and might detour some of the very casual buyers.

Doesn’t solve all issues but it certainly doesn’t hurt and would make every gun owner and safer and more responsible gun owner.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: For anyone who owns a gun!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:13 pm
Posts: 2086
Donnie Brasco wrote:
I think my car ownership analogy is a fair one - do you disagree?
Yet people go every year and register their vehicles...realize there is grumbling about having to add another cost to car ownership, but it is what it is at this point.

So in my analogy, why do we bother having those car registration laws? I don't know if I've ever met someone who felt the government was going to confiscate all the automobiles in the US

Without going through the arguments on this thread - no, i do not agree. Quite simply, you're paying for the right to use state roadways. You can own a car without registering it or insuring it. You run into trouble when you operate it on a public street.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: For anyone who owns a gun!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:08 pm
Posts: 7473
Pabst wrote:
Donnie Brasco wrote:
I think my car ownership analogy is a fair one - do you disagree?
Yet people go every year and register their vehicles...realize there is grumbling about having to add another cost to car ownership, but it is what it is at this point.

So in my analogy, why do we bother having those car registration laws? I don't know if I've ever met someone who felt the government was going to confiscate all the automobiles in the US

Without going through the arguments on this thread - no, i do not agree. Quite simply, you're paying for the right to use state roadways. You can own a car without registering it or insuring it. You run into trouble when you operate it on a public street.
Using a car in public is a threat to public safety, yes? I can mow down a bunch of people on a side walk even if the car is registered. I can own a car, not register it, and keep it on my property, drive it around my backyard, but it is still a threat to public safety. Guns are a threat to public safety the same way a car is, whether you use it or not. If it were as simple as that, then why can't I purchase dangerous chemicals without a license and registration? Even if I use them on my property of a few acres?

_________________
"I wish Fraudlin would get testicular cancer and die after he watches me anally penetrate his wife."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: For anyone who owns a gun!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:13 pm
Posts: 2086
COR-TEN wrote:
Pabst wrote:
Donnie Brasco wrote:
I think my car ownership analogy is a fair one - do you disagree?
Yet people go every year and register their vehicles...realize there is grumbling about having to add another cost to car ownership, but it is what it is at this point.

So in my analogy, why do we bother having those car registration laws? I don't know if I've ever met someone who felt the government was going to confiscate all the automobiles in the US

Without going through the arguments on this thread - no, i do not agree. Quite simply, you're paying for the right to use state roadways. You can own a car without registering it or insuring it. You run into trouble when you operate it on a public street.
Using a car in public is a threat to public safety, yes? I can mow down a bunch of people on a side walk even if the car is registered. I can own a car, not register it, and keep it on my property, drive it around my backyard, but it is still a threat to public safety. Guns are a threat to public safety the same way a car is, whether you use it or not. If it were as simple as that, then why can't I purchase dangerous chemicals without a license and registration? Even if I use them on my property of a few acres?

Um...have you seen what you can buy at a hardware store? Or what's used to clean swimming pools?

You are literally saying that anything that can be used to hurt people is a threat to public safety. That's nonsensical.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: For anyone who owns a gun!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:08 pm
Posts: 7473
Pabst wrote:
Um...have you seen what you can buy at a hardware store? Or what's used to clean swimming pools?

You are literally saying that anything that can be used to hurt people is a threat to public safety. That's nonsensical.
What's nonsensical is not being able to see the difference between chlorine, a hammer, or rope, and a semi auto weapon designed to kill. No. They are not the same.

_________________
"I wish Fraudlin would get testicular cancer and die after he watches me anally penetrate his wife."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: For anyone who owns a gun!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:13 pm
Posts: 2086
COR-TEN wrote:
Pabst wrote:
Um...have you seen what you can buy at a hardware store? Or what's used to clean swimming pools?

You are literally saying that anything that can be used to hurt people is a threat to public safety. That's nonsensical.
What's nonsensical is not being able to see the difference between chlorine, a hammer, or rope, and a semi auto weapon designed to kill. No. They are not the same.

