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 Post subject: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:02 pm 
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This is the most talked about item on the agenda. Please no party line bs - just give your honest opinion with some possible reasons.

Me: I say build the wall!

Reasons: Our country spends over $100 billion annually (estimates vary) supporting illegal immigrants when veterans are sleeping on the streets. Hell, they even get tax returns after paying nothing into the government to begin with. My parents pay high medical deductibles and prescriptions even though they worked all of their life, yet illegals get free medical. They burn the American flag when they are stopped from just walking right in all the while proudly waving their countries flag. If their country was so damn good, why leave. Fairness? How is it fair they walk right in when people from Europe and other countries over seas have to go through the proper procedures to get a visa? Many Dems are on record (both Shumer and Pelosi) are on record as far back as 2008 saying tighter border security and the need for a wall (they passed the Border Security Act of 2006 to pay for the construction of a wall but who knows where the funds went). Drugs, drugs, drugs!!! Those are some of my reasons. There are more, but those are the biggies for me.


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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:19 pm 
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alancac98 wrote:
This is the most talked about item on the agenda. Please no party line bs - just give your honest opinion with some possible reasons.

Me: I say build the wall!

Reasons: Our country spends over $100 billion annually (estimates vary) supporting illegal immigrants when veterans are sleeping on the streets. Hell, they even get tax returns after paying nothing into the government to begin with. My parents pay high medical deductibles and prescriptions even though they worked all of their life, yet illegals get free medical. They burn the American flag when they are stopped from just walking right in all the while proudly waving their countries flag. If their country was so damn good, why leave. Fairness? How is it fair they walk right in when people from Europe and other countries over seas have to go through the proper procedures to get a visa? Many Dems are on record (both Shumer and Pelosi) are on record as far back as 2008 saying tighter border security and the need for a wall (they passed the Border Security Act of 2006 to pay for the construction of a wall but who knows where the funds went). Drugs, drugs, drugs!!! Those are some of my reasons. There are more, but those are the biggies for me.



good post I agree..

Without a strong border you have no country.. Walls will not work for the entire southern border but where you cant build walls you have border patrol outposts and continue with the Drones and camera systems.. and FASCAM where you cant get anything else..(Joke of course for all you non military types) It does piss me off that some illegals get more $ tax free per month than I do for my 21 years of military service.. not to mention I still have to pay for some of my medical per year.. yet a free ride is given to those that have given NOTHING.


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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:55 pm 
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What I want is for tax dollars to be allocated according to evidence-based studies, not campaign memes and assumptions. Is a wall the most efficient use of tax dollars for border security enforcement or is it a stupid campaign meme?

Another concern: big cats and other wildlife could be severely endangered by a wall. Wolves and some big cats are already endangered and not being able to migrate across due to a border will harm them further. I would hope that hunters, who are by and large lovers of nature, would be very upset by that. It would have serious environmental consequences for wildlife.

This thread has as much chance of not becoming political as the earth does of ceasing to spin on its axis at midnight.

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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:03 pm 
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How's this for an idea: Have a coherent immigration policy and stick with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:11 pm 
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Seriously?

Your asking about immigration policy and medieval walls on a steelers football forum?

Excuse me sir, but this invites partisan politics.

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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:56 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
Seriously?

Your asking about immigration policy and medieval walls on a steelers football forum?

Excuse me sir, but this invites partisan politics.


Well, it's as good to talk about as AB or Bell! And no, I don't think every discussion involving the people in America needs to be discussed only through party lines. Seriously, how about just thinking about what is right or wrong and express your view and give a reason as to why you feel that way. Not everything has to be Dem vs Rep! Honestly, I have been a registered Democrat for 30+ years, but there have and will always be times I will side with the Republicans view, this being one. Hell, if all you do is believe along party lines, then I guess you should be in a nursing home if you need spoon fed that badly that you honestly can't critique a position and have your own viewpoint.

I guess you are against a wall. Please tell me why - I'm willing to listen and you may even change my mind. I just haven't heard any good reasons against yet.


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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:01 pm 
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What is the evidence that border security is best spent on a wall? Read my post above.

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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:51 pm 
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Quote:
medieval walls


They say if you keep an open mind you can learn something new everyday.

Today for instance, I learned that medieval times actually ended on November 8, 2016. Prior to that date, walls were not considered to be “medieval” nor “inhumane”.

