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 Post subject: 915
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:36 pm 
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Sidney Crosby is about to tie the greatest Penguin player in history, Mario Lemieux for most games played in their careers as Pittsburgh Penguins tomorrow night.
915

Certainly Crosby will smash this record but to think what Lemieux did in so few games is mind numbing. If things were fair in life Crosby would have already smashed this record and probably would be challenging Mario for many other team records.
Those will come.

Sid is behind the Greatest in goals-256. At age 31 you would think if he remains healthy he will surpass this but it will take some time.
Sid is behind assists-290. Certainly he will end up owning this record.
Sid is behind in points-546. This one will take some time and might be the one he doesn't get.

How lucky are we to have had both of these players to root for in our lifetime! If fate had given them both a better bill of health the numbers would be even more staggering, more impressive.

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 Post subject: Re: 915
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:44 pm 
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How great is Mario Lemieux???

He's that far ahead of the best player in the current game... I mean, wow.

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 Post subject: Re: 915
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:00 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
How great is Mario Lemieux???

He's that far ahead of the best player in the current game... I mean, wow.


I've got him #3 all time behind Gretzky and Orr.

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 Post subject: Re: 915
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:06 pm 
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JackLambert58 wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
How great is Mario Lemieux???

He's that far ahead of the best player in the current game... I mean, wow.


I've got him #3 all time behind Gretzky and Orr.

It depends what criteria you use. Who had the best career? Gretzky. Who was the most spectacular? Either Lemieux or Orr. Gretzky best set-up guy, Lemieux best scorer, Orr best skater, Howe best old-time hockey god.

Lemieux is the best player I've ever seen. We'll never know how great he could have been with the opportunities or health Gretzky had. Pre-left wing lock (i.e.: interference garbage), there was no one better at the game of hockey who ever laced them up.

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 Post subject: Re: 915
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:09 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
How great is Mario Lemieux???

He's that far ahead of the best player in the current game... I mean, wow.

Want to really have your mind blown? Gretzky is #1 all time at 1.921 Points/Game. Lemieux is right behind him at 1.883 P/G. If you expand that out to an 82 games, it works out to a 3 point difference over the course of a season - not a huge gap.


#3 is Mike Bossy at 1.497 P/G. Over 82 games, that works out to a 31 point difference over the course of a season. Gretzky and Lemieux were that far ahead of anyone else who has ever played.

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 Post subject: Re: 915
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:18 pm 
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JackLambert58 wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
How great is Mario Lemieux???

He's that far ahead of the best player in the current game... I mean, wow.


I've got him #3 all time behind Gretzky and Orr.


Mine(I saw these guys play live)
1)Mario-didn't have a world class player next to him or on the team for the first 5-6 years of his career. Basically a one man team with some decent talent mixed in. Could take over a game unlike any player before or after. When he wanted to be, he was the best defensive player on the ice.

2) Gretzky- his numbers are staggering but he came into the NHL and had incredible talent around him early on his career. Might be one of the most clever players ever. All time cherry picker.

3) Orr-changed the game unlike any player before or after. He turned the NHL on its ear with his style. I loved watching him as much as any player and if his knees hadn't given out...

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 Post subject: Re: 915
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:11 pm 
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Sad that there are a lot of "what ifs?" attached to Mario and Sid in regards to injury.

But damn we've been fucking lucky in terms of hockey stars:

Mario
Jagr
Sid
Malkin

All generational players for the past 40 years. Most franchises didn't even get 1 generational guy

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 Post subject: Re: 915
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:18 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
How great is Mario Lemieux???

He's that far ahead of the best player in the current game... I mean, wow.



I mean, I'm not at all trying to crap on Mario here, as he's absolutely in the discussion for best all time, and certainly my favorite hockey player....and maybe even just athlete in general if I thought about it hard enough, but he did play the first half of his career in a much looser era than Sid ever had the chance to play in.

I'm not at all saying that Mario wouldn't dominate the current league, I just think his point totals would be a lot more inline with Sid's if he played in the same time period.


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 Post subject: Re: 915
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:43 pm 
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Louis Lipps Service wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
How great is Mario Lemieux???

He's that far ahead of the best player in the current game... I mean, wow.



I mean, I'm not at all trying to crap on Mario here, as he's absolutely in the discussion for best all time, and certainly my favorite hockey player....and maybe even just athlete in general if I thought about it hard enough, but he did play the first half of his career in a much looser era than Sid ever had the chance to play in.

I'm not at all saying that Mario wouldn't dominate the current league, I just think his point totals would be a lot more inline with Sid's if he played in the same time period.


I have to disagree.
Mario had virtually nothing when he came into the league. Sure the league today is more talented all around but Mario played in the age of the end of goonery. Mario had to deal with guys who tried to beat him down every game thus the Pens had to put talentless hacks around him to protect him.
Crosby came in and had Malkin after his rookie year a luxury that Mario didn't get until 6-7 years later in his career when the Pens got Jagr.

I get the goaltending is better and the equipment bigger for the tenders of today.

Lemieux and Gretzky might not put up the gaudy numbers of the 80-90's but IMO they would dominate still and be easily the two best of this era.

I'd like to see what some of the players of this era would do in the 80-90's.

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 Post subject: Re: 915
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:50 pm 
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Pabst wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
How great is Mario Lemieux???

He's that far ahead of the best player in the current game... I mean, wow.

