It is currently Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:56 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 196 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 8  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:19 am
Posts: 10999
955876 wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Well golly! Look! Actual expertise!

Like I said.

We need an honest conversation informed by experts about the advantages and disadvantages of all the tools before doing something that cannot be undone.

Glad I lack common sense enough to need that discussion since I am not informed enough to presume whether it is the best solution.


Let’s assune a massive (and expensive) study is done, Will Pelosi and Schmuer actually give the Homeland Secretary her due curtesy and respect and at least listen to her report? Or will they simply shut her down (again) and “reject her facts” before she even presents them?

And once again, you are distorting the nature and intent of what was actually said. Your common sense wasn’t questioned for wanting to see data or a study.


If there was actually a quality study done that provided evidence of best practices based on the present infrastructure that concluded a honkin' wall would be the best option, they'd be in deep shit. Trump would be bullhorning that shit and once the papers got a hold of it and vetted it, if there was agreement about the facts, I think it would put the dems in a very bad light.

My response is that the question you raise pertains to a different issue, one that is a problem with both parties. Supppe the study came back and said the wall is not as effective as some other matrix of options. Think Trump is going to say, oh, well, then, let's do that? We, the public, have to suffer through so much partisan ego/pride BS, it's insufferable.

_________________
#CdnSteelerFanStrong
Orangesteel wrote:
We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:12 pm
Posts: 4932
Quote:
We, the public, have to suffer through so much partisan ego/pride BS, it's insufferable.


100% agree. Far too many in government forget they ALL work for WE THE PEOPLE.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:22 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:08 pm
Posts: 7378
More expertise.

Quote:
Amy Patrick
January 8 at 7:52 PM · 
Howdy.
To recap: I’m a licensed structural and civil engineer with a MS in structural engineering from the top program in the nation and over a decade of experience on high-performance projects, and particularly of cleaning up design disasters where the factors weren’t properly accounted for, and I’m an adjunct professor of structural analysis and design at UH-Downtown. I have previously been deposed as an expert witness in matters regarding proper construction of walls and the various factors associated therein, and my testimony has passed Daubert.
Am I a wall expert? I am. I am literally a court-accepted expert on walls.
Structurally and civil engineering-wise, the border wall is not a feasible project. Trump did not hire engineers to design the thing. He solicited bids from contractors, not engineers. This means it’s not been designed by professionals. It’s a disaster of numerous types waiting to happen.
What disasters?
Off the top of my head...
1) It will mess with our ability to drain land in flash flooding. Anything impeding the ability of water to get where it needs to go (doesn’t matter if there are holes in the wall or whatever) is going to dramatically increase the risk of flooding.
2) Messes with all kind of stuff ecologically. For all other projects, we have to do an Environmental Site Assessment, which is arduous. They’re either planning to circumvent all this, or they haven’t accounted for it yet, because that’s part of the design process, and this thing hasn’t been designed.
3) The prototypes they came up with are nearly impossible to build or don’t actually do the job. This article explains more:
https://www.google.com/…/mobile.engineering.…/amp/17599.html
And so on.
The estimates provided for the cost are arrived at unreasonably. You can look for yourself at the two-year-old estimate that you see everyone citing.
http://fronterasdesk.org/…/Bernstein-%20The%20Trump%20Wall.…
It does not account for rework, complexities beyond the prototype design, factors to prevent flood and environmental hazard creation, engineering redesign... It’s going to be higher than $50bn. The contractors will hit the government with near CONSTANT change orders. “Cost overrun” will be the name of the game. It will not be completed in Trump’s lifetime.
I’m a structural forensicist, which means I’m called in when things go wrong. This is a project that WILL go wrong. When projects go wrong, the original estimates are just *obliterated*. And when that happens, good luck getting it fixed, because there aren’t that many forensicists out there to right the ship, particularly not that are willing to work on a border wall project— a large quotient of us are immigrants, and besides, we can’t afford to bid on jobs that are this political. We’re small firms, and we’re already busy, and we don’t gamble our reputations on political footballs. So you’d end up with a revolving door of contractors making a giant, uncoordinated muddle of things, and it’d generally be a mess. Good money after bad. The GAO agrees with me.
And it won’t be effective. I could, right now, purchase a 32 foot extension ladder and weld a cheap custom saddle for the top of the proposed wall so that I can get over it. I don’t know who they talked to about the wall design and its efficacy, but it sure as heck wasn’t anybody with any engineering imagination.
Another thing: we are not far from the day where inexpensive drones will be able to pick up and carry someone. This will happen in the next ten years, and it’s folly to think that the coyotes who ferry people over the border won’t purchase or create them. They’re low enough, quiet enough, and small enough to quickly zip people over any wall we could build undetected with our current monitoring setup.
Let’s have border security, by all means, but let’s be smart about it. This is not smart. It’s not effective. It’s NOT cheap. The returns will be diminishing as technology advances, too. This is a ridiculous idea that will never be successfully executed and, as such, would be a monumental waste of money. 
This is set to public. Have a blast sharing it.

