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 Post subject: Re: Jussie Smollett Charged with False Report
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:26 pm 
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KC wrote:
Once Trump learns how huge the Aryan Brotherhood population is in prison, he'll be all for inmates voting.

Numbers-wise, they're actually fairly small. Influence is primarily due to extreme violence and key alliances (particularly with the Mexican Mafia). I watch alot of Gangland.

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 Post subject: Re: Jussie Smollett Charged with False Report
PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:13 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
So what the fuck is socialism if it is not regulation per se?

Then we can see whether all liberal policy tends toward socialism.

Not trying to be a dick. I hope that’s clear.


Regulation and taxes are mostly the opposite of free markets, agreed?

Now, despite being a card-carrying Libertarian, I will not denigrate ALL regulation and taxes. However, more often than not, it's not a public good much less effective and efficient. If there was a fundamental case for what we call liberalism today, they wouldn't rely almost purely on emotional appeal. Why all these arguments have to completely trample state rights is absolutely beyond me.

I'm merely pointing out that an 18th century definition of socialism doesn't mean tax & spend and spend & tax some more policies aren't socialism. In many respects, regulations and taxes are much more efficient than actually running the company.

I favor regulation and taxes that INCREASE transparency and information. In our modern world, that's generally not the case. The former adds value, as predicted by theory (which assumes perfect information). But when I see someone like Beto or AOC proposing TRILLIONS to combat climate change, I see zealots looking to enrich themselves and their supporters.

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 Post subject: Re: Jussie Smollett Charged with False Report
PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:26 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
I realize all this, but I was called an Ivory Tower dumb fuck for saying it. What you have expressed was what I was told was a distinction without a difference and an "intellectually bankrupt argument." (Nevermind that it is a claim, not an argument.)


The problem is, once you introduce progressiveness into a social insurance program, then it is no longer social insurance but socialism. You're convoluting the argument to claim SS/Medicare are the same as govt takeovers of health insurance and energy. The end results may not be that different, out of necessity, but it's pseudo intellectualism to pretend the fundamentals of the programs are the same.

And when it's no longer self-funded because of gross miscalculation (medicare) or abusive misappropriation (social security), then what you are left with is an unfunded promise that can only be made whole by a redistribution of wealth. It may seem trivial when the govt simply prints money to fund its promises, but that is implicitly a tax on EVERYONE, without respect to what you have contributed.

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 Post subject: Re: Jussie Smollett Charged with False Report
PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:12 am 
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Kodiak wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
I realize all this, but I was called an Ivory Tower dumb fuck for saying it. What you have expressed was what I was told was a distinction without a difference and an "intellectually bankrupt argument." (Nevermind that it is a claim, not an argument.)


The problem is, once you introduce progressiveness into a social insurance program, then it is no longer social insurance but socialism. You're convoluting the argument to claim SS/Medicare are the same as govt takeovers of health insurance and energy. The end results may not be that different, out of necessity, but it's pseudo intellectualism to pretend the fundamentals of the programs are the same.

And when it's no longer self-funded because of gross miscalculation (medicare) or abusive misappropriation (social security), then what you are left with is an unfunded promise that can only be made whole by a redistribution of wealth. It may seem trivial when the govt simply prints money to fund its promises, but that is implicitly a tax on EVERYONE, without respect to what you have contributed.


i think you need to separate SS from Medicare in your argument. SS is a welfare program there is literately no way of socializing it. Yes, you can mismanage it and run out of money but because there is no production you can't control it. You do not need a redistribution of wealth to help SS. Just change the spending. Less going out and more coming in ( via already budgeted items not taxes).

Heathcare can be socialized as in controlling the production/payment. The arguments for and against revolve around costs of Heathcare. It is an interesting dilemma for most Conservatives in that they want no government control of any aspect of business but want to control the price of healthcare. The Paul Ryan conservative want to adjust the spending while letting the business charge whatever they want. This is approaching a failure point mainly do to the cost keep going up. To stay true to their stated beliefs, the Ryan Conservatives have to cover less people.

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 Post subject: Re: Jussie Smollett Charged with False Report
PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:53 am 
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Kodiak wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
So what the fuck is socialism if it is not regulation per se?

Then we can see whether all liberal policy tends toward socialism.

Not trying to be a dick. I hope that’s clear.


Regulation and taxes are mostly the opposite of free markets, agreed?

Now, despite being a card-carrying Libertarian, I will not denigrate ALL regulation and taxes. However, more often than not, it's not a public good much less effective and efficient. If there was a fundamental case for what we call liberalism today, they wouldn't rely almost purely on emotional appeal. Why all these arguments have to completely trample state rights is absolutely beyond me.

I'm merely pointing out that an 18th century definition of socialism doesn't mean tax & spend and spend & tax some more policies aren't socialism. In many respects, regulations and taxes are much more efficient than actually running the company.

I favor regulation and taxes that INCREASE transparency and information. In our modern world, that's generally not the case. The former adds value, as predicted by theory (which assumes perfect information). But when I see someone like Beto or AOC proposing TRILLIONS to combat climate change, I see zealots looking to enrich themselves and their supporters.


Regulation is the opposite of a free market by definition, of course.

However, none of what you posted explains why regulation = socialism.

Are you claiming that any and all economic regulation is socialism or only certain kinds?

My beef with you has not been an evaluation of the merits of regulation, but what socialism is.

You say that Marx's definition is outdated on the grounds that there are other ways to control business other than by owning the means of production. Fair enough, I do not deny it.

My question is: why are you calling any regulation a form of socialism? Are there only two economic models, free capitalism or socialism? I'm confused about why any and all regulation is socialism just because it is regulation. That seems absurd. But this may not be what you are claiming.

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