Want to really have your mind blown? Gretzky is #1 all time at 1.921 Points/Game. Lemieux is right behind him at 1.883 P/G. If you expand that out to an 82 games, it works out to a 3 point difference over the course of a season - not a huge gap.


#3 is Mike Bossy at 1.497 P/G. Over 82 games, that works out to a 31 point difference over the course of a season. Gretzky and Lemieux were that far ahead of anyone else who has ever played.


If Lemieux didn't come out of retirement to save his franchise financially, and likely hockey in Pittsburgh as we know it, he would remain the only player in NHL history with a career average over 2.0 ppg. There may be no player in the history of any sport as significant to the history of their franchise than Super Mario.


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 Post subject: Re: 915
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:26 pm 
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^ truth.


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 Post subject: Re: 915
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:27 pm 
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fractalsteel wrote:
Louis Lipps Service wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
How great is Mario Lemieux???

He's that far ahead of the best player in the current game... I mean, wow.



I mean, I'm not at all trying to crap on Mario here, as he's absolutely in the discussion for best all time, and certainly my favorite hockey player....and maybe even just athlete in general if I thought about it hard enough, but he did play the first half of his career in a much looser era than Sid ever had the chance to play in.

I'm not at all saying that Mario wouldn't dominate the current league, I just think his point totals would be a lot more inline with Sid's if he played in the same time period.


I have to disagree.
Mario had virtually nothing when he came into the league. Sure the league today is more talented all around but Mario played in the age of the end of goonery. Mario had to deal with guys who tried to beat him down every game thus the Pens had to put talentless hacks around him to protect him.
Crosby came in and had Malkin after his rookie year a luxury that Mario didn't get until 6-7 years later in his career when the Pens got Jagr.

I get the goaltending is better and the equipment bigger for the tenders of today.

Lemieux and Gretzky might not put up the gaudy numbers of the 80-90's but IMO they would dominate still and be easily the two best of this era.

I'd like to see what some of the players of this era would do in the 80-90's.


You're arguing a different point. I specifically said that I'd fully expect Mario to be able to dominate today's players. Like, that was literally the last line in my post.

I was simply saying that Mario has so many more points than Sid does because Mario spent part of his career in an era where scoring was sky high all around the league. The scoring leader in today's NHL is usually right around 100 points. In the 80's and early 90's, the leader usually wound up with well over 150 and even 200. Second-tiered stars were finishing with more points than what today's superstars are finishing with.

Mario wouldn't get nearly as many points in today's game. Not because he'd be less dominate, but because that's just not how the game is anymore.


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 Post subject: Re: 915
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:28 pm 
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That Islanders team of the early 80's seems to get overlooked quite a bit, and they are one of the greatest of all time. Mike Bossy was a scoring machine. We know a little about Brian Trottier, but he was at the top of his game on the Island. Denis Potvin is possibly the second or third greatest defenseman. Clark Gilles, Butch Goring, Billy Smith, that team was stacked.

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 Post subject: Re: 915
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:16 pm 
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Louis Lipps Service wrote:

You're arguing a different point. I specifically said that I'd fully expect Mario to be able to dominate today's players. Like, that was literally the last line in my post.

I was simply saying that Mario has so many more points than Sid does because Mario spent part of his career in an era where scoring was sky high all around the league. The scoring leader in today's NHL is usually right around 100 points. In the 80's and early 90's, the leader usually wound up with well over 150 and even 200. Second-tiered stars were finishing with more points than what today's superstars are finishing with.

Mario wouldn't get nearly as many points in today's game. Not because he'd be less dominate, but because that's just not how the game is anymore.


You're right I argued a different point.
I agree with with some of what you said but I still think Gretzky and Lemieux would win the scoring title every year in this era.
So I did some quick research and found that b/n 1981-1996 Gretzky and Lemieux won all the scoring titles with the exception of two which Jagr won. Nearly in every season in that stretch both Mario and Wayne were 1-2 and the others were way behind those two, sometimes by fifty or more points.
Interestingly, there were nearly ten players every year with at least 100 points.
Yeah, scoring was easier back then but Mario and Gretzky had totals that dwarfed the others.

No doubt that if either played today their numbers would be much less but I still contend they would be at the top of the scoring list yearly just not by fifty or more points.

Inline with Sid and the others who are putting up the best numbers, maybe.

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 Post subject: Re: 915
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:29 pm 
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I'd argue that Gretzky played in an even looser era than Lemieux, and got way more protection from the officials. The first part of Gretzky's career was more or less like playing in the All-Star game, both with the talent around him and the style of play.

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 Post subject: Re: 915
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:49 pm 
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Era adjusted stats are totally a thing, fyi:

https://www.hockey-reference.com/about/adjusted_stats.html
https://www.hockey-reference.com/leaders/points_adjusted_career.html

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 Post subject: Re: 915
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:52 pm 
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love Sid and Mario; class acts! biggest reason Mario has edge was his sheer size! if Sid was 6ft 4 with long ass arms and legs he be marios equal I think. such a shame Mario had the health issues as he was such an amazing force! what a great competitor and player Sid is! so lucky pens got him. super star with great work ethic and fine teammate. on side note how about jagr? dude had amazing long career! iron man like!


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 Post subject: Re: 915
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:13 am 
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Pabst wrote:

Interesting. So if you divide the adjusted point totals by number of games played..

Mario - 1.68
Gretzky - 1.66

Mario was better!

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