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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:11 pm 
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Quote:
Hahahahahahahah


Don’t laugh, make a commitment. You are certain of these things. If they play out as you think you’ll most certainly be here gloating.

I’m just trying to see if you are man enough to come eat crow as well.

Your boy Mueller has had two years and an open checkbook of taxpayer dollars. Not to mention a DOJ that CLEARLY worked to avoid prosecuting Hillary and openly despised Trump.

So if charges are not brought against Trump there is no way you’d be able to claim the DOJ is protecting him.

So what do you say tough guy? Willing to come eat crow if he is not found to be an agent of Russia?


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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:24 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
Laying the Wood wrote:
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Maybe the future elderly generations won't have to live in poverty because they made a living wage when they were younger.
This country was built on cheap labor. You cannot remove it from its DNA. It will be rationalized/ justified and then many will use legislation and financial pressures to dictate behavior - inserting government into your life. Further, minimum wage has not matched the rise of the cost of living or inflation since 1975. Matching the rise would bring the minimum wage to $15/hr. But that's not acceptable because many believe you're not supposed to live on min wage.


I personally don’t feel that anyone is “supposed” to live on minimum wage. But I will say this. It would probably be better if min wage increases were automatic and pinned to some sort of inflation index. It would end much of the hassling over what amounts to setting it to an arbitrary level every so often. And from a business standpoint it would be better to have some certainty as to what the wage minimum will be going forward and not have it be volatile due to the whims of whatever political faction is in power.

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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:39 pm 
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Just did some quick google search.

People currently working and earning the Federal minimum wage represents less than 4% of all workers.

Some stats I came across showed the number to be less. Some more. That’s the thing with stats.

What was consistent was that (as I’ve stated previously) a large % of people at that level of income are aged 25 and below. And a large % of that number is made up of people in the service industry such as waiters/waitress. So tips not factored.

While earni that small amount is an issue, the people at that income level can do things to better their earning potential. Again, you are not meant to remain at the minimum wage in life. It is a starting point for the no to low skilled. Shit, a McDonalds restaurant manager in a fairly busy location can make $100,000/year. So even the lowly fry salter can move up the pay ladder if they apply themselves.

One could argue a bigger issue is the small amount of money people that are unable to work receive. They are the ones truly stuck at poverty level as they likley don’t have many options to change their situation.

My wife had to stop working about 3 1/2 years ago after being diagnosed with a terminal illness. She was an independent contractor so 1099 rather than W2. I paid quarterly taxes on her income but failed to establish and pay into state disability. So when she had to stop working she was not eligible for state disability. That part was my fault.

Federal disability kicks in 5 months after diagnosis. If you break down her monthly amount and base it on a 40 hour work week her payment equates to $7.95/hour. So right about Federal minimum wage and quite a bit less than current California minimum wage of $11.00/hour.

We are very fortunate in that I earn enough this isn’t an issue in our life. However, I have often thought what if she was single? Or worse a single mother?

There are plenty of people out there that can’t work and unless they have other support would or are currently living in or at poverty levels without any real way of improving their situation.

Same could be applied to disabled vets or the elderly.

I think doing somethting more for those people that can’t truly help themselves is more important than the minimum wage issue.

Provided there is oversight as there are also many many out there trying to work the system rather than simply going to work.


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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:04 pm 
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Donnie Brasco wrote:
COR-TEN wrote:
alancac98 wrote:
Didn't Obama bypass Congress and give Iran 150 billion dollars (yeah, a country who hates us and capable of making nuclear weapons)?
You are mistaken. That money was Iranian seized assets after the hostages were taken. The agreement with Iran was approved by congress, and returned the money. So therefore, Obama did NOT bypass congress. Further, it's the Iranian regime that hates the US for standing behind and financially and militarily supporting Israel. But this admin wants to give Saudi Arabia, one of the most totalitarian and ruthless regimes in the area, nuclear technology. After selling them weapons to bomb civilians in Yemen. I'd say that isn't too smart.


Hold on...you said in a previous post that America should pay a "penance" to those countries who aren't as well off.
If the US dropped all aid to Israel, I'm pretty certain they'd be in a MAJOR heap of trouble financially and politically.

But that's the thing with giving ANY monies to any other country- there are going to be things about that country SOMEONE doesn't care for. Israel does a ton of bad stuff...they also provide a safe haven for those who were persecuted about 100 years ago.