Evidenced by the fact that many of the most outspoken opponents of said wall were but a few short years ago supporters of it. So one must conclude the reason being was that pre 11/8/2016 we were still in medieval times so those in question simply couldn’t recognize the error in their thinking.

Now that medieval times have officially ended it makes sense for them flip flop and have a completely different opinion on the matter.

And here I thought medieval times ended sometime back in the 1400s.


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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:51 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
What is the evidence that border security is best spent on a wall? Read my post above.


It may not be the best alternative. All I know is that a wall, once built, can stand for a long time so the cost can be spread over the coarse of 100 years possibly. I have no idea how much it would cost to hire more agents, buy more drones, add more cameras and such in comparison to how each option would help acheive the objectives to secure the border. Unfortunately for us, we will never know if and when feasibility studies have been performed and what conclusions were made from them. It would be interesting to see cost studies for the next 100 years on each. Trump say 5.7 mill for a wall that can stand for 50-100 years. Haven't seen any figures on alternatives over that span. Also, the comparison of effectiveness would be great to see as well! Border agents say wall! I tend to lean toward those that are much more involved than I am. If other alternatives come with a smaller price tag and are every bit as effective, then that option works for me as well! I just haven't seen other alternatives.


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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:53 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
What is the evidence that border security is best spent on a wall? Read my post above.


I’m a fan of increased immigration judges and attorneys (paid for by the American taxpayer) to solve the problem.

No reason to treat the cause. Better to spend countless $$$$ forever treating the symptoms.

Over and over and over and over again.

That’s money well spent.


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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:20 pm 
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955876 wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
What is the evidence that border security is best spent on a wall? Read my post above.


I’m a fan of increased immigration judges and attorneys (paid for by the American taxpayer) to solve the problem.

No reason to treat the cause. Better to spend countless $$$$ forever treating the symptoms.

Over and over and over and over again.

That’s money well spent.


Read my post. We’re talking about border security, not immigration arbitration. Unless you’re so stupid you think a wall is the only kind of security that exists.

So, i’ll ask again: is the wall a campaign meme or the result of evidence based assessment of best security practices?

Your partisanship is robbing you of reading comprehension.

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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:39 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
955876 wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
What is the evidence that border security is best spent on a wall? Read my post above.


I’m a fan of increased immigration judges and attorneys (paid for by the American taxpayer) to solve the problem.

No reason to treat the cause. Better to spend countless $$$$ forever treating the symptoms.

Over and over and over and over again.

That’s money well spent.


Read my post. We’re talking about border security, not immigration arbitration. Unless you’re so stupid you think a wall is the only kind of security that exists.

So, i’ll ask again: is the wall a campaign meme or the result of evidence based assessment of best security practices?

Your partisanship is robbing you of reading comprehension.


I would say that when Border Agents say build the wall, I would lean toward that as more evidence based. No way in hell can I tell them they need x when they want y. It would be like telling a firefighter that because the new trucks and hoses are more efficient at putting fires out, they no longer need fire retardant suits! No one knows better than those that do the job!!! Alternatives?


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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:52 pm 
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Still Lit, your question about animals and their migration movements is also a valid argument. Research and personal experience tells me that the animals will adjust just fine. It has happened with the Bison, antelope, mule deer, whitetail deer and many more species over the last 100 years. If by chance their are specific area where known migration occurs, then adjustments can be made where no wall is built to allow the migration. Another system would need to be employed in that area. However, given the range of mountain lions, the loss of migration across the border would not harm them as they would expand their range to other areas. Look at it this way, people are always intruding on the whitetail deer territory by buying lands and building houses, yet they adapt rather well. I don't think any species migrates by the hundreds of thousands across our southern border that would necessitate an alternative method.


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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:56 pm 
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There’s already a lot of wall.

Here’s the real kicker. The BP has no firm idea what matrix of security measures will best secure the border. They themselves have not carried out the necessary studies to determine it!

Read this (and note the date, it’s a Trump admin era study):
https://www.gao.gov/mobile/products/GAO-18-397T

So no. Just bc patrol agents ask for it is not proof it is best practice.

All I ask of my govt is that it spend money according to what has actually been studied.

And I am a leftist pussy that is concerned about what more wall will do to animal migration.

