It is currently Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:32 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Jordon's Bulls
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 12:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:47 am
Posts: 4587
As you requested, COR-TEN...

COR-TEN wrote:
Michael Jordan had a bunch of nobodies for team mates and the Bulls dominated. The only other player on that team worth anything was Scottie Pippin. Dennis Rodman worked the rebound thing, but mostly they had role players that did their job. And those players were average at best. They also had Phil Jackson as coach, and the triangle offense built to showcase Jordan and his abilities.

So the Pats have Brady and one other elite player in Gronkowski. They have a coach, as much as we despise him, that is in fact brain smart, and creates a simple game plans that uses the abilities of the role players to showcase the premier player, with basic game management/ philosophical principles at the forefront. Kinda like Jackson.

I think I threw up a bit in my mouth when typing this...


This is not a good talent assessment of Jordon's Bulls.

You win NBA championships with different kinds of parts that fit together in a way that works. If that is what you are trying to say, then I agree with that.

Phil Jackson never won a title when he didn't have the best collection of talent (or at least one of the best).

Jordon played with a HOFer in his prime during the first 3 titles.

Jordon played with 2 HOFer's during the second 3 titles with one of them in his prime and the other still playing at a high level.

Cartwright and Armstrong both made an all star team.

After winning the first 3 titles, the Bulls won 55 games the next season without Jordon.

_________________
14 yds Ben to JuJu/12 yds Ben to JuJu/23 yds Ben to JuJu/17 yds Ben to AB/Inc/12 yds Ben to AB/13 yds Ben to Switz//Inc/Inc/TD 3 yds Ben to AB/26 yds Ben to AB/20 yds Ben to JuJu/Inc/TD 20 yds Ben to AB

Up by 4, pull the plug. Fire Mike Tomlin.


Last edited by Havoc on Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:22 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jordon's Bulls
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 12:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:08 pm
Posts: 7016
Well, yes. Different parts that fit together. Role players that know their role; carry out their assignments.

But a key component, which I was suggesting works with Marsha and Gronk, is an elite, once a generation player with another above average player surrounded by role players.

Which HoF players are you referring to?

_________________
"I wish Fraudlin would get testicular cancer and die after he watches me anally penetrate his wife."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jordon's Bulls
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 12:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:47 am
Posts: 4587
Pippen and Rodman.

_________________
14 yds Ben to JuJu/12 yds Ben to JuJu/23 yds Ben to JuJu/17 yds Ben to AB/Inc/12 yds Ben to AB/13 yds Ben to Switz//Inc/Inc/TD 3 yds Ben to AB/26 yds Ben to AB/20 yds Ben to JuJu/Inc/TD 20 yds Ben to AB

Up by 4, pull the plug. Fire Mike Tomlin.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jordon's Bulls
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 12:55 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:08 pm
Posts: 7016
Like I said, Pippen is equal to Gronk. What other players would have won titles with another team? Without Pippin and Jordon?

Is Rodman in the HoF? I don't discount his contributions, but any decent rebounder would have done the job. Or a decent center, of which the bulls had none. Just guys that did their job and run picks for Jordan or Pippin; clear space to generate a one on one with MJ.

Who's the 3 pointer guy? Steve Kerr?

_________________
"I wish Fraudlin would get testicular cancer and die after he watches me anally penetrate his wife."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jordon's Bulls
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:47 am
Posts: 4587
Yes, Rodman is in the HOF and not because he was "decent".

Some teams win titles with only 1 HOF player in his prime. Having 2 is pretty average for a championship team. The key being still in his prime or still playing at a high level. I can think of at least 1 team that won the title without any HOFers on the team.

You don't win 6 titles without a serious collection of talent.

When Dennis Rodman was on the floor, his team almost always had the best rebounder on the floor. 7x rebounding champion. This is an advantage. He was also a fierce defender. 2x nba defensive player of the year. The guy has a long list of accolades.