Nice example of a Motte & Bailey. That's a different argument from what I was just responding to

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: For anyone who owns a gun!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:10 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:57 pm
Posts: 3558
Pabst wrote:
Donnie Brasco wrote:
I think my car ownership analogy is a fair one - do you disagree?
Yet people go every year and register their vehicles...realize there is grumbling about having to add another cost to car ownership, but it is what it is at this point.

So in my analogy, why do we bother having those car registration laws? I don't know if I've ever met someone who felt the government was going to confiscate all the automobiles in the US

Without going through the arguments on this thread - no, i do not agree. Quite simply, you're paying for the right to use state roadways. You can own a car without registering it or insuring it. You run into trouble when you operate it on a public street.


While this is correct on many levels, use of a car is not written into the founding document of our country. It is a right given to you by the States. And is a poor comparison.

_________________
"Rational arguments don't usually work on religious people. Otherwise, there wouldn't be religious people."
--Doris Egan


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: For anyone who owns a gun!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:14 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:55 pm
Posts: 5165
jebrick wrote:
Pabst wrote:
Donnie Brasco wrote:
I think my car ownership analogy is a fair one - do you disagree?
Yet people go every year and register their vehicles...realize there is grumbling about having to add another cost to car ownership, but it is what it is at this point.

So in my analogy, why do we bother having those car registration laws? I don't know if I've ever met someone who felt the government was going to confiscate all the automobiles in the US

Without going through the arguments on this thread - no, i do not agree. Quite simply, you're paying for the right to use state roadways. You can own a car without registering it or insuring it. You run into trouble when you operate it on a public street.


While this is correct on many levels, use of a car is not written into the founding document of our country. It is a right given to you by the States. And is a poor comparison.


Part of the reason it was written into the founding document was due to the fact that having a gun at that time was extremely important/useful. People hunted with it and if you took that tool away, you could have threatened their ability to eat.

Guns were more of a tool back then, just like cars are tools for our livelihood today.

_________________
#CdnSteelerFanStrong


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: For anyone who owns a gun!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:25 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:57 pm
Posts: 3558
Donnie Brasco wrote:
jebrick wrote:

Part of the reason it was written into the founding document was due to the fact that having a gun at that time was extremely important/useful. People hunted with it and if you took that tool away, you could have threatened their ability to eat.


Guns were more of a tool back then, just like cars are tools for our livelihood today.


It was written into the Constitution to allow people to rise up against repressive governments. Remember that it was written by revolutionaries who over threw what they considered a repressive government. You could also say it was written in so that the government would have militias trained to supplement the army. Both are correct. I would think the founding fathers did not like large standing armies. Those are a more recent addition to the US following WW2. Eisenhower warned against the industrial military complex and it is showing to be true today.

_________________
"Rational arguments don't usually work on religious people. Otherwise, there wouldn't be religious people."
--Doris Egan


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: For anyone who owns a gun!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:14 pm
Posts: 1413
jebrick wrote:
Pabst wrote:
Donnie Brasco wrote:
I think my car ownership analogy is a fair one - do you disagree?
Yet people go every year and register their vehicles...realize there is grumbling about having to add another cost to car ownership, but it is what it is at this point.

So in my analogy, why do we bother having those car registration laws? I don't know if I've ever met someone who felt the government was going to confiscate all the automobiles in the US

Without going through the arguments on this thread - no, i do not agree. Quite simply, you're paying for the right to use state roadways. You can own a car without registering it or insuring it. You run into trouble when you operate it on a public street.


While this is correct on many levels, use of a car is not written into the founding document of our country. It is a right given to you by the States. And is a poor comparison.


Use of anything isn’t specifically written into the Constitution. What is written in the founding documents are property rights protections and automobiles are considered property. As Pabst pointed out one could own a vehicle and even use it on their own property without the need for registration provided they aren’t operating it on public roadways.