_________________
"I wish Fraudlin would get testicular cancer and die after he watches me anally penetrate his wife."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:12 pm
Posts: 4932
Good points in that article.

So what are the chances if the wall is taken off the table the Dems will agree to stop ridiculous programs like free healthcare for illegals?

When we dangle the free stuff carrot for the entire world to see how can we in turn not expect massive caravans to form and attempt to get what is being offered?

Shit like that is why people want this to stop. Not because they are afraid of “brown people”.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:31 pm
Posts: 1360
COR-TEN wrote:
More expertise.

Quote:
Amy Patrick
January 8 at 7:52 PM · 
Howdy.
To recap: I’m a licensed structural and civil engineer with a MS in structural engineering from the top program in the nation and over a decade of experience on high-performance projects, and particularly of cleaning up design disasters where the factors weren’t properly accounted for, and I’m an adjunct professor of structural analysis and design at UH-Downtown. I have previously been deposed as an expert witness in matters regarding proper construction of walls and the various factors associated therein, and my testimony has passed Daubert.
Am I a wall expert? I am. I am literally a court-accepted expert on walls.
Structurally and civil engineering-wise, the border wall is not a feasible project. Trump did not hire engineers to design the thing. He solicited bids from contractors, not engineers. This means it’s not been designed by professionals. It’s a disaster of numerous types waiting to happen.
What disasters?
Off the top of my head...
1) It will mess with our ability to drain land in flash flooding. Anything impeding the ability of water to get where it needs to go (doesn’t matter if there are holes in the wall or whatever) is going to dramatically increase the risk of flooding.
2) Messes with all kind of stuff ecologically. For all other projects, we have to do an Environmental Site Assessment, which is arduous. They’re either planning to circumvent all this, or they haven’t accounted for it yet, because that’s part of the design process, and this thing hasn’t been designed.
3) The prototypes they came up with are nearly impossible to build or don’t actually do the job. This article explains more:
https://www.google.com/…/mobile.engineering.…/amp/17599.html
And so on.
The estimates provided for the cost are arrived at unreasonably. You can look for yourself at the two-year-old estimate that you see everyone citing.
http://fronterasdesk.org/…/Bernstein-%20The%20Trump%20Wall.…
It does not account for rework, complexities beyond the prototype design, factors to prevent flood and environmental hazard creation, engineering redesign... It’s going to be higher than $50bn. The contractors will hit the government with near CONSTANT change orders. “Cost overrun” will be the name of the game. It will not be completed in Trump’s lifetime.
I’m a structural forensicist, which means I’m called in when things go wrong. This is a project that WILL go wrong. When projects go wrong, the original estimates are just *obliterated*. And when that happens, good luck getting it fixed, because there aren’t that many forensicists out there to right the ship, particularly not that are willing to work on a border wall project— a large quotient of us are immigrants, and besides, we can’t afford to bid on jobs that are this political. We’re small firms, and we’re already busy, and we don’t gamble our reputations on political footballs. So you’d end up with a revolving door of contractors making a giant, uncoordinated muddle of things, and it’d generally be a mess. Good money after bad. The GAO agrees with me.
And it won’t be effective. I could, right now, purchase a 32 foot extension ladder and weld a cheap custom saddle for the top of the proposed wall so that I can get over it. I don’t know who they talked to about the wall design and its efficacy, but it sure as heck wasn’t anybody with any engineering imagination.
Another thing: we are not far from the day where inexpensive drones will be able to pick up and carry someone. This will happen in the next ten years, and it’s folly to think that the coyotes who ferry people over the border won’t purchase or create them. They’re low enough, quiet enough, and small enough to quickly zip people over any wall we could build undetected with our current monitoring setup.
Let’s have border security, by all means, but let’s be smart about it. This is not smart. It’s not effective. It’s NOT cheap. The returns will be diminishing as technology advances, too. This is a ridiculous idea that will never be successfully executed and, as such, would be a monumental waste of money. 
This is set to public. Have a blast sharing it.


