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 Post subject: Re: Jussie Smollett Charged with False Report
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:53 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
Ownership of the means of production is not the same thing as social insurance programs funded by tax dollars. Those things are completely different..


LMAO.....Thank you for delineating a "distinction without a difference". I already explained "ownership of production" is a dated and ignorant definition of socialism.

And it's not just about "social insurance". Regressives want to take over healthcare and energy - that's like 30% of the economy. Not to mention the control over the rest exerted with taxes and regulation.

So controlling like 30%+ of the economy isn't socialism to you? OK, I disagree.

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 Post subject: Re: Jussie Smollett Charged with False Report
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:56 am 
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SteelPro wrote:
a tangible benefit and would instead rather spend that money on a more expensive car, house, tv, travel, etc...
And thus you are making the argument that these freebies are actually good for the economy. Expansionary policy and Keynesian theory 101.



No....Only economically ignorant morons jerk off to Keynes

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 Post subject: Re: Jussie Smollett Charged with False Report
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:59 am 
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COR-TEN wrote:
Most people don't really know what states' rights even means or how it is applied.


Fascinating. How do you feel about the electoral college?

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 Post subject: Re: Jussie Smollett Charged with False Report
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:44 am 
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Kodiak wrote:
SteelPro wrote:
a tangible benefit and would instead rather spend that money on a more expensive car, house, tv, travel, etc...
And thus you are making the argument that these freebies are actually good for the economy. Expansionary policy and Keynesian theory 101.



No....Only economically ignorant morons jerk off to Keynes


You’re the one that argued giving people free college and free health insurance would stimulate economic activity. I guess that makes you a Keynesian moron covered in jizz from jerking off to him.

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 Post subject: Re: Jussie Smollett Charged with False Report
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:12 am 
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Kodiak wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Ownership of the means of production is not the same thing as social insurance programs funded by tax dollars. Those things are completely different..


LMAO.....Thank you for delineating a "distinction without a difference". I already explained "ownership of production" is a dated and ignorant definition of socialism.

And it's not just about "social insurance". Regressives want to take over healthcare and energy - that's like 30% of the economy. Not to mention the control over the rest exerted with taxes and regulation.

So controlling like 50% of the economy isn't socialism to you? OK, I disagree.


Laugh all you want. You can use words however you want. The welfare state as currently exercised in this country has nothing to do with the government owning the means of production. Which is exactly what socialism is.

You claim the actual definition of socialism is dated and ignorant....and promptly give no proof.

I disagree that welfare and socialism are the same because they are demonstrably different: one involves the ownership of production and one does not. Since this distinction is obvious, you're just being obstinate.

Did you get an MA in econ or eristic?

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 Post subject: Re: Jussie Smollett Charged with False Report
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:28 am 
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SteelPro wrote:
You’re the one that argued giving people free college and free health insurance would stimulate economic activity. I guess that makes you a Keynesian moron covered in jizz from jerking off to him.


What?!? No. Holy shit. What moronic moon did you swallow?!? Show me where I said what you claim.

Or, instead, go back into your hole because you're an abject idiot.


Somewhere George Carlin is laughing his ass off.

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 Post subject: Re: Jussie Smollett Charged with False Report
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:31 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
Laugh all you want. You can use words however you want.


Yes. I will laugh. Argue about the technical definition of socialism instead of the practical one. I expect that from the ivory tower completely disconnected from the real world.

I don't "use words". I use reality. Some day you might step outside the faux academia and see how people actually live. But I suspect not.

You're anchoring to a text-book definition of socialism completely ignorant of how socialism works in the modern world. But, sure, throw stones at me because you're a dipshit.

For the record, I understand how YOU might take "socialism" literally.....but if you had studied economics then you might understand the practicalities of said free shit.

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 Post subject: Re: Jussie Smollett Charged with False Report
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:34 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
You claim the actual definition of socialism is dated and ignorant....and promptly give no proof


And that's an intellectually bankrupt argument, professor.

But I think you already knew that.

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 Post subject: Re: Jussie Smollett Charged with False Report
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:06 am 
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Kodiak wrote:
SteelPro wrote:
You’re the one that argued giving people free college and free health insurance would stimulate economic activity. I guess that makes you a Keynesian moron covered in jizz from jerking off to him.


What?!? No. Holy shit. What moronic moon did you swallow?!? Show me where I said what you claim.

Or, instead, go back into your hole because you're an abject idiot.


Somewhere George Carlin is laughing his ass off.

I bolded your comments once already. Now please proceed with walking back all your comments and calling people morons.

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 Post subject: Re: Jussie Smollett Charged with False Report
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:19 am 
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Kodiak, why do you insist on being deliberately stupid?