A lot of scientists are very worried about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:08 pm 
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[url][https://www.ibtimes.com/trumps-mexico-border-wall-alternative-surveillance-methods-countries-using-them-2481587url]

Are some of these technologies a better fit. The article says that integrated fixed towers would cost $145 million. That's one hell of a deal! I would love to see how effective the system is or could be, as well as, all of the other expenses associated with the program. Also like the seismic detection system to find tunneling operations. There are a lot of ideas, just gotta read up. My point is, though, those who oppose the construction of the wall are offering no specifics of any alternative, but say "trust us - there's a better way!" Pelosi and Schumer have both for multiple measures of building a wall in the past. Other than political positioning, why not now?


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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:33 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
955876 wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
What is the evidence that border security is best spent on a wall? Read my post above.


I’m a fan of increased immigration judges and attorneys (paid for by the American taxpayer) to solve the problem.

No reason to treat the cause. Better to spend countless $$$$ forever treating the symptoms.

Over and over and over and over again.

That’s money well spent.


Read my post. We’re talking about border security, not immigration arbitration. Unless you’re so stupid you think a wall is the only kind of security that exists.

So, i’ll ask again: is the wall a campaign meme or the result of evidence based assessment of best security practices?

Your partisanship is robbing you of reading comprehension.


And I think a bad day in the English department is robbing you of the ability to decipher the nuance of my post.

I most certainly don’t think a wall is the only type of security. Duh.

My post was in reference to those such as Pelosi and Schumer that have countered the border wall argument with the novel idea of providing more judges and attorneys as a “solution”.

So while we talk about how to solve the border security issue the prominent Dems toss out ridiculous ideas such as more judges and lawyers. All at the taxpayer expense mind you.

None of which does a single thing to prevent illegal access. Instead we get the pleasure of providing legal services to any and all that can step foot on American soil.

I read your post. You asked where is the evidence that supports a wall is the best option. I’ll counter and say we already have plenty of evidence to support what happens without one. And it’s easy to project a future without one as well.

I was (sarcastically) replaying in manner that pointed out (clearly) that more judges & attorneys is nothing more than a faux fix. It’ll do nothing to beef up border security. Was trying to do so as a joke by bringing up judges because that just so happens to be the Dem leaderships idea of how we should spend money on border “security”.

More attorneys for the people of the world. Paid for by you and I. Brilliant.

It really comes down to (elementary) common sense. A wall, more security, drones, actually enforcing the laws as opposed to catch & release are all viable solutions to be used in conjunction with one another.

Drones without a wall or lack of enforcement does nothing but cost the taxpayers more money for a pretty video of people crossing illegally.

Put a big wall around your house. Is it easier or more difficult to get inside? This nonsense a wall “doesn’t work” is but nonsense.


Last edited by 955876 on Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:14 pm 
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And to your point Lit about what it could do to the wildlife in there area, I don’t know. I don’t know what it would do and I’m sure some scientist could rather easily do a study to show some dessert weavel will be impacted by a wall.

To be frank, when you talk animals you are hitting a soft spot with me. I love animals. One thing that bothers me most in life is animal cruelty or animals suffering needlessly.

I giggle in gleeful joy when I read an article in the morning that tells me a bunch of poachers were found dead. Eaten alive by a pride of lions. Obviously set up camp in the wrong place and obvious (to military folk or just a non-dumbass) they failed to establish a watch schedule.

You never ever ever not have someone awake in the bush. But good for the lions that night their adversary was a bunch of lazy fucks.

Anyways. I love anilmals. It would genuinely bother me if there was an adverse impact on them.

At the same time, we as a race are doing FAR more damage to the animal community of the world in a FAR greater number of ways than to micro focus on what sticking a wall in some areas along our southern border will do. I’m all for bettering animal life. Many places we can start and actually have an impact before spending years analyzing what a wall does to them there.

The consequences of not doing so is really to great. What if we just start letting in caravans of 10,000, 20,000, 100,000?? All on “asylum” status which is the gold card of migrant benefits.

That policy can not sustain itself and it’s foolish to think that larger and larger groups won’t challenge our border.

And as soon as we allow in one big caravan another will be right behind it.

Someone explain the economic viability of that program. I’ll eagerly await a response to that one.

A wall shuts much of that down. Along with many otter measures that can be taken.

I work with a man that’s done extensive studies on Israel and teaches classes on the thre subject. Been there countless times and is going back next month. He knows a thing or two about what their wall has done.