Excellent article. Everything she said is probably right, particularly using engineers to design the wall. Maybe we should go to Israel and hire the guys who built their wall as it seems it has been successful.. I agree with her assessment that it will take much more than 50 million as well, but considering we spend over 100 billion annually supporting illegal, let's pass laws that give illegal nothing, not a damn dime and divert that 100 billion per year for the next 15 years to build a proper wall designed by a structural engineer. That would effectively give border security a financial influx of over a trillion dollars to help solve our problem. Now, she says that there aren't many who do her job and most are immigrants. If you have a contract worth 10 million to oversee the construction, is she to tell me I couldn't find someone to do the job. Is it because of reputation, politics, or would it be because they are an immigrant? It's amazing to me the viewpoints of immigrants themselves, particularly those who came here the right way. I agree with 95. We have to make it unattractive to come here, but you also have to have deterents of some kind. Does she have any idea how expensive a drone would be that could lift someone over a wall? Coyotes would have to charge illegals 1000's of dollars just to be able to afford a drone that could do it. Those drones are also years away, unless you're the military, and I'm afraid they will be too expensive for coyotes. Illegals couldn't afford the cost to buy their service. Border patrol would shoot them down which again would be quite an expensive replacement cost relative to the money they would make.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:05 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:08 pm
Posts: 7378
alancac98 wrote:
Excellent article. Everything she said is probably right, particularly using engineers to design the wall. Maybe we should go to Israel and hire the guys who built their wall as it seems it has been successful.. I agree with her assessment that it will take much more than 50 million as well, but considering we spend over 100 billion annually supporting illegal, let's pass laws that give illegal nothing, not a damn dime and divert that 100 billion per year for the next 15 years to build a proper wall designed by a structural engineer. That would effectively give border security a financial influx of over a trillion dollars to help solve our problem. Now, she says that there aren't many who do her job and most are immigrants. If you have a contract worth 10 million to oversee the construction, is she to tell me I couldn't find someone to do the job. Is it because of reputation, politics, or would it be because they are an immigrant? It's amazing to me the viewpoints of immigrants themselves, particularly those who came here the right way. I agree with 95. We have to make it unattractive to come here, but you also have to have deterents of some kind. Does she have any idea how expensive a drone would be that could lift someone over a wall? Coyotes would have to charge illegals 1000's of dollars just to be able to afford a drone that could do it. Those drones are also years away, unless you're the military, and I'm afraid they will be too expensive for coyotes. Illegals couldn't afford the cost to buy their service. Border patrol would shoot them down which again would be quite an expensive replacement cost relative to the money they would make.
Sorry. I haven't read your entire post, but the Israel example is inaccurate and not applicable. The situations are completely different. Context, please!!!

_________________
"I wish Fraudlin would get testicular cancer and die after he watches me anally penetrate his wife."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:31 pm
Posts: 1360
What about towers with directed - energy weapons. Attach these non-lethal weapons to laser targeting systems and they could deter any human from desiring further interaction.

