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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Guppies
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:47 pm 
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fractalsteel wrote:
Suwanee88 wrote:
Tommy K is improving, no question. That's all I am pointing out.


Improving where?
Not offensively. He has 2 goals in nearly 50 games so far this season.
I think the most goals he has had in an NHL season was 5. I would expect someone with offensive skills on the fourth line to score 10 goals a season.
I'm not knocking him as player because he has value.
Shot blocking makes up some of that