I’m not sure what impact their wall had in the creatures in the area. Hopefully minimal because again, that’s my soft spot.

I was a tearful wreck after having to sit through March of the Penguins.


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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:13 am 
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Quote:
Read my post. We’re talking about border security, not illegal immigration arbitration.


Fixed it for you. They are in fact two entirely different things.

Many seem to be unable to make that distinction.


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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:00 am 
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No, you rushed to make a snarky post and in doing so posted something stupid. There was no nuance. Instead of admitting it, you decided to post a novella to defend your stupidity. If you don’t want to get a called a dumb fk, don’t be a dumb fk.

I have no problem with securing the borders. I just want it to be based on evidence of effectiveness. I also, lacking your immense wisdom in all matters, do not presume to know what matrix of defenses would work best and would appreciate an honest discussion about the advantages and disadvantages of the various tools at our disposal.

Grow up.

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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:44 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
There’s already a lot of wall.

Here’s the real kicker. The BP has no firm idea what matrix of security measures will best secure the border. They themselves have not carried out the necessary studies to determine it!

Read this (and note the date, it’s a Trump admin era study):
https://www.gao.gov/mobile/products/GAO-18-397T

So no. Just bc patrol agents ask for it is not proof it is best practice.

All I ask of my govt is that it spend money according to what has actually been studied.

And I am a leftist pussy that is concerned about what more wall will do to animal migration.

A lot of scientists are very worried about it.


Simple question. Why are we this far down the path and still no comprehensive study or consensus? Border security is at the forefront and we can either credit or blame (depending on your views) Trump for that. But this isn’t the first time Border security issues have been raised. And obviously there are some border security issues that have been ongoing for a long time. Personally, I don’t think either side wants to solve it. They just want to play political football with the issue when it is most advantageous to them.

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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:22 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
There’s already a lot of wall.

Here’s the real kicker. The BP has no firm idea what matrix of security measures will best secure the border. They themselves have not carried out the necessary studies to determine it!

Read this (and note the date, it’s a Trump admin era study):
https://www.gao.gov/mobile/products/GAO-18-397T

So no. Just bc patrol agents ask for it is not proof it is best practice.

All I ask of my govt is that it spend money according to what has actually been studied.

And I am a leftist pussy that is concerned about what more wall will do to animal migration.

A lot of scientists are very worried about it.


You worry about the price tag of a wall vs other alternatives, how effective it will be, and the animals it may effect - all valid points. As far as price tag goes 5.7 mill. is still a lot smaller than 100+ mill that we spend every year on illegal immigrants for food, housing, medical, and schooling. As a middle class American, it pisses me off that I have to shell out a small fortune and that my kids have to mortgage their futures with student loans in order to go to college, yet illegal immigrant's kids go to college for free! Think about that. It pisses me off that older Americans shell out money after working their asses off to build this country, yet illegals get everything free, including the kitchen sink (literally w/ free housing). It pisses me off that our American soldiers come home from serving their country only to have horrible healthcare and be kicked to the curb (literally in many cases as well). So, I guess I really don't care about best practice as the govt. is busy spending huge amounts of money to care for people who aren't even American taxpayers!

If there are better alternatives, then sure. I think the best practice is going to be a combination of several strategies, including a wall. You will still need men on the ground, cameras, drones, and seismic equipment in order to do the job most effectively - to me that just makes common sense, so one thing is not going to do the job all by itself. So start by building the wall and add the necessary pieces to it. Oh, and scientist are always worried about this and that. Animals will be fine - the American Bison has adapted rather well.


Edit: Sorry about the rant. It was more on illegal immigration than the wall specifically, but there is a connection between the two undoubtedly. Just a week ago, a huge fentenal (sp?) shipment was intercepted in a truck loaded with cucumbers. At this port of entry, it is said that 1500 trucks cross each and every day. Kudos to the dog that sniffed it all out!


Last edited by alancac98 on Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:30 am 
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SteelPro wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
There’s already a lot of wall.

Here’s the real kicker. The BP has no firm idea what matrix of security measures will best secure the border. They themselves have not carried out the necessary studies to determine it!

Read this (and note the date, it’s a Trump admin era study):
https://www.gao.gov/mobile/products/GAO-18-397T

So no. Just bc patrol agents ask for it is not proof it is best practice.

All I ask of my govt is that it spend money according to what has actually been studied.

