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 Post subject: Re: Penguins Offseason Thread 2018
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:29 pm 
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Donnie Brasco wrote:
Louis Lipps Service wrote:
Oleksiak extended 3 years at around $2.1M/per.


Rutherford also talking about the center position in a press conferences and said the current plan was to try Brassard at wing, with the caveat of "Just because we try it, doesn't mean we have to stick to it".


And Our defense continues to get more expensive. But that's what happens when you don't have any youngsters coming up who are cheap on the blueline.
Could you imagine if Geno/Sid took contracts that were market value? We'd barely have a team


Looking back over the past decade the only player the Pens have organically developed on the blue line is Maata. Others just didn't work out here(Goligoski, Despres,Pouliot). Add Harrington to that list as well.

I saw that Fluery got 3 years- 7 million a year so good for him though I think it is too much.

And I'm still trying to make heads/tails of the Arizona/Chicago trade.

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 Post subject: Re: Penguins Offseason Thread 2018
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:33 pm 
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fractalsteel wrote:
Donnie Brasco wrote:
Louis Lipps Service wrote:
Oleksiak extended 3 years at around $2.1M/per.


Rutherford also talking about the center position in a press conferences and said the current plan was to try Brassard at wing, with the caveat of "Just because we try it, doesn't mean we have to stick to it".


And Our defense continues to get more expensive. But that's what happens when you don't have any youngsters coming up who are cheap on the blueline.
Could you imagine if Geno/Sid took contracts that were market value? We'd barely have a team


Looking back over the past decade the only player the Pens have organically developed on the blue line is Maata. Others just didn't work out here(Goligoski, Despres,Pouliot). Add Harrington to that list as well.

I saw that Fluery got 3 years- 7 million a year so good for him though I think it is too much.

And I'm still trying to make heads/tails of the Arizona/Chicago trade.


You can add Dumo to your list. Letang and Gogo

The Chic/Arz trade was all about Chicago getting cap space. Hossa is retired


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 Post subject: Re: Penguins Offseason Thread 2018
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:51 pm 
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Dumo wasn't organic, we got him in a trade. Letang didn't fall into the decade category either. If I remember correctly the Pens had to choose b/n Gogo and Letang for reasons I'm not sure of.

I got the gist of the trade Chi/Ar for cap space but the other players?

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 Post subject: Re: Penguins Offseason Thread 2018
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:00 pm 
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fractalsteel wrote:
Dumo wasn't organic, we got him in a trade. Letang didn't fall into the decade category either. If I remember correctly the Pens had to choose b/n Gogo and Letang for reasons I'm not sure of.

I got the gist of the trade Chi/Ar for cap space but the other players?



We got Dumo in a trade from Carolina, but he had never really played for Carolina (he was still at Boston College when Carolina had his rights, they signed him to an entry level contract after he left BC, but was traded to us a month after, before ever playing in Carolina's system), then spent almost 2 years at WBS before playing for the Pens.

So, I'd personally count that as "organic".


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 Post subject: Re: Penguins Offseason Thread 2018
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:08 pm 
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I'll add that I don't think it invalidate's your point, fractal. Just a "for the record" kind of thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Penguins Offseason Thread 2018
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:39 pm 
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Louis Lipps Service wrote:
fractalsteel wrote:
Dumo wasn't organic, we got him in a trade. Letang didn't fall into the decade category either. If I remember correctly the Pens had to choose b/n Gogo and Letang for reasons I'm not sure of.

I got the gist of the trade Chi/Ar for cap space but the other players?



We got Dumo in a trade from Carolina, but he had never really played for Carolina (he was still at Boston College when Carolina had his rights, they signed him to an entry level contract after he left BC, but was traded to us a month after, before ever playing in Carolina's system), then spent almost 2 years at WBS before playing for the Pens.

So, I'd personally count that as "organic".


The past decade the Pens have done poorly building a D corp from drafting them to developing them. If you look at the current roster that goes for most of it as well.
We hit on Crosby, Malkin, and Letang. Throw Fleury in there as well. Might be able to say the same thing about Guentzel in a few years.
Sure, the Pens developed Dumo and they got that part of it right but they have been terrible aside from him grooming young d men brought up through their system.

I guess it really doesn't matter because the window is what it is and we have the pieces to another cup before it is shut. After 87/71 fade away it most likely is going to be barren in the Pens world.

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 Post subject: Re: Penguins Offseason Thread 2018
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:38 am 
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fractalsteel wrote:
Louis Lipps Service wrote:
fractalsteel wrote:
Dumo wasn't organic, we got him in a trade. Letang didn't fall into the decade category either. If I remember correctly the Pens had to choose b/n Gogo and Letang for reasons I'm not sure of.

I got the gist of the trade Chi/Ar for cap space but the other players?