Just admit you’re full of shit and move on.

Please, by all means point out why what I posted is “bankrupt.” (By the way, you quoted a claim, not an argument. I wonder you know the difference or do I hold an outdated notion of argument too.). Apparently your strategy here is to insist words mean whatever you want them to and call people ignorant who don’t adhere to your private semantic plasticity.

But the better thing for me to point out is to sidestep your silly name calling and point out that you failed to say why welfare is the same as ownership of production. Instead you just said: waaah, wah, I studied Econ and you did not.

We live in a capitalist economy that uses tax dollars to fund social insurance programs.

And that makes Chicago a socialist city.

Ok.

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 Post subject: Re: Jussie Smollett Charged with False Report
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:43 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
Kodiak, why do you insist on being deliberately stupid?


Good lord, and people pay you for a college degree.

You're intellectually bankrupt. You are. I've proven it in this very thread. You're using a very dated defintion of socialism, which strikes me as odd for a college professor whom one would expect to be on the evolutionary edge of education.

You're problem is you've spent your entire life in the ivory tower and you don't understand real world realities. I'll say it again - I don't have to sit on your Board to control your company when I can do it thru taxes, regulations, etc...You are completely clueless to what I'm talking about because you've never worked in the real world. You're entire position is based on bad theory with no actual lab experience.

You do realize that the US has been declining on measures of capitalism? Behind even some of the socialist meccas you covet (once you get past a 100% tax increase on most people).....Yet somehow these countries rank higher in economic freedom than the US. What you're struggling to understand is the difference between social services and socialism......Dems are wanting to take control of healthcare and energy, which is @ 30% of the economy. You don't think that's socialism....anyone with a brain would disagree.

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 Post subject: Re: Jussie Smollett Charged with False Report
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:46 am 
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SteelPro wrote:
I bolded your comments once already. Now please proceed with walking back all your comments and calling people morons.


I literally never said that. You are just such an idiot that you imagined I said it. Wow.

Bold them again because the point flew over your head. Which, by the way, is an EXCELLENT argument against free college education.

You won't do that, because what you "bolded" was complete mental diarrhea that only accentuates your ignorance. I mean, it really didn't even have anything to do with the point I was making....just a triggered retard reflex. But I'm talking to to a gerbil here - you didn't understand what I was saying, and you had no clue what you meant in response.


I NEVER said that all that "free shit" would stimulate the economy. You're a liar and/or an idiot.


There you go. I bolded it for you.

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 Post subject: Re: Jussie Smollett Charged with False Report
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:17 am 
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As with most arguments, people are looking at the "pure" form of something rather than the mixture that everyone has. By all definitions that I can find, Socialism is social ownership of the production (plus worker rights stuff). Capitalism is the exact opposite. Both are pretty bad in their pure forms.

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 Post subject: Re: Jussie Smollett Charged with False Report
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:32 am 
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Kodiak wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Kodiak, why do you insist on being deliberately stupid?


Good lord, and people pay you for a college degree.

You're intellectually bankrupt. You are. I've proven it in this very thread. You're using a very dated defintion of socialism, which strikes me as odd for a college professor whom one would expect to be on the evolutionary edge of education.

You're problem is you've spent your entire life in the ivory tower and you don't understand real world realities. I'll say it again - I don't have to sit on your Board to control your company when I can do it thru taxes, regulations, etc...You are completely clueless to what I'm talking about because you've never worked in the real world. You're entire position is based on bad theory with no actual lab experience.

You do realize that the US has been declining on measures of capitalism? Behind even some of the socialist meccas you covet (once you get past a 100% tax increase on most people).....Yet somehow these countries rank higher in economic freedom than the US. What you're struggling to understand is the difference between social services and socialism......Dems are wanting to take control of healthcare and energy, which is @ 30% of the economy. You don't think that's socialism....anyone with a brain would disagree.


Several things:
1. "I don't have to sit on your Board to control your company when I can do it thru taxes, regulations, etc..." Right, I can grant this and still say that the government does not own industry and so therefore, it's not a socialist economy.

Now, maybe you want to call it a mixed regime. What we do not disagree on is that industry can be controlled through regulation and taxes. Certainly. But why does that deserve the title of socialism? If your definition of socialism is government oversight of the economy, that is a rather broad definition that fits nearly any regime, yes?

2. I have no idea what you're talking about not because I have no real world experience, but because you have mostly thrown insults rather than give a full throated explanation and defense of your views.

3. You have no idea what I covet. I never took a position. What I did was call you deliberately obtuse for trying to say that social insurance programs (these are liberal things, yes?) are the same thing as socialism.