I'm curious if you polled the US citizens they'd be in favor of removing all aid to other countries if that meant a more meaningful life for it's citizens. Maybe there'd be more of a taste for those "living wages" or basic income

But that is why the argument is coming full circle: the US doesn't manage it's money well so there's a major faction of the population who feels they have a vested interest in keeping what they have vs giving it away (or having the government decide how it gets distributed).
I realize south and central american countries aren't exactly the bastion of clean governance. But you cannot compare a state that stole someone else's land through terrorism and violence, engages in apartheid, and gobbles up more land thumbing its nose at the UN and rest of the world to an asylum seeker from Guatemala. It's simply not the same thing. One is subsidizing a state, the other is helping an individual.

You do realize that the moment you live in a society, you abide by and must accept the rules of how the nation state spends the money. You take the good with the bad. You agree to pay your taxes, and it would be an impossibility for you to determine how or where it is spent for the greater good. And this is really the full circle discussion :

What is your definition of "greater good?" For some, blowing over $20-30 Billion ($5.6 billion is laughable) to build a 15th century wall is the greater good, while handing tax loopholes to the well off. But if you hate so much how the money is being spent, get out and convince people that a stupid wall is necessary. Because most of the country still thinks it's stupid. And Mexico sure as fuck isn't going to pay for it. You are. So the minority is telling the majority how to spend money, and that's okay with you? Sounds like a double standard when you complain about . . .

Mismanagement of funds is nothing new. Been happening since I've been alive. Nixon blew how much money in Viet Nam? Reagan was the biggest spender, leaving the country in debt. Where was all the outrage at that? Or bushies trillion dollar nation building project because of a colossal lie? The conservative right defended all those decisions vehemently, without question.

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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:34 pm 
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Typical you highlight spending mismanagement only by Republican presidents.

This one in particular.

Quote:
Nixon blew how much money in Viet Nam?


Not saying I’m a fan of Nixon but it was the cocksucker LBJ that escalated that war from 63-69 before Nixon became involved.

Most lay that war at his feet. Not the guy that inherited it from him.

When Nixon took over in 69 there was over half million troops in Vietnam. By 72 it was down to 69,000.


Last edited by 955876 on Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:36 pm 
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Or bushies trillion dollar nation building project because of a colossal lie? The conservative right defended all those decisions vehemently, without question.


As did Senator Hillary Clinton.


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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:44 pm 
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I generally try not to respond to your posts as I have you on ignore, but Bill Clinton, as much as I despise his removal of Glass Steagall (among other things), left the country in surplus. Bush squandered it all on stupidity, and left the country in a state not seen since the crash of 1929. But the facts show Dems are more fiscally responsible than repugnants, and are less prone to criminal activity.

And Nixon, along with Kissinger, extended the war in Viet Nam on fucking purpose for at least 4 years. Look it up, champ.

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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:53 pm 
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Hell, my wife is a cna in an adult care facility. She makes $12.15/hour. The shit she has to deal with (literally sometimes) is amazing and no way in hell I would do the job. It takes a special kind of someone to do that job! Now, say the minimum wages goes up to $15/hour. Yes, she will get a bump in pay, but why would she and others stay in a job like that when she could get a job at say Sheetz cashing people out for the same pay and a whole lot of less stress and SHIT! Now my wife is quite different from others who work there. My wife loves taking care of people so she would not be one to move on from the job, but over half the staff would if they could find an easier job making the same pay. Just sayin'.

What about an individual working for a heating and ac company. He has gone to a technical school in order to be qualified for the job and makes say $18/hour. How do you justify a $15 dollar wage for someone working as a cashier, gas station attendant, or any job not requiring further education above a HS diploma (and no I'm not putting those jobs down - I worked as a gas station attendant right after college before I got my "career" job)? What about a 4 year college degreed person who gets their first job but only makes $35,000 to start out. A 40 hour/wk at $15/hour, a person working minimum wage would make $31,200. So much for a college degree, huh? People go to college for a better job opportunity, not to barely make more than an unskilled laborer does.