We got Dumo in a trade from Carolina, but he had never really played for Carolina (he was still at Boston College when Carolina had his rights, they signed him to an entry level contract after he left BC, but was traded to us a month after, before ever playing in Carolina's system), then spent almost 2 years at WBS before playing for the Pens.

So, I'd personally count that as "organic".


The past decade the Pens have done poorly building a D corp from drafting them to developing them. If you look at the current roster that goes for most of it as well.
We hit on Crosby, Malkin, and Letang. Throw Fleury in there as well. Might be able to say the same thing about Guentzel in a few years.
Sure, the Pens developed Dumo and they got that part of it right but they have been terrible aside from him grooming young d men brought up through their system.

I guess it really doesn't matter because the window is what it is and we have the pieces to another cup before it is shut. After 87/71 fade away it most likely is going to be barren in the Pens world.


Definitely a non-issue if looking at the past. If the Penguins actually had a majority of their draft picks and didn't win three cups, then I guess there'd be a point. If anything, the Penguins making something out of nothing with defensemen has actually been a bit of an amazing feat.

The Penguins have "revitalized" or pushed the potential of more than enough defenders in the NHL to make their drafting a nonfactor. It's actually a pretty big list. Niskanen, Oleksiak (maybe), Daley, Schultz, Cole come off the top of my head. Three of those were major reasons why the team won the cup twice. They were also able to sign a few guys to help them along in the years between Cups. Guys like Paul Martin come to mind. The Penguins have had several of their own drafted players develop into talented NHL defensemen during Crosby's tenure that they later traded for other assets. Robert Bortuzzo has become a reliable NHL player. He was traded for Ian Cole, who helped the team win two cups. Ben Lovejoy was a bottom pairing guy who played his best hockey of his career in the first of back-to-back Cups. If you recall, he was with the Ducks for two years before getting traded back to Pittsburgh for Simon Despres, easily a top 4 defender drafted by the Penguins if not for injury. In retrospect, while still a bad trade, what happened happened, and I wouldn't take back that Cup.

Most forget Ryan Whitney, another player the Penguins drafted and developed. Yes, he was the fifth overall pick, and I guess one could consider him a "bust" at the position, but not really. It was a very, very weak class. Of the 291 players drafted, only 7 became All Stars. That list of 7 isnt too impressive either: Rick Nash, Keith, Jay Bouwmeester, Alex Semin, Joffrey Lupul, Cam Ward, Frans Nielsen. Whoop de doo. Duncan Keith is the best player from that draft (#54 overall). Whitney was traded to Anaheim for Chris Kunitz and Eric Tangradi. This was an absolutely outstanding trade. If Kunitz were drafted in 2002, he'd easily be a top 3 pick behind Keith and Nash. This was still the Patrick era. Good job by Shero to recognize the value of the more mobile Dmen because he exploited Anaheim in this deal. The point being, the Penguins used their assets to get better. It should be mentioned that Whitney played eight seasons, and he was an NHL caliber play during those years, and I feel like he would have been a much better player had he not suffered some pretty brutal injuries. He finished top 15 in Norris voting in his second year with the Penguins. That ankle injury forced him to retire at 30.


I see someone else mentioned Goligoski and how he was traded for James Neal.

There were also some Penguins defensemen who had success but did not yield any sort of valuable return because the team let them walk instead of trade them during the deadline or trade their rights during the offseason. Brooks Orpik, drafted by the team, is the one that comes to mind, but Niskanen (trade) was also allowed to play out his contract without any value added in return. Same goes for Rob Scuderi, who signed a lucrative deal with the Kings during the offseason after Crosby's first Cup. I think Ron Hainsey played well for Carolina, but there's no doubt he got much more money from Toronto than he would have otherwise because of his performance with the Penguins.


This got me a bit curious about the draft picks in and out for the Penguins. I went back to the point where I felt the Penguins really felt like they had a chance of winning the cup, 2008. Here's what I found.

Draft picks traded
2008 1st rd pick (#29; Roman Josi pick 38, Slava Voynov pick 32) (Hossa trade)
2008 2nd rd pick (#60; Toronto picked current Penguin Jimmy Hayes with this pick) (Hal Gill trade)
2009 2nd rd pick (#91) (Guerin trade)
2009 5th rd pick (#150) (Gill)
2009 7th rd pick (#210) (draft pick trade)
2010 2nd rd pick (#50) (Jordan Leopold trade)
2010 7th rd pick (#200) (draft pick trade)
2011 3rd rd pick (#83) (Dan Hamhuis rights)
2011 4th rd pick (#113; ended up being Tobias Rieder, a solid player) (Mathieu Garon trade)
2011 7th rd pick (#203; became Ryan Dzingel) (Kovalev trade)
2012 7th rd pick (Tomas Vokoun trade)
2013 1st rd pick (Iginla)
2013 5th rd pick (Morrow for Morrow trade)
2014 3rd rd pick (Lee Stempniak trade)
2014 5th rd pick (Marcel Goc trade)
2015 1st rd pick (David Perron trade)
2015 3rd rd pick (Goc again)
2015 4th rd pick (Winnik trade)
2016 1st rd pick (Kessel)
2016 2nd rd pick (Winnik. Insanity)
2016 3rd rd pick (Kessel)
2016 3rd rd pick (Schultz)
2016 7th rd pick (Bortuzzo/Cole swap)
2017 1st rd pick (Ryan fucking Reaves)
2017 2nd rd pick (Hainsey)
2017 4th rd pick (Fehr salary dump)
2018 1st rd pick (Brassard)
2018 3rd rd pick (Sheahan/Wilson)
2018 4th rd pick (Payment to TB for workaround with Philly contract)
2019 3rd rd pick (Brassard)
2019 4th rd pick (Oleksiak)
2019 6th rd pick (Archibald trade)
2020 2nd rd pick (Fleury to Vegas guarantee)