Jordon and Pippen together were a dominant force. Pippen was the perfect non center robin player to Jordon's batman.

The combo of Jordon, Pippen, and Rodman on the floor together was a dominant force. They fit together perfectly.

_________________
14 yds Ben to JuJu/12 yds Ben to JuJu/23 yds Ben to JuJu/17 yds Ben to AB/Inc/12 yds Ben to AB/13 yds Ben to Switz//Inc/Inc/TD 3 yds Ben to AB/26 yds Ben to AB/20 yds Ben to JuJu/Inc/TD 20 yds Ben to AB

Up by 4, pull the plug. Fire Mike Tomlin.


Last edited by Havoc on Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jordon's Bulls
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 2:22 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:08 pm
Posts: 7016
Rodman was with the Bulls for three years. That's it. How many titles do the Bulls have? Six. Rodman was also pretty good for the pistons, so his HoF career isn't just the years he spent with the Bulls.

I'm not trying to downplay Rodman contributions. Like I said, I just think the 2 outstanding + average players (also coming off the bench) was the philosophy and structure that Jackson employed. Look at Miami with LeBron James and Dwyane Wade. LA with Kobe an Shaq. I don't consider Chris Bosh a HoF player.

Granted, I don't watch as much B-ball as I used to, but it's obvious the Bulls were able to win without Rodman.

_________________
"I wish Fraudlin would get testicular cancer and die after he watches me anally penetrate his wife."


Last edited by COR-TEN on Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jordon's Bulls
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:02 pm
Posts: 2345
COR-TEN wrote:
Michael Jordan had a bunch of nobodies for team mates and the Bulls dominated. The only other player on that team worth anything was Scottie Pippin. Dennis Rodman worked the rebound thing, but mostly they had role players that did their job. And those players were average at best. They also had Phil Jackson as coach, and the triangle offense built to showcase Jordan and his abilities.


I wouldn't say nobodies. Bill Cartwright was a former 1st rd pick taken 3rd by the Knicks who avg 16 and 7 in his 8 years in NY prior to coming to Chicago. Horace Grant was a dependable PF who could hit that FT line extended jumper. Paxson and Hodges were snipers from 3. Hodges himself won the 3pt shootout 3 straight years. BJ Armstrong was another good three point shooter who made an all-star game in 94'. The second 3-peat featured future HOF Dennis Rodman who was picked up because Chicago had a huge hole at PF following Ho Grant's departure to Orlando. Also had the very versatile Toni Kukoc who was a Euro league Champion/Fiba World Championship MVP and won 6th man of year in 96' among other various accomplishments. Also had 3pt marksman Steve Kerr and big bodies in Luc Longley/Bill Wennighton. In 97' made a great pick up in obtaining the late Brian Williams(Bison Dele)to give them minutes off the bench. Almost forgot about Ron Harper who prior to coming to Chicago(even with that bad knee injury) was a 19/4/5 player for the Cavs/Clippers


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jordon's Bulls
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:08 pm
Posts: 7016
steelcity512 wrote:
COR-TEN wrote:
Michael Jordan had a bunch of nobodies for team mates and the Bulls dominated. The only other player on that team worth anything was Scottie Pippin. Dennis Rodman worked the rebound thing, but mostly they had role players that did their job. And those players were average at best. They also had Phil Jackson as coach, and the triangle offense built to showcase Jordan and his abilities.