[url][https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed-energy_weapon/url]

I know these are still in development, but could be a great deterent and use at the border...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:31 pm
Posts: 1360
COR-TEN wrote:
alancac98 wrote:
Excellent article. Everything she said is probably right, particularly using engineers to design the wall. Maybe we should go to Israel and hire the guys who built their wall as it seems it has been successful.. I agree with her assessment that it will take much more than 50 million as well, but considering we spend over 100 billion annually supporting illegal, let's pass laws that give illegal nothing, not a damn dime and divert that 100 billion per year for the next 15 years to build a proper wall designed by a structural engineer. That would effectively give border security a financial influx of over a trillion dollars to help solve our problem. Now, she says that there aren't many who do her job and most are immigrants. If you have a contract worth 10 million to oversee the construction, is she to tell me I couldn't find someone to do the job. Is it because of reputation, politics, or would it be because they are an immigrant? It's amazing to me the viewpoints of immigrants themselves, particularly those who came here the right way. I agree with 95. We have to make it unattractive to come here, but you also have to have deterents of some kind. Does she have any idea how expensive a drone would be that could lift someone over a wall? Coyotes would have to charge illegals 1000's of dollars just to be able to afford a drone that could do it. Those drones are also years away, unless you're the military, and I'm afraid they will be too expensive for coyotes. Illegals couldn't afford the cost to buy their service. Border patrol would shoot them down which again would be quite an expensive replacement cost relative to the money they would make.
Sorry. I haven't read your entire post, but the Israel example is inaccurate and not applicable. The situations are completely different. Context, please!!!


The point was that the US government could find someone to design a wall. Maybe noone here in America, but outside the US if necessary.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:08 pm
Posts: 7378
alancac98 wrote:
What about towers with directed - energy weapons. Attach these non-lethal weapons to laser targeting systems and they could deter any human from desiring further interaction.

[url][https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed-energy_weapon/url]

I know these are still in development, but could be a great deterent and use at the border...
Why are you so afraid of immigrants? Legal or not? 12 million undocumented immigrants with a population of 325 million? If we're supposed to be so concerned with abused resources, aren't there other places where people are walking to the bank with WAY more resources than a measly 12 million people sending minimum wage benefits overseas? If this is about theft, and abuse of resources, aren't there 10 other more financially impactful areas that need to be addressed ahead of "aliens?"

_________________
"I wish Fraudlin would get testicular cancer and die after he watches me anally penetrate his wife."


Last edited by COR-TEN on Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:08 pm
Posts: 7378
alancac98 wrote:
COR-TEN wrote:
alancac98 wrote:
Excellent article. Everything she said is probably right, particularly using engineers to design the wall. Maybe we should go to Israel and hire the guys who built their wall as it seems it has been successful.. I agree with her assessment that it will take much more than 50 million as well, but considering we spend over 100 billion annually supporting illegal, let's pass laws that give illegal nothing, not a damn dime and divert that 100 billion per year for the next 15 years to build a proper wall designed by a structural engineer. That would effectively give border security a financial influx of over a trillion dollars to help solve our problem. Now, she says that there aren't many who do her job and most are immigrants. If you have a contract worth 10 million to oversee the construction, is she to tell me I couldn't find someone to do the job. Is it because of reputation, politics, or would it be because they are an immigrant? It's amazing to me the viewpoints of immigrants themselves, particularly those who came here the right way. I agree with 95. We have to make it unattractive to come here, but you also have to have deterents of some kind. Does she have any idea how expensive a drone would be that could lift someone over a wall? Coyotes would have to charge illegals 1000's of dollars just to be able to afford a drone that could do it. Those drones are also years away, unless you're the military, and I'm afraid they will be too expensive for coyotes. Illegals couldn't afford the cost to buy their service. Border patrol would shoot them down which again would be quite an expensive replacement cost relative to the money they would make.
Sorry. I haven't read your entire post, but the Israel example is inaccurate and not applicable. The situations are completely different. Context, please!!!