_________________
Neal Huntington on what he's been told by his bosses about $$$: "We've got assurances we're going to be able to continue to do what we've done."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: For anyone who owns a gun!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:55 pm
Posts: 5165
Quote:
Use of anything isn’t specifically written into the Constitution. What is written in the founding documents are property rights protections and automobiles are considered property. As Pabst pointed out one could own a vehicle and even use it on their own property without the need for registration provided they aren’t operating it on public roadways.


So why can't I burn tires or toxic chemicals on MY property then? Why can't I operate a factory on my property even if it's zone residential?

Because the government has a vested interest in protecting your neighbors. So vetting that you properly own and legitimately posses a firearm seems like a reasonable assessment. You could think of it like a census- we count/measure a ton of stuff in this country: people, cars, cash, etc. Why not guns?

Again I'll make the statement that I am typically anti-government. I do not want the government involved in my healthcare or my retirement or even shipping me a letter. But there is a gun issue in this country...like it or lump it and there can't be the continued shoulder shrugging that goes on when a nut job gets a hold of a gun and murders people/kids/worshipers

_________________
#CdnSteelerFanStrong


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: For anyone who owns a gun!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:51 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:19 am
Posts: 11102
jebrick wrote:
Pabst wrote:
Donnie Brasco wrote:
I think my car ownership analogy is a fair one - do you disagree?
Yet people go every year and register their vehicles...realize there is grumbling about having to add another cost to car ownership, but it is what it is at this point.

So in my analogy, why do we bother having those car registration laws? I don't know if I've ever met someone who felt the government was going to confiscate all the automobiles in the US

Without going through the arguments on this thread - no, i do not agree. Quite simply, you're paying for the right to use state roadways. You can own a car without registering it or insuring it. You run into trouble when you operate it on a public street.


While this is correct on many levels, use of a car is not written into the founding document of our country. It is a right given to you by the States. And is a poor comparison.


Why is a right granted you by states different in kind from a right written into the Constitution? Other than the cult of veneration that Madison smartly built around the constitution, our rights are grounded in the principle of reprsentative government. If we agree to alter, expand, or curtail a right, then that is the legitimacy. Most do not know this but Jefferson thought that it was ridiculous to venerate a document and would have preferred an overhaul every 15 to 20 years or so. He believed too much in human reason for his own good!

The Constitution does not spell out natural rights.

_________________
#CdnSteelerFanStrong
Orangesteel wrote:
We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: For anyone who owns a gun!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:40 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:14 pm
Posts: 1413
It is a little scary how some of you view the constitution/government. The constitution wasn’t created to grant people rights. The government has no authority to grant us what we already have. The constitution was created to define the scope of powers that the people were delegating to the government. The US Government has no authority to grant us rights. We do allow government to take away or limit our rights for the good of society.

_________________
Neal Huntington on what he's been told by his bosses about $$$: "We've got assurances we're going to be able to continue to do what we've done."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: For anyone who owns a gun!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:19 am
Posts: 11102
SteelPro wrote:
It is a little scary how some of you view the constitution/government. The constitution wasn’t created to grant people rights. The government has no authority to grant us what we already have. The constitution was created to define the scope of powers that the people were delegating to the government. The US Government has no authority to grant us rights. We do allow government to take away or limit our rights for the good of society.


Where do you think your right to free speech comes from? God? Do you have a coherent account of what a right is? Political rights are contractual. I never said the government grants us rights. I said the rights we have owe their legitimacy to political principles of representation. The government exists to guarantee the rights which representatives of the people AGREED we ought have and which were RATIFIED by the states. The rights we have were established. They are not metaphysical principles.

_________________
#CdnSteelerFanStrong
Orangesteel wrote:
We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: For anyone who owns a gun!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:34 am
Posts: 5893
This bill proposed in PA is an AOC type move like the Green New Deal. You propose something so absurd and out there, that it gets a ton of press and get's people talking. Then down the road you propose something less absurd (but still absurd) and it sounds a little more reasonable. Rinse and repeat until you hit that sweet spot. I don't know if there is a name for this strategy but it's obvious.