All this plus what 95 said about how business would have to make moves to counter balance the increase labor costs. It was quite telling the U. of Washington said that people were taking home another $10 to $19 dollars more per week ($19 more/week for the more skilled workers). So seriously, you're more than doubling the minimum wage for just $10 to $19 dollars more per week - at $19/week, that just about 1,100/year). The problem was that people were working fewer hours, whether due to their desires or the business' needs.


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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:01 pm 
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I said I was no fan of Nixon.

Again though, you leave out LBJ’s MICH bigger role in that war. Kennedy wanted out. LBJ escalated it.

And did so KNOWING it was a losing cause. This has been captured on tape. Phone recordings of LBJ essentially recognizing very early in the war could not be won but wanted to save face because he couldn’t conceive how little brown boys wearing sandles could defeat the US military.

I never absolved Nixon of anything. He’s a piece of shit too for extending the war. I don’t need to look it up. I was already aware. But here you blame him for extending while it was his predecessor that escalated and put all those troops in there.

Nixon began reducing US troops in country shortly after taking office. He did however continue bombing the north and Ho Chi Minh trail. Something already being done under LBJ.

And yet to you Nixon is the bigger villain all because he has an “R” next to his name.

I’m not biased as to only call out Dems while giving Republicans a pass. Try it sometime.

And not only is LBJ responsible for countless deaths, he was a hugely racist fuck.

And to your point about Slick Willie, I’m no fan of the Clintons but he did in fact leave with the country’s balance sheet in tact. So credit is due there.

Let’s not forget though, your precious Hillary voted for Bush’s War too. So again, don’t let your political bias prevent you from calling out those on both sides of the isle.

I certainly have no problems doing that.

And you putting me on ignore is typical of leftist thinking. Kind of like colleges deathly afraid of a conservative speaking stepping foot on campus.

So much for free speech and opening ones mind to alternative points of view.


Last edited by 955876 on Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:06 pm 
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955876 wrote:
And you putting me on ignore is typical of leftist thinking.
I ignore you because you're a dumbass. Laying the wood left out two others in his list of people that support dumpster.

1. Willfully ignorant and/ or 2. intellectually weak.

I find you to be a combination of the two.

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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:11 pm 
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SteelPro wrote:
It would probably be better if min wage increases were automatic and pinned to some sort of inflation index. It would end much of the hassling over what amounts to setting it to an arbitrary level every so often.
I totally endorse this post.

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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:15 pm 
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You feel that way because we are polar opposites in terms of economics and politics.

And I call you out on your nonsense. I wouldn’t care for me either if I was you.

It would be better to just have a friendly debate but that’s not really on the table for your type.

Or those like Lemming That Whines errrr Laying the Wood.

Just look how he came in here and attacked without any provocation. Everyone else for the most part were trying to have a discussion.

Par for course. If you disagree shout everyone down and accuse of such things as racism.

So tired and typical.


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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:12 am 
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COR-TEN wrote:
I realize south and central american countries aren't exactly the bastion of clean governance. But you cannot compare a state that stole someone else's land through terrorism and violence, engages in apartheid, and gobbles up more land thumbing its nose at the UN and rest of the world to an asylum seeker from Guatemala. It's simply not the same thing. One is subsidizing a state, the other is helping an individual.

You do realize that the moment you live in a society, you abide by and must accept the rules of how the nation state spends the money. You take the good with the bad. You agree to pay your taxes, and it would be an impossibility for you to determine how or where it is spent for the greater good. And this is really the full circle discussion :

.


Re: the bolded. Why are you complaining so much that the US doesn't do enough "penance" then?

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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:00 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
...and it would be an impossibility for you to determine how or where it is spent for the greater good.


lol wut?

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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:21 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:30 pm 
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I vote we get rid of this thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:39 am 
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Will-the-Shake wrote:
I vote we get rid of this thread.


Yo don’t find this entertaining? It’s even got pictures, now.

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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:40 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:30 pm 
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955876 wrote:
Or those like Lemming That Whines errrr Laying the Wood.

Just look how he came in here and attacked without any provocation. Everyone else for the most part were trying to have a discussion.


Ok man, here is my best attempt at being civil and seeing things from your side.

You say that you are not prejudiced/racist/a bigot (covering my bases so Lit doesn't further dissect my statement!) and I'll take your word for that. But I think you have to acknowledge that a large part of your party's base now consists of racists, nationalists, and bigots. I am in no way saying that just because you support the same party/candidate that you agree with all of their beliefs. However, when those beliefs are condoned by your party's leader, either impliedly by not condemning them or affirmatively by publicly promoting them, they become part of your party's platform. And those who possess them are emboldened.