The point was that the US government could find someone to design a wall. Maybe noone here in America, but outside the US if necessary.
Please. This country is supposedly the best in the world. Why do we need to ask Israel for help? For a construction job. no less.

Further, the situations are totally different. Israel and the IDF are perfectly fine with mowing down palestinians on the other side of the "wall". And tunnels are still a problem.

Is that what you want for america?

_________________
"I wish Fraudlin would get testicular cancer and die after he watches me anally penetrate his wife."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:31 pm
Posts: 1360
No Cor-Ten, I'm not in favor of mowing people down, otherwise I would be all for towers with lethal weapons and a very sophisticated mine field on the border.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:31 pm
Posts: 1360
Wow Cor-Ten. I'm not afraid of illegals. I think most people in this country welcome others from around the world, but the people coming from SA countries seem to have no interest in doing it the right way. Are you a fair guy, or an asshole that cuts in line at the grocery store? See, I want to be fair to all those around the world who desire the American Dream, but there's a difference. Those from overseas, file the necessary paperwork to come here, then gain US citizenship. Those who come from SA, come here to escape the hardships in their country and there is nothing wrong with that. But, how many illegals, even after caught and released, actually show up for their hearing, get a visa, then become a US citizen? No, I don't know the statistic but I doubt it is anywhere close to the rate from the process done the right way.

And to answer your question, how come illegals are treated better than naturally born citizens? And you're not pissed off about it? How can illegals be treated better than our older Americans who fought in the wars, who grew this nation after the wars? And you're not pissed about it? How come illegals are treated better than our veterans, you know, the ones who risked their lives so we can live the life we do? And you're not pissed about it? Why do you want to give America away for free?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:12 pm
Posts: 4932
Quote:
undocumented


By definition undocumented is just that.

If they are not documented how them can they know how many are here?

There have been several published reports that the number of illegals here is actually much higher than the gov has been telling us.

And people are not “afraid” of illegals. Just stop with that nonsense.

People are tired of their tax dollars serving illegals.

That and when scumbag illegals murder people. Cuz ummm that isn’t happening either is it Cor-Ten??


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:44 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:34 am
Posts: 5843
Still Lit wrote:
955876 wrote:
Quote:
No, you rushed to make a snarky post and in doing so posted something stupid.


I’m actually glad you think a simple snarky comment is stupid. Because that comment was about exactly what the major Dem “leadership” floated as part of the solution to “border security”.

Ironic

Did you think it was also stupid when Pelosi and her minions said it? If so, I’m glad to hear.

And besides single snarky comment about more judges what the hell else is wrong with anything else I’ve said here.

Particularly for you to call me a dumb fuck.

Do you REALLY need a study to determine a wall can effectively keep people out.

And since I was being playful in my snarky comment t and in turn you are being hostile I’ll ask a more hostile type of question.

And that is, do you have a shread if common sense Lit?

A barrier is literally the most effective first step in securing the area. You build out from there with additional methods.

A study on the most effective way??

I brought up Israel. Their wall works pretty damn good.

As do others. But no, let’s spends billions and billions more doing a “study” to determine how to keep some over there from getting over here and do it 24/7.

You tell me your first idea. Mine would be an adequate barrier.

Your turn.

A drone? A study? Ask them kindly not to enter? More border patrol that catches and releases?

Quite sensitive Lit.


You're confusing my thinking you're being an idiot about this for me being sensitive. And if you think I lack common sense because I prefer policy to be based on evidence and thorough debate of the advantages and disadvantages of all the options rather than assumptions (common sense), I'll wear that hat.

We already have walls. It's not like we don't have any. The question is, what is the best way to enhance security on OUR border in OUR specific situation going forward?

Again, unlike you, I do not presume to know.


Didn't the wall they built in the San Diego area have a well documented positive result? I believe it was in the 90s? Legit question.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:10 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:34 am
Posts: 5843
And Lit, i'm kinda shocked at your posts. 95 is opinionated but I saw nothing that warranted "dumb fuck" "ass" and "idiot". You look unusually childish.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:26 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:19 am
Posts: 10999
R S wrote:
And Lit, i'm kinda shocked at your posts. 95 is opinionated but I saw nothing that warranted "dumb fuck" "ass" and "idiot". You look unusually childish.