Draft picks acquired
2009 3rd rd pick (Malone traded to TB)
2009 5th rd pick (Michael Sersen [lol, who?] traded to TB)
2010 6th rd pick (#152) (Chris Peluso trade [who??])
2011 7th rd pick (#208; turned into Scott Wilson)
2012 1st rd pick (#8 Derrick Pouliot; vomit!)
2012 3rd rd pick (#81 Oskar Sundqvist)
2012 4th rd pick (Mark Letestu trade)
2013 2nd rd pick (Tyler Kennedy)
2013 3rd rd pick (Morrow for Morrow trade)
2013 7th rd pick (Eric Tangradi trade)
2014 5th rd pick (Ben Lovejoy trade)
2016 2nd rd pick (Sutter traded in a fleecing. Womp womp.)
2016 3rd rd pick (Bennett to NJ)
2017 2nd rd pick (Reaves traded to PITT)
2018 3rd rd pick (Brassard)
2018 4th rd pick (Pouilot to VAN)
2018 5th rd pick (Sheahan/Wilson swap)

By my math, that's 33 draft picks shipped out in 10 years with only 17 coming back. I'm counting 6 of 10 possible first rounders traded too. Combine that with the fact that the Penguins have been drafting at the bottom of the round mostly, it really shows how skilled the staff was in finding other avenues for success and by squeezing all they could out of guys they drafted in the mid and late rounds like Rust, Guentzel, Wilson, etc. Free agent signing Conor Sheary also included in there.

Imagine a Steelers draft history without 6 of 10 1st round picks the last 10 years. It wouldn't be a pretty team. See ya Pouncey, Heyward, Decastro, Shazier, etc. The team wouldn't look good ignoring the factor that the Penguins/Steelers got value for those picks (Kessel, Hossa, Perron, etc.). If Shero/Rutherford weren't mostly wonderful at trading, this team would have been buried to hell, as they flipped the traded players over and over in a cycle and usually didn't lose too much value. Think how Goligoski became Neal became Hornqvist. Think how Staal became Sutter+parts(Dumo) became Bonino+parts. Funny enough, we all know that Shero/Rutherford were the duo in that original trade. Shero made a shit ton of mistakes. Look at who Crosby had to play with the majority of his career. Man, he was good at trading though.That was his strength as a GM, and he used that strength. One of those 1,000 ways to skin a cat things.


Last edited by Hacksaw Jim Duggan on Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:05 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Penguins Offseason Thread 2018
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:27 am 
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Great post Hacksaw


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 Post subject: Re: Penguins Offseason Thread 2018
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:51 pm 
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As a side, it should also be said that we're comparing two totally different scouting philosophies and staffs here, as well as two totally different minor league systems.

Shero wouldn't be caught dead drafting someone like Sprong in 2009. Shero made a concerted effort to replenish draft picks around 2012, but he really just hatcheted them the rest of the time, except for a brief period where he kept his first round picks. Most of his fruit beared after he was fired.

Rutherford is totally butchering the Penguins draft picks, dispensing them to other teams like candy, but at the same time, his drafts have a much sounder philosophy under Patrick Allvin and crew. Draft players with speed, who come from anywhere, and who are productive with some talented traits.

It'll be interesting to see how the two GMs compare when Rutherford's tenure with the team ends.


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 Post subject: Re: Penguins Offseason Thread 2018
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:14 pm 
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Another thing on Dumo.

When he was traded to Pittsburgh, the Penguins staff most certainly a) had scouting reports on him b) actively scouted him before the trade. The player then developed under the Penguins. Yes, you can call Dumo an organically developed player by the Penguins. It's mostly the same process with some changes in staff between the amateur and pro scouts. They all work together, and they especially would have worked together when Shero and Rutherford were working through the Staal trade. If you can't call Dumo a developed player because the player wasn't drafted by the team, then by that logic, I can take credit for any and all the players drafted with first round picks that were traded by Pittsburgh because the rights to that pick were originally the Penguins.


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