I wouldn't say nobodies. Bill Cartwright was a former 1st rd pick taken 3rd by the Knicks who avg 16 and 7 in his 8 years in NY prior to coming to Chicago. Horace Grant was a dependable PF who could hit that FT line extended jumper. Paxson and Hodges were snipers from 3. Hodges himself won the 3pt shootout 3 straight years. BJ Armstrong was another good three point shooter who made an all-star game in 94'. The second 3-peat featured future HOF Dennis Rodman who was picked up because Chicago had a huge hole at PF following Ho Grant's departure to Orlando. Also had the very versatile Toni Kukoc who was a Euro league Champion/Fiba World Championship MVP and won 6th man of year in 96' among other various accomplishments. Also had 3pt marksman Steve Kerr and big bodies in Luc Longley/Bill Wennighton. In 97' made a great pick up in obtaining the late Brian Williams(Bison Dele)to give them minutes off the bench. Almost forgot about Ron Harper who prior to coming to Chicago(even with that bad knee injury) was a 19/4/5 player for the Cavs/Clippers


Ok. I exaggerate when I say nobodies. They played in the NBA, so that says a lot. Thanks for pointing that out. I remember those guys and they also came through in the clutch. But a lot of NBA players do. I'm not an NBA statistician, but I'm sure a lot of what those guys did was because they had those superstars as the engine that won all those titles.

I still stand behind the 2 superstars with role players wins championships.

_________________
"I wish Fraudlin would get testicular cancer and die after he watches me anally penetrate his wife."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jordon's Bulls
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:47 am
Posts: 4587
The nba is littered with teams that had a 1 or 2 HOFers in their prime but did not win the title because the role players were not good enough.

Role players on nba championship teams aren't there to merely showcase the superstars. The role players contribute to winning while often doing things the superstar is not capable of doing.

_________________
14 yds Ben to JuJu/12 yds Ben to JuJu/23 yds Ben to JuJu/17 yds Ben to AB/Inc/12 yds Ben to AB/13 yds Ben to Switz//Inc/Inc/TD 3 yds Ben to AB/26 yds Ben to AB/20 yds Ben to JuJu/Inc/TD 20 yds Ben to AB

Up by 4, pull the plug. Fire Mike Tomlin.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jordon's Bulls
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:47 am
Posts: 4587
Jackson is named HC of the Bulls. Jackson calls MJ into his office.

Jackson, "The problem with the team is that everything is centered around you".

MJ, "You aren't going to run an equal opportunity offense, are you"?

Jackson, "Yeah, I am"

NBA finals Bulls vs Lakers during a huddle...

Jackson, "Who's open"?

MJ, "Paxson's open".

Jackson, "I want Paxson to get the ball".

(I've seen this huddle in a documentary. It's very cool.) I tried unsuccessfully to find it.

I did find this though which includes both of the above...


_________________
14 yds Ben to JuJu/12 yds Ben to JuJu/23 yds Ben to JuJu/17 yds Ben to AB/Inc/12 yds Ben to AB/13 yds Ben to Switz//Inc/Inc/TD 3 yds Ben to AB/26 yds Ben to AB/20 yds Ben to JuJu/Inc/TD 20 yds Ben to AB

Up by 4, pull the plug. Fire Mike Tomlin.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jordon's Bulls
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:24 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:47 am
Posts: 4587
COR-TEN wrote:
steelcity512 wrote:
COR-TEN wrote:
Michael Jordan had a bunch of nobodies for team mates and the Bulls dominated. The only other player on that team worth anything was Scottie Pippin. Dennis Rodman worked the rebound thing, but mostly they had role players that did their job. And those players were average at best. They also had Phil Jackson as coach, and the triangle offense built to showcase Jordan and his abilities.


I wouldn't say nobodies. Bill Cartwright was a former 1st rd pick taken 3rd by the Knicks who avg 16 and 7 in his 8 years in NY prior to coming to Chicago. Horace Grant was a dependable PF who could hit that FT line extended jumper. Paxson and Hodges were snipers from 3. Hodges himself won the 3pt shootout 3 straight years. BJ Armstrong was another good three point shooter who made an all-star game in 94'. The second 3-peat featured future HOF Dennis Rodman who was picked up because Chicago had a huge hole at PF following Ho Grant's departure to Orlando. Also had the very versatile Toni Kukoc who was a Euro league Champion/Fiba World Championship MVP and won 6th man of year in 96' among other various accomplishments. Also had 3pt marksman Steve Kerr and big bodies in Luc Longley/Bill Wennighton. In 97' made a great pick up in obtaining the late Brian Williams(Bison Dele)to give them minutes off the bench. Almost forgot about Ron Harper who prior to coming to Chicago(even with that bad knee injury) was a 19/4/5 player for the Cavs/Clippers