I took him to be in earnest when he was not. And who knows why I reacted that way on that day.

Never be shocked if I post something stupid.

Apologies to 95.

My reaction was primarily pointed at the contention that common sense tells you a wall is the best option and that studies are not needed. But it turns out that experts in infrastructure have serious concerns about doing it.

Regarding success, it is not that a wall cannot be effective. The question is what matrix of tools is going to have the best ratio of advantage to disadvantage. The government office of accountability in the link I posted claims that C and BP have yet to do any kind of study on the effectiveness of their tools and practices.

If Mexico is not going to pay for it, we need a full run down of what is going to work best before we plow ahead on a campaign meme.

Again, sorry 95.

_________________
#CdnSteelerFanStrong
Orangesteel wrote:
We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:31 pm
Posts: 1360
Question as I do not know the answer myself. We have some wall built - who designed it? Was it a structural engineer or contractor? I believe that some parts of a wall have been standing for quite some time. I would love to know how much has been spent on maintaining them since construction. That would give us at least some idea as to how they what has already been done needed to be maintained.

Just to play devil advocate, but any structural engineer coming out and saying that unless it is done by a structural engineer it will not work - could be hogwash. I would think they have a reason for saying such things such as not wanting to admit others can do something they went to school for? It's sometimes hard to admit that things can be done without a "professional" - just sayin'.
I'm sure an ecologist would be willing to chime in that they too need to be part of any plan. What about an environmental engineer? Lot of professionals would have their hands in this project honestly and none of them would defer to the other! I'm not discounting what Amy Patrick said as I feel there are definitely legitimate concerns with the construction, but she also has a reason to question them from her professions point of view.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:31 pm
Posts: 1360
Still Lit wrote:
R S wrote:
And Lit, i'm kinda shocked at your posts. 95 is opinionated but I saw nothing that warranted "dumb fuck" "ass" and "idiot". You look unusually childish.


I took him to be in earnest when he was not. And who knows why I reacted that way on that day.

Never be shocked if I post something stupid.

Apologies to 95.

My reaction was primarily pointed at the contention that common sense tells you a wall is the best option and that studies are not needed. But it turns out that experts in infrastructure have serious concerns about doing it.

Regarding success, it is not that a wall cannot be effective. The question is what matrix of tools is going to have the best ratio of advantage to disadvantage. The government office of accountability in the link I posted claims that C and BP have yet to do any kind of study on the effectiveness of their tools and practices.

If Mexico is not going to pay for it, we need a full run down of what is going to work best before we plow ahead on a campaign meme.

Again, sorry 95.


Actually, if you would use the drug money confiscated and any properties confiscated and sold, then you could argue that some of the wall would be built by Mexico, ;)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:12 pm
Posts: 4932
No worries Lit. It’s all good. Appreciate the apology.

Thanks as well to you RS...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:08 pm
Posts: 7378
FYI.

California, Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona are all pulling the National Guard off the border. They didn't want to participate in fearmongering and a manufactured crisis.

And by the way, I've never seen anybody express outrage at calling me a dumbass, let alone apologizing for it. Not that I care mind you, it just shows how much this forum leans right.

_________________
"I wish Fraudlin would get testicular cancer and die after he watches me anally penetrate his wife."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:22 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:19 am
Posts: 10999
alancac98 wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
R S wrote:
And Lit, i'm kinda shocked at your posts. 95 is opinionated but I saw nothing that warranted "dumb fuck" "ass" and "idiot". You look unusually childish.


I took him to be in earnest when he was not. And who knows why I reacted that way on that day.

Never be shocked if I post something stupid.

Apologies to 95.

My reaction was primarily pointed at the contention that common sense tells you a wall is the best option and that studies are not needed. But it turns out that experts in infrastructure have serious concerns about doing it.