4. I am the one who first pointed out the difference between social services and socialism, not you.

5. You just said NOT that 30% of the economy IS controlled by the government, but that Dems (actually it is a tiny minority of Dems, but don't let that get in the way of your position), but that Dems would LIKE to do this. Yes, that would be rather socialist. Except I never said that THAT would not be. I only claimed that social insurance programs and welfare programs supported by tax dollars from private, capitalist enterprise was not socialism. And for that I was ignorant, dumb, etc.

6. And you never gave any coherent explanation for why Chicago is a "socialist city."

Are you going to keep calling me a dumb ass or actually have a discussion? I mean, I don't care what you call me, but it seems silly.

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 Post subject: Re: Jussie Smollett Charged with False Report
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:34 am 
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jebrick wrote:
As with most arguments, people are looking at the "pure" form of something rather than the mixture that everyone has. By all definitions that I can find, Socialism is social ownership of the production (plus worker rights stuff). Capitalism is the exact opposite. Both are pretty bad in their pure forms.


I totally agree. My complaint was that it seems that social insurance programs (liberal things) were being conflated with government ownership of industry.

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 Post subject: Re: Jussie Smollett Charged with False Report
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:44 pm 
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Regulation is needed to curb the often bad effects that a pure capitalistic society can have. Social security has grown from what it was meant to be to something different. Medicare/Medicaid are different animals.

I am quite willing to debate the current healthcare issues as it pertains to the Government and the companies.

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 Post subject: Re: Jussie Smollett Charged with False Report
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:48 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
jebrick wrote:
As with most arguments, people are looking at the "pure" form of something rather than the mixture that everyone has. By all definitions that I can find, Socialism is social ownership of the production (plus worker rights stuff). Capitalism is the exact opposite. Both are pretty bad in their pure forms.


My complaint was that it seems that social insurance programs (liberal things) were being conflated with government ownership of industry.


SS is just a safety net that grew out of the depression. Since the Government does not control retirement savings I would say that one is safe.

Medicaid/Medicare definitely does not control the industry or there would be a different debate.

Military industrial complex gets closer to control than most other but still is arguably not.

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 Post subject: Re: Jussie Smollett Charged with False Report
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:00 pm 
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jebrick wrote:
As with most arguments, people are looking at the "pure" form of something rather than the mixture that everyone has. By all definitions that I can find, Socialism is social ownership of the production (plus worker rights stuff). Capitalism is the exact opposite. Both are pretty bad in their pure forms.
Yeah, but that argument can't be manipulated and used as a political tool. Like labeling anything the government does is "socialism."

This isn't about semantics, or word definition, reality, or history. It's about demonizing the opposition and winning at all costs. There is no such thing as compromise. Some people just got wrapped up in the battle and lost their minds. Then others followed, and this country is headed down the toilet because of it.

And I appreciate your sensible, level headed comments, jebrick. At least you recognize that as soon as humans get involved, they'll fuck everything up. So the prudent thing to do is create a mechanism to deal with it. But one side doesn't want that, as they don't mind the collateral damage caused by their ideology. They actually want it.

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 Post subject: Re: Jussie Smollett Charged with False Report
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:22 pm 
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jebrick wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
jebrick wrote:
As with most arguments, people are looking at the "pure" form of something rather than the mixture that everyone has. By all definitions that I can find, Socialism is social ownership of the production (plus worker rights stuff). Capitalism is the exact opposite. Both are pretty bad in their pure forms.


My complaint was that it seems that social insurance programs (liberal things) were being conflated with government ownership of industry.


SS is just a safety net that grew out of the depression. Since the Government does not control retirement savings I would say that one is safe.

Medicaid/Medicare definitely does not control the industry or there would be a different debate.

Military industrial complex gets closer to control than most other but still is arguably not.


I realize all this, but I was called an Ivory Tower dumb fuck for saying it. What you have expressed was what I was told was a distinction without a difference and an "intellectually bankrupt argument." (Nevermind that it is a claim, not an argument.)

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 Post subject: Re: Jussie Smollett Charged with False Report
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:14 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
SteelPro wrote:
I bolded your comments once already. Now please proceed with walking back all your comments and calling people morons.


I literally never said that. You are just such an idiot that you imagined I said it. Wow.

Bold them again because the point flew over your head. Which, by the way, is an EXCELLENT argument against free college education.

You won't do that, because what you "bolded" was complete mental diarrhea that only accentuates your ignorance. I mean, it really didn't even have anything to do with the point I was making....just a triggered retard reflex. But I'm talking to to a gerbil here - you didn't understand what I was saying, and you had no clue what you meant in response.


I NEVER said that all that "free shit" would stimulate the economy. You're a liar and/or an idiot.


There you go. I bolded it for you.