So that's when I think it becomes your responsibility to take a stand against racism, bigotry, and hatred and oust those people from your party. Instead, I feel like the Republican party at large has tacitly accepted their support and used it to promote a conservative agenda. Like I said before, not every Trump supporter is racist, but every Trump supporter thinks racism is not a deal breaker.

I think it's a sign that this country, and the world, are changing and moving away from traditional conservative values. More and more, it seems that liberal/progressive ideals are becoming the mainstream. Fewer and fewer people are identifying as prescribing to an organized religion. Many people accept and even embrace the LGBTQ community. America's melting pot is becoming decidedly less-white. I haven't even mentioned wealth inequality and global warming. More and more Americans are recognizing that those are very real threats to our society.

A lot of people, especially young people, are leaving the GOP. To remain politically competitive, the Republican party has had to accept and kowtow to a lot of people that it formerly denounced and despised. There's another "D" word I could use, but I don't want to trigger anyone (joking). I don't count you among those people and I can see how you would personalize an attack on them as an attack on yourself and your party. But that's even more of a reason to distance yourself from them and denounce their practices. There were not good people "on both sides" in Charlottesville.

I don't think this is a matter of us having polar opposite political views. I don't reject every notion of conservatism, and even on points where I disagree, I can understand a lot of conservative viewpoints. I would not be in this thread/having this discussion if Kacich had won the primary/general election. We might be arguing about tax cuts, but it would not have this tone. Ronald Reagan is/was your party's ideal, and while I disagreed with a lot of his policies, I believe he was a very decent person who merely had different political beliefs from my own. Can either of us say with a straight face that Trump is a decent person?

So that's where I'm coming from. Some things I think we can agree on... Bourbon and Cannabis, though my pancreas and my wife are really limiting my ability to consume them.

I know you like to debate and I am expecting a lengthy bullet-point response (you should draft presidential memos), but rather than trying to win the argument, I would implore you to ask yourself if anything I said hit home or made any sense. I'll get off my soapbox now.


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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:38 pm 
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Quote:
I know you like to debate and I am expecting a lengthy bullet-point response (you should draft presidential memos), but rather than trying to win the argument, I would implore you to ask yourself if anything I said hit home or made any sense.


Plenty of the stuff you said hit home and made sense. I'm certainly not as unreasonable as you likely perceive me to be or so deeply rooted in my opinion that I am unable to see other points of view. I appreciate your civil and respectful response and will provide some counter points. I really don't wish to argue this further so understand the counter points are not intended to be argumentative but rather to ideally help you understand another's point of view. Will make some comments to your points.

Quote:
You say that you are not prejudiced/racist/a bigot (covering my bases so Lit doesn't further dissect my statement!) and I'll take your word for that.



Well thank you. I've never said or have done anything on this board that would lead anyone to think I'm racist. I'm not. My wife is Hispanic. Her grandparents were immigrants from Mexico. Would be hard for me to "hate brown people" when the wife and I made a couple of them.

Quote:
So that's when I think it becomes your responsibility to take a stand against racism, bigotry, and hatred and oust those people from your party. Instead, I feel like the Republican party at large has tacitly accepted their support and used it to promote a conservative agenda. Like I said before, not every Trump supporter is racist, but every Trump supporter thinks racism is not a deal breaker.


There is racism, bigotry, and hatred from plenty within the Democratic party. I also don't quite buy that "every Trump supporter thinks racism is not a deal breaker". For example, the border thing has been made into a racial issue. To me it has nothing to do with race. To me it is an economic issue, a fairness issue, and a security issue. Same goes for the travel ban from high risk countries. Media portrayed it as a "muslim ban". How can that be when the countries with the largest muslim populations in the world were not on the list? A list that Obama stated the same exact things about in terms of not being able to vet the people traveling from those regions. Those are not racial issues yet made out to be and in part why the "Donald Trump is a racist" meme has gotten to some traction. Reality is that neither of us really know how her personally feels about people of color. The same can be said about Hillary. She has taken pictures with David Duke and is on record calling african americans "super predators" and yet no cries of her being a racist. There is a huge double standard out there.