Regarding success, it is not that a wall cannot be effective. The question is what matrix of tools is going to have the best ratio of advantage to disadvantage. The government office of accountability in the link I posted claims that C and BP have yet to do any kind of study on the effectiveness of their tools and practices.

If Mexico is not going to pay for it, we need a full run down of what is going to work best before we plow ahead on a campaign meme.

Again, sorry 95.


Actually, if you would use the drug money confiscated and any properties confiscated and sold, then you could argue that some of the wall would be built by Mexico, ;)


Yeah, drug money the vast majority of which is earned through LEGAL ports of entry. ;)

_________________
#CdnSteelerFanStrong
Orangesteel wrote:
We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:12 pm
Posts: 4932
I’d love to see how you go about explaining caravans of people numbering in the tens of thousands is a “manufactured crisis” Cor-Ten

It’s also estimated that approx. 2,000 people are caught or seen crossing daily. Border patrol uses those numbers to estimate how many are not caught or seen.

To pretend it isn’t an issue is intellectually dishonest. There is an issue. The severity and solution can be disagreed upon and debated but it really cannot be debated that an issue does in fact exist.

Manufactures crisis... :roll:

Are the billions of tax payer dollars that go to support the illegals manufactured too?

And I just scanned the entire thread. Nobody has called you any type of name here. So why the sniveling? Not enough victemhood in your life this morning?

Thread is 3 pages in. For the most part the debate has been civil. Lit tossed some name calling around and it was uncalled for.

He apologized. I accepted. It’s called civility and respect.

I’m sorry you were left out even though no hostilities or insults have been directed to you here.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:42 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:08 pm
Posts: 7378
955876 wrote:
I’d love to see how you go about explaining caravans of people numbering in the tens of thousands is a “manufactured crisis” Cor-Ten

It’s also estimated that approx. 2,000 people are caught or seen crossing daily. Border patrol uses those numbers to estimate how many are not caught or seen.

To pretend it isn’t an issue is intellectually dishonest. There is an issue. The severity and solution can be disagreed upon and debated but it really cannot be debated that an issue does in fact exist.

Manufactures crisis... :roll:

Are the billions of tax payer dollars that go to support the illegals manufactured too?

And I just scanned the entire thread. Nobody has called you any type of name here. So why the sniveling? Not enough victemhood in your life this morning?

Thread is 3 pages in. For the most part the debate has been civil. Lit tossed some name calling around and it was uncalled for.

He apologized. I accepted. It’s called civility and respect.

I’m sorry you were left out even though no hostilities or insults have been directed to you here.
Are you really this stupid? I mean, you have a decent job, in a white collar industry, and aren't a teenager. Yet you speak like you're 15 years old. Apparently you have difficulty with the definition of "Crisis." And you still leveled insults, albeit without using profanities.

And no. I'm not gonna apologize for that. Go fuck yourself.

_________________
"I wish Fraudlin would get testicular cancer and die after he watches me anally penetrate his wife."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:12 pm
Posts: 4932
Testy lil socialist this morning.

Talking like a 15 year old? That’s a good one.

And you can define “crisis” however you wish.

To most people, a caravan of people numbering in the tens of thousands attempting to cross our border illegally all the while making demands is a bit of an issue.

And by the way, I’ve been called plenty of names by plenty of people here. Don’t think I’ve ever made a comment in a thread however complaining of PAST name calling.

Maybe if you take this up with the board mods they will arrange some type of reparations for the names you were not called here in this thread but were called at some point in the past.

I was of the frame of mind that Lit and I had settled things already in this thread and didn’t feel any further apology was needed. It was brought up however and he sent along an apology. I accepted and appreciated it.

Then you come along whining about being called names in other threads at other times. Got to find something to be outraged about right?

:roll:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:55 pm
Posts: 5048
COR-TEN wrote:
More expertise.