I own 4 guns. 1 deer rifle 2 shotguns 1 .22 rifle so I pay $40/ year to have 4 hunting rifles sitting in a cabinet and taken into the woods a few times a year. This is actually an attack on people in poverty as much as anything. A family of 6 rednecks in the middle of the Ozarks who have 10-12 hunting rifles used to supplement their grocery bills are now getting pinched for a couple hundred bucks every year.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: For anyone who owns a gun!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:26 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:13 pm
Posts: 2086
The entire point of the Constitution is to say that government does not grant rights to people, and therefore no government has the right to take them away. Natural Rights are the entire goddamn point. WTF am I reading here?

If you want to argue that technology has made guns so dangerous that we need to amend the Constitution, then fine - argue for that. But to say, in a section of the Constitution specifically devoted to individual rights, that the founders included a provision that the military needed to arm itself is fucking stupid.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: For anyone who owns a gun!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:22 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:19 am
Posts: 11102
Pabst wrote:
The entire point of the Constitution is to say that government does not grant rights to people, and therefore no government has the right to take
Quote:
them away. Natural Rights are the entire goddamn point. WTF am I reading here?

If you want to argue that technology has made guns so dangerous that we need to amend the Constitution, then fine - argue for that. But to say, in a section of the Constitution specifically devoted to individual rights, that the founders included a provision that the military needed to arm itself is fucking stupid.


I know well that we are told that the Constitution does not "grant rights," but this is clearly horsehit. In the Declaration are articulated "natural" and "unalienable" rights.

However, in the Constitution, there is never a mention of natural or unalienable rights. Not one mention. There is a Bill of Rights and it can be amended. The Bill of Rights had to be ratified by the States. They did not have to ratify them. If they were not ratified, would the government be obligated to protect me in my possession of them?

Recently, the Constitutionally challenged Justice John Paul Stevens wrote an op-ed in the NYT advocating the repeal of the second amendment!
You cannot repeal a natural or unalienable right.

The "gubmit" cannot take these rights away willy nilly, but there is a process put in place to alter, expand or curtail the rights listed in the Constitution.

Quote:
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.


Pabst, what do I not understand correctly? Seems like there is clear legal process for amending the Constitution, including the Bill of Rights. If the rights in the Bill are natural and not "granted" by the constitution, why was amending written into the document?

_________________
#CdnSteelerFanStrong
Orangesteel wrote:
We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: For anyone who owns a gun!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:13 pm
Posts: 2086
Still Lit wrote:
Pabst wrote:
The entire point of the Constitution is to say that government does not grant rights to people, and therefore no government has the right to take
Quote:
them away. Natural Rights are the entire goddamn point. WTF am I reading here?

If you want to argue that technology has made guns so dangerous that we need to amend the Constitution, then fine - argue for that. But to say, in a section of the Constitution specifically devoted to individual rights, that the founders included a provision that the military needed to arm itself is fucking stupid.


I know well that we are told that the Constitution does not "grant rights," but this is clearly horsehit. In the Declaration are articulated "natural" and "unalienable" rights.

However, in the Constitution, there is never a mention of natural or unalienable rights. Not one mention. There is a Bill of Rights and it can be amended. The Bill of Rights had to be ratified by the States. They did not have to ratify them. If they were not ratified, would the government be obligated to protect me in my possession of them?

Recently, the Constitutionally challenged Justice John Paul Stevens wrote an op-ed in the NYT advocating the repeal of the second amendment!
You cannot repeal a natural or unalienable right.

The "gubmit" cannot take these rights away willy nilly, but there is a process put in place to alter, expand or curtail the rights listed in the Constitution.

Quote:
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.


Pabst, what do I not understand correctly? Seems like there is clear legal process for amending the Constitution, including the Bill of Rights. If the rights in the Bill are natural and not "granted" by the constitution, why was amending written into the document?

The constitution says "Congress shall make no law abridging the right to free speech". It does not say "Congress grants the right to free speech". The implication is that we already have the right. I.e. it's a natural right.