And I am a leftist pussy that is concerned about what more wall will do to animal migration.

A lot of scientists are very worried about it.


Simple question. Why are we this far down the path and still no comprehensive study or consensus? Border security is at the forefront and we can either credit or blame (depending on your views) Trump for that. But this isn’t the first time Border security issues have been raised. And obviously there are some border security issues that have been ongoing for a long time. Personally, I don’t think either side wants to solve it. They just want to play political football with the issue when it is most advantageous to them.


No idea.

I was pretty taken aback by that Govt Office of Accountability report I linked to. Why in the world Customs and BP have not bothered to undertake the necessary studies to better inform Congress what it should be funding with respect to security measures seems weird. But maybe the study I linked to lacks context and I misunderstand it.

Dems have voted for walls in some spots does not *necessarily* make them hypocrites for not voting for walls in other spots. I'm no expert AT ALL, but one could imagine that a wall of a particular sort might be appropriate in some locations, but not others. And *some* Dems do seem interested in funding security, but not a wall.

The public is not well served by stupid campaign memes (goes for both sides). Politicians should be educating the public via honest debate about studies. It needs to be wonkish. But wonk does not win campaigns.

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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:38 am 
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alancac98 wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
There’s already a lot of wall.

Here’s the real kicker. The BP has no firm idea what matrix of security measures will best secure the border. They themselves have not carried out the necessary studies to determine it!

Read this (and note the date, it’s a Trump admin era study):
https://www.gao.gov/mobile/products/GAO-18-397T

So no. Just bc patrol agents ask for it is not proof it is best practice.

All I ask of my govt is that it spend money according to what has actually been studied.

And I am a leftist pussy that is concerned about what more wall will do to animal migration.

A lot of scientists are very worried about it.


You worry about the price tag of a wall vs other alternatives, how effective it will be, and the animals it may effect - all valid points. As far as price tag goes 5.7 mill. is still a lot smaller than 100+ mill that we spend every year on illegal immigrants for food, housing, medical, and schooling. As a middle class American, it pisses me off that I have to shell out a small fortune and that my kids have to mortgage their futures with student loans in order to go to college, yet illegal immigrant's kids go to college for free! Think about that. It pisses me off that older Americans shell out money after working their asses off to build this country, yet illegals get everything free, including the kitchen sink (literally w/ free housing). It pisses me off that our American soldiers come home from serving their country only to have horrible healthcare and be kicked to the curb (literally in many cases as well). So, I guess I really don't care about best practice as the govt. is busy spending huge amounts of money to care for people who aren't even American taxpayers!

If there are better alternatives, then sure. I think the best practice is going to be a combination of several strategies, including a wall. You will still need men on the ground, cameras, drones, and seismic equipment in order to do the job most effectively - to me that just makes common sense, so one thing is not going to do the job all by itself. So start by building the wall and add the necessary pieces to it. Oh, and scientist are always worried about this and that. Animals will be fine - the American Bison has adapted rather well.


To be clear, I am not worried about price tags. Just worried about whether security funding being asked for is based on studies of best instruments and practices or whether it is based on a campaign meme.

And I am concerned about wolves, big cats, etc. Humans by and large are assholes and are fucking and multiplying at a pretty good clip. Wolves and big cats not so much.

Do want this tread to be about the ills of illegal immigrants or whether we should have a wall?

Please do not be offended, but because you are not an expert in animal migration and ecology, I can't take your opinion seriously on the idea that big cats and wolves will "be just fine." American Bison do not migrate across the Mexican border. And my concern does not mean that no more wall should be built either. But shouldn't we at least consult the scientists that study animal patters to see about how and where building more wall would affect these animals.

Again: we need an honest debate about the advantages and disadvantages of ALL the tools available at our disposal. That is not happening and so the public is not at all being well served.

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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:40 am 
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Pabst wrote:
How's this for an idea: Have a coherent immigration policy and stick with it.


Oh, and this wins the thread. Lock it down.

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Orangesteel wrote:
We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


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 Post subject: Re: Wall or No wall?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:57 am 
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From another angle, if any of you are nature lovers or like to visit National Parks, and a wall is built through Big Bend N.P. I suggest you get there and visit before such a wall is built.
A wall through the lower third of the park would ruin that part of the park. Sadly, that is where it is easy to cross even though there is lots of visible and hidden border patrols in, around and outside the park.

The place is so beautiful.

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