Quote:
Amy Patrick
January 8 at 7:52 PM · 
Howdy.
To recap: I’m a licensed structural and civil engineer with a MS in structural engineering from the top program in the nation and over a decade of experience on high-performance projects, and particularly of cleaning up design disasters where the factors weren’t properly accounted for, and I’m an adjunct professor of structural analysis and design at UH-Downtown. I have previously been deposed as an expert witness in matters regarding proper construction of walls and the various factors associated therein, and my testimony has passed Daubert.
Am I a wall expert? I am. I am literally a court-accepted expert on walls.
Structurally and civil engineering-wise, the border wall is not a feasible project. Trump did not hire engineers to design the thing. He solicited bids from contractors, not engineers. This means it’s not been designed by professionals. It’s a disaster of numerous types waiting to happen.
What disasters?
Off the top of my head...
1) It will mess with our ability to drain land in flash flooding. Anything impeding the ability of water to get where it needs to go (doesn’t matter if there are holes in the wall or whatever) is going to dramatically increase the risk of flooding.
2) Messes with all kind of stuff ecologically. For all other projects, we have to do an Environmental Site Assessment, which is arduous. They’re either planning to circumvent all this, or they haven’t accounted for it yet, because that’s part of the design process, and this thing hasn’t been designed.
3) The prototypes they came up with are nearly impossible to build or don’t actually do the job. This article explains more:
https://www.google.com/…/mobile.engineering.…/amp/17599.html
And so on.
The estimates provided for the cost are arrived at unreasonably. You can look for yourself at the two-year-old estimate that you see everyone citing.
http://fronterasdesk.org/…/Bernstein-%20The%20Trump%20Wall.…
It does not account for rework, complexities beyond the prototype design, factors to prevent flood and environmental hazard creation, engineering redesign... It’s going to be higher than $50bn. The contractors will hit the government with near CONSTANT change orders. “Cost overrun” will be the name of the game. It will not be completed in Trump’s lifetime.
I’m a structural forensicist, which means I’m called in when things go wrong. This is a project that WILL go wrong. When projects go wrong, the original estimates are just *obliterated*. And when that happens, good luck getting it fixed, because there aren’t that many forensicists out there to right the ship, particularly not that are willing to work on a border wall project— a large quotient of us are immigrants, and besides, we can’t afford to bid on jobs that are this political. We’re small firms, and we’re already busy, and we don’t gamble our reputations on political footballs. So you’d end up with a revolving door of contractors making a giant, uncoordinated muddle of things, and it’d generally be a mess. Good money after bad. The GAO agrees with me.
And it won’t be effective. I could, right now, purchase a 32 foot extension ladder and weld a cheap custom saddle for the top of the proposed wall so that I can get over it. I don’t know who they talked to about the wall design and its efficacy, but it sure as heck wasn’t anybody with any engineering imagination.
Another thing: we are not far from the day where inexpensive drones will be able to pick up and carry someone. This will happen in the next ten years, and it’s folly to think that the coyotes who ferry people over the border won’t purchase or create them. They’re low enough, quiet enough, and small enough to quickly zip people over any wall we could build undetected with our current monitoring setup.
Let’s have border security, by all means, but let’s be smart about it. This is not smart. It’s not effective. It’s NOT cheap. The returns will be diminishing as technology advances, too. This is a ridiculous idea that will never be successfully executed and, as such, would be a monumental waste of money. 
This is set to public. Have a blast sharing it.


Interesting comments.

I am not here to discredit this person at all, but the funny thing about Engineers is that if you put 10 Engineers in a room with a specific task of creating something to solve the issue, you might get 3 or 4 different solutions. There may be a person who works in this person's very department who disagrees with 80% of what this person is saying. That same person could fully agree with the posits above..just hard to get a consensus what exactly is the "right/optimal" solution to this problem.

But we've all heard the phrase: "this was over-engineered". Well I think there's truth to that axiom, that these individuals tend to overthink things and want something to work 100% of the time- that's just not possible or reasonable. Not to say I want a team of slack jawed yokels assigned to such a project, but there has to be some reasonableness invoked here because we need to accept whatever is created will have some percent failure rate...

_________________
#CdnSteelerFanStrong


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 196 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 8  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
FORUM RULES --- PRIVACY POLICY




Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group