And yes, they also realized that changes could be needed in the future, so they included an amendment process. That doesn't change anything regarding natural rights - the implication there is that the burden lies with the Government to justify taking those rights away; not a person's right to keep it.

I will agree that John Paul Stevens is constitutionally challenged, yes.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: For anyone who owns a gun!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:19 am
Posts: 11102
So why are we able to amend the Bill of Rights?

Edit: my kid is jumping off furniture so have to be quick. My point is that amendments concerning these things is not compatible with a doctrine of natural right. It's easily Argued free speech is not a natural right. Hobbes for instance would deny it. Can’t remember what Locke does at the moment. Shit! Gotta run! Will read your response later.

_________________
#CdnSteelerFanStrong
Orangesteel wrote:
We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


Last edited by Still Lit on Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: For anyone who owns a gun!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:13 pm
Posts: 2086
Still Lit wrote:
So why are we able to amend the Bill of Rights?

Rights are natural. What the Constitution does is place limitations on the government from infringing upon those rights.

The Constitution restricts what the government can do. It's not about granting rights to people. When you amend the constitution, you are granting government the authority to infringe upon your rights.

That help?

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: For anyone who owns a gun!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:14 pm
Posts: 1413
If we are really going to start dissecting the Constitution and its purpose it is best to start with the first words...

Quote:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


I highlighted the words most relevant to this discussion. My point stands that the Constitution is more about the rights we give to government, not the other way around. This government was formed to secure and protect those rights that our forefathers believed we were already entitled to. Even though these weren't specifically labeled "Natural Rights" or "Inalienable Rights" in the founding document, I am 100% certain secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves meant our natural rights.

_________________
Neal Huntington on what he's been told by his bosses about $$$: "We've got assurances we're going to be able to continue to do what we've done."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: For anyone who owns a gun!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:17 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:19 am
Posts: 11102
Pabst wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
So why are we able to amend the Bill of Rights?

Rights are natural. What the Constitution does is place limitations on the government from infringing upon those rights.

The Constitution restricts what the government can do. It's not about granting rights to people. When you amend the constitution, you are granting government the authority to infringe upon your rights.

That help?


You’re wrong that all rights are natural if that’s what you’re pushing.

_________________
#CdnSteelerFanStrong
Orangesteel wrote:
We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: For anyone who owns a gun!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:13 pm
Posts: 2086
Still Lit wrote:
Pabst wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
So why are we able to amend the Bill of Rights?

Rights are natural. What the Constitution does is place limitations on the government from infringing upon those rights.

The Constitution restricts what the government can do. It's not about granting rights to people. When you amend the constitution, you are granting government the authority to infringe upon your rights.

That help?


You’re wrong that all rights are natural if that’s what you’re pushing.

So stick to what's listed in the Bill of Rights and tell me where you disagree

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: For anyone who owns a gun!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:19 am
Posts: 11102
Negative language (congress shall pass no law limiting X or Y) is no proof that a right is natural. There is no universal consensus in the history of philosophy that there even is such a thing as natural right. The ancients (no dummies in politics) did not even have a concept of rights. Some political philosophers deny there is such a thing as natural right.

It is unclear what a right even is.

One view of natural right is that which cannot be taken from you because you possess it by virtue of your nature. This is Hobbes’ view. So, you have no natural right to life bc this can be taken from you. No natural right to property bc this can be taken from you. You do have a natural right, however, to self defense bc by nature you will attempt to preserve your life.

Locke has a less restrictive view of natural right. It includes (surprise!) life, liberty and property. But property is is an extension of self by virtue of labor put into something.

In any case, my position is not about what is said in the Bill of Rights but the grounding of right. And there’s nothing obvious about the grounding of rights.

The reason I said that the government establishes our rights is bc from a practical standpoint the government is what guarantees that your rights will be observed. And without that guarantee, we might as well not have rights. They become meaningless.

But if you want to define right and put forward a theory of natural right, I’ll have that convo.

_________________
#CdnSteelerFanStrong
Orangesteel wrote:
We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 56 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
FORUM RULES --- PRIVACY POLICY




Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group