Ok. I exaggerate when I say nobodies. They played in the NBA, so that says a lot. Thanks for pointing that out. I remember those guys and they also came through in the clutch. But a lot of NBA players do. I'm not an NBA statistician, but I'm sure a lot of what those guys did was because they had those superstars as the engine that won all those titles.

I still stand behind the 2 superstars with role players wins championships.


And a lot of what Jordon and Pippen accomplished in terms of rings is because of what the other players did.

Like I said, nba history is littered with teams that had 1 or 2 HOFers that did not win the title because the other players were not good enough.

The nba post season is about teams.

_________________
14 yds Ben to JuJu/12 yds Ben to JuJu/23 yds Ben to JuJu/17 yds Ben to AB/Inc/12 yds Ben to AB/13 yds Ben to Switz//Inc/Inc/TD 3 yds Ben to AB/26 yds Ben to AB/20 yds Ben to JuJu/Inc/TD 20 yds Ben to AB

Up by 4, pull the plug. Fire Mike Tomlin.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jordon's Bulls
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:49 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:08 pm
Posts: 7016
I posit that role players that do not carry out their assignments also have an effect on the whole. Coaching does as well. Teams with 1-2 superstars that don't win championships usually rest with role players that aren't doing their job. The whole point with the Bulls was that they had a system, a coach to make sure the system works, A couple of superstars, and role players were shuttled in and out over the course of six years.

I do agree, however, that team chemistry is important. Jackson was/ is very good at assembling players that clicked with each other - both talent wise and personalities.

Can we name other teams in sports where they have/ had a couple of superstars and role players that didn't win championships?

_________________
"I wish Fraudlin would get testicular cancer and die after he watches me anally penetrate his wife."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jordon's Bulls
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:47 am
Posts: 4587
Magic - Kareem - Worthy Lakers failed to win the title some of the years they were together.

Bird - McHale - Parish Celtics failed to win the title some of the years they were together.

Lebron - Wade - Heat failed half of the years they were together.

Kobe - Shaq Lakers did not win the title every year they were together.

The Spurs have had an amazing run winning 5 titles but most years during that run they failed.

There is no cookie cutter formula for winning an nba title. The Mavericks won it with 1 superstar. So did Kobe's Lakers without Shaq. The 2004 Pistons had none.

_________________
14 yds Ben to JuJu/12 yds Ben to JuJu/23 yds Ben to JuJu/17 yds Ben to AB/Inc/12 yds Ben to AB/13 yds Ben to Switz//Inc/Inc/TD 3 yds Ben to AB/26 yds Ben to AB/20 yds Ben to JuJu/Inc/TD 20 yds Ben to AB

Up by 4, pull the plug. Fire Mike Tomlin.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jordon's Bulls
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 3:23 pm
Posts: 1050
But the teams you mentioned at least did win championships

Think about that Jazz team with Stockton/Malone. Absolute choke artists on the biggest stage.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jordon's Bulls
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:01 am
Posts: 12608
Those Bulls teams were very talented and deep....that said, they also benefited from a time in the NBA where most of the other teams were having a lot of turnover. They would add some pieces, but always had a strong core that had been playing together for several years. The advantage the Bulls had in chemistry over most teams was obvious and decisive.

Go back a decade before Chicago won their first of six titles:
Lakers: 5-4 (including losing in Chicago's first title)
Celts: 3-2
Pistons: 2-1 (would have been a three-peat except for injuries in their first finals with LA).