Instead of being a blowhard and just lobbing insults why don't you just clarify your reasoning. These were your own words:

Quote:
IMO, the far bigger issue is "free shit" simply because people would rather spend their money on something else.


and...

Quote:
Free healthcare" is the really dubious one. Let's ignore the pre-existing conditions - real problem that was awful. But the issue is there's no utility derived from buying insurance (until/unless you need it). So in many cases it's not that people can't afford insurance, they just don't feel a tangible benefit and would instead rather spend that money on a more expensive car, house, tv, travel, etc...


Correct me if I'm wrong.. you believe most people actually can afford insurance. However, their preference is to buy "other stuff". Just by doing a little deductive reasoning it can assumed that no longer needing to buy insurance or pay for college (fill in whatever entitlement you want) makes the decisions to buy "other stuff" much easier. And buying stuff certainly qualifies as economic activity. If you think there is fallacy in this argument, I'd love to hear it sans the 4th grade name calling. From my perch though I don't see how one can argue that people that would prefer to make consumptive purchases wouldn't do so if they were no longer saddled with covering education or insurance bills. Now if the argument is that the money drain from taxes to cover these entitlement programs more than offsets the increased consumption of the middle and lower classes and it would hurt the economy on a macro level, I can agree with that. An educated economist might have advanced that theory.

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 Post subject: Re: Jussie Smollett Charged with False Report
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:59 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
Amazon paid zero taxes. A trillion dollar company. What tax liability did shareholders have? In total?

Dumpster has had refunds and plenty of tax cuts/ loopholes to take advantage of just like other wealthy people. The most recent cut he signed gave himself like $30 M. Corporations bought back stock, instead of injecting that capital into the economy.

Off shore corporate tax shelters hide how much money? Trickle down doesn't work. The last forty years of shit has proven this.

I can get on board with reducing taxes for the individual. But whatever measly tax cut was given to individual tax payers will expire, while corporate cuts are permanent. Why is that?


It is funny -- one question is what do you believe happened to the cash that was utilized to purchase the stock back?

Moreover, when you say trickle down doesn't work, there are a couple of points:

1. Have tax incidences actually decrease (or was it base broadening and rate reductions)?

2. Are we really worse off? A lot of the stagant wage articles aren't terribly accurate.


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 Post subject: Re: Jussie Smollett Charged with False Report
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:00 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
jebrick wrote:
As with most arguments, people are looking at the "pure" form of something rather than the mixture that everyone has. By all definitions that I can find, Socialism is social ownership of the production (plus worker rights stuff). Capitalism is the exact opposite. Both are pretty bad in their pure forms.
Yeah, but that argument can't be manipulated and used as a political tool. Like labeling anything the government does is "socialism."

This isn't about semantics, or word definition, reality, or history. It's about demonizing the opposition and winning at all costs. There is no such thing as compromise. Some people just got wrapped up in the battle and lost their minds. Then others followed, and this country is headed down the toilet because of it.

And I appreciate your sensible, level headed comments, jebrick. At least you recognize that as soon as humans get involved, they'll fuck everything up. So the prudent thing to do is create a mechanism to deal with it. But one side doesn't want that, as they don't mind the collateral damage caused by their ideology. They actually want it.


The irony is soooo thick.

You support setting up an orgnaization staffed with humans with increidbly strong problems to deal with humans "fucking everything up." You do see the irony, no?


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 Post subject: Re: Jussie Smollett Charged with False Report
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:36 am 
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Zeke5123 wrote:
The irony is soooo thick.

You support setting up an orgnaization staffed with humans with increidbly strong problems to deal with humans "fucking everything up." You do see the irony, no?


LOL, no.

And the simple question is - "OK, that's what you want...then why not just try it out in your state first?"

OK, let's not demonize socialism at face value....but it still seems to make rational sense that maybe ideal social insurance solutions are not best administered at the federal level, but rather state (and perhaps even local) level.

Because you hit the nail on the head that there really isn't much the federal govt does well or effectively.

OK, spoiler alert: The reason behind the push for federal solutions is because taxes can't fund this - it requires a federal govt to deficit spend and print money. That will work, for a little while.

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 Post subject: Re: Jussie Smollett Charged with False Report
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:39 am 
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SteelPro wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong.. .


You're wrong. Nothing you wrote demonstrated that you understood what I was saying, much less indicated even a basic understanding of economics.

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 Post subject: Re: Jussie Smollett Charged with False Report
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:04 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
[
Several things:


Let's talk single payer, as an example (and extend to energy, nearly 30% of the economy).
- The govt dictate what services you provide, how you will provide them, whom you provide them too, and how much you'll be paid.


But in your world, that's not socialism.....because the govt isn't actually running your company?!?

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