Quote:
A lot of people, especially young people, are leaving the GOP.


Did they even make it in the first place? Have you noticed how polictally biased college campuses and those who teach there have become? If I was a 22 year old in college and had no other outside influence I'd likely be liberal as well. It is all kids of that age hear from their professors, administrators, and Katy Perry. Of course they mostly lean liberal. And that is fine. The shame is when a campus won't even allow a conservative speaker or club or a MAGA hat on campus without violence & intimidation. What average kid wants to get ostracized? Especially when most (unfortunately) could not even tell you the key differences from a policy standpoint that each party represents.

Ever see where a reporter will go on a college campus and ask a question such as “what did you think of Donald Trump’s State of the Union Speech”? The responses will typically be along the lines of “ummm it was just more of the same racist, misogynistic, hate filled rhetoric we’ve come to expect from Trump”. Then the reporter will say “well, the speech is actually tonight” and you get the blank stare.

That is today’s college student across many campuses. So I don’t hold their opinion on anything in very high regard.

Quote:
There were not good people "on both sides" in Charlottesville.


Lots of gray area here. I don't consider hood wearing, confederate flag waving white supremicist to be good people. But neither do I consider members of BLM to be good people when they pull old white men out of their vehicles and beat them for simply have a "Trump" bumper sticker. There is plenty of hate on both sides. Media only recognizes one side however. And when Trump made the comment about "good people on both sides" I certainly don't believe he was referring to the white supremicist in attendance. He denounced hate and racism in that speech as well. The media leaves that part out and singles in on the "good people on both sides" comment. Some were simply there in protest of the removal of historical statues. That doesn't mean they are racist or support racism. It simply means they feel this PC stuff has run amok. George Washington is held in high regard. George Washington was also a slave owner. I can agree that slavery is flat our wrong & immoral while at the same time not agreeing that George should be removed from the $1 bill and every statue of him removed. I'm sure you can agree that there were plenty of people in Charlottesville with that same type of thought process. Additionally, lets not forget Donald Trump is NOT a polished politician. He talks faster than he thinks at times and that gets him into trouble. This country is accustomed to our politicians running everything they say through focus groups first and that simply isn't Trump. So he said something that could been worded much better and given the fact he was but a few months into the job I allow for some slip ups of this sort. Again, I don't think by "good people" he was referring to the confederate flag waving contingent within the crowd.


Quote:
I don't think this is a matter of us having polar opposite political views. I don't reject every notion of conservatism, and even on points where I disagree, I can understand a lot of conservative viewpoints. I would not be in this thread/having this discussion if Kacich had won the primary/general election. We might be arguing about tax cuts, but it would not have this tone. Ronald Reagan is/was your party's ideal, and while I disagreed with a lot of his policies, I believe he was a very decent person who merely had different political beliefs from my own. Can either of us say with a straight face that Trump is a decent person?



And I don't reject every notion of liberalism. I also don't know Trump personally to know whether he is a decent person or not. I however have been following Hillary enough to form my own opinion that she is not a decent person. She is a person that has done far too many things I cannot support over the years (to which there is proof) that I am currently and forever will be a "never Hillary" person. So even with warts I would take Trump 100 out of 100 times vs. her. I would have taken any opposing candidate 100 out of 100 times vs. her.

I agree he has plenty of warts. I agree he has brought some of this on himself. I would hope that if you are truly being open minded you can recognize that some to a lot of it has been conjecture repeated over and over and over again to the point that everyone assumes he is all of these horrible things because that is all CNN and MSNBC make of him. And have done so since day 1. The are 100% against him and it reflects in their reporting as anything positive he does is ignored while everything else is not only magnified but often times exaggerated or manipulated to suit a narrative.

Yes this was long and bullet pointed but you took the time to type out a courteous response so I did as well. Hopefully you have a bit better understanding of my points of view. And if not, lets just agree to disagree at this point because I really don't need to "win" or "be right" or even change your mind.

I do like to argue however so if you come in and right off the bat hurl insults and bogus accusations then I tend to respond accordingly. Lets call truce and move on.

And the bar downstairs from my office just started serving Blanton's Bourbon. I hadn't had it before. Good stuff. Try it if you get a chance...


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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:58 am 
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