3 of the 6 losses above came to one of the other two teams (and a 4th to the Bulls). And the Celts knocked off Detroit 2 or 3 times (as Detroit did to Chicago twice before they went on their run).

How many titles do those Laker or Celt teams win in the mid-to-late 90's? I'd say at least 6. Pistons probably 4 since they weren't as good/together as long as those team's cores.

If Jordan and those Bulls come along in the 80's, I think they win 3, maybe 4 titles.

_________________
------------------------------------------------------


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jordon's Bulls
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:47 am
Posts: 4587
superk wrote:
But the teams you mentioned at least did win championships

Think about that Jazz team with Stockton/Malone. Absolute choke artists on the biggest stage.


I was pulling for those Jazz teams.

_________________
14 yds Ben to JuJu/12 yds Ben to JuJu/23 yds Ben to JuJu/17 yds Ben to AB/Inc/12 yds Ben to AB/13 yds Ben to Switz//Inc/Inc/TD 3 yds Ben to AB/26 yds Ben to AB/20 yds Ben to JuJu/Inc/TD 20 yds Ben to AB

Up by 4, pull the plug. Fire Mike Tomlin.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jordon's Bulls
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:47 am
Posts: 4587
The Lakers team the Bulls beat for their first title was not the Magic - Kareem Lakers. Kareem was retired.

_________________
14 yds Ben to JuJu/12 yds Ben to JuJu/23 yds Ben to JuJu/17 yds Ben to AB/Inc/12 yds Ben to AB/13 yds Ben to Switz//Inc/Inc/TD 3 yds Ben to AB/26 yds Ben to AB/20 yds Ben to JuJu/Inc/TD 20 yds Ben to AB

Up by 4, pull the plug. Fire Mike Tomlin.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jordon's Bulls
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:47 am
Posts: 4587
Kodiak wrote:
Pistons: 2-1 (would have been a three-peat except for injuries in their first finals with LA).


I don't know about that, Kodiak. Lakers were at home for game 6 and 7 in that series. Detroit won 54 rs games that year. Lakers won 62. (That was the 1988 finals).

Next year (1989)...

The Lakers were going for a 3 peat in 1989. Magic was league mvp (his 2nd). They had swept all 3 series before the finals. In practice before the finals Byron Scott got injured and did not play in the series. Early in game 2 Magic pulled a hamstring which ended the series for him.

I agree the great teams in that decade beat up on each other.

_________________
14 yds Ben to JuJu/12 yds Ben to JuJu/23 yds Ben to JuJu/17 yds Ben to AB/Inc/12 yds Ben to AB/13 yds Ben to Switz//Inc/Inc/TD 3 yds Ben to AB/26 yds Ben to AB/20 yds Ben to JuJu/Inc/TD 20 yds Ben to AB

Up by 4, pull the plug. Fire Mike Tomlin.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jordon's Bulls
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:01 am
Posts: 12608
Havoc wrote:
The Lakers were going for a 3 peat in 1989. Magic was league mvp (his 2nd). They had swept all 3 series before the finals. In practice before the finals Byron Scott got injured and did not play in the series. Early in game 2 Magic pulled a hamstring which ended the series for him.

I agree the great teams in that decade beat up on each other.



Maybe, but the first time they played Isiah tweaked his ankle BADLY mid-way thru Game 6...and I think they lost AD in that, as well....they lost really close game 6 and 7.

I suppose you could argue that, without injuries, either one of those two three-peat.

_________________
------------------------------------------------------


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jordon's Bulls
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:16 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 12:06 am
Posts: 3781
Too bad the Rockets and the Bulls never got to play each other at their peak. Rockets will always be tagged with the team that took two titles while Jordan was away.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jordon's Bulls
PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:54 pm
Posts: 2369
You are disqualified from talking about basketball if you describe Rodman as a ":decent" rebounder. GTFO.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
FORUM RULES --- PRIVACY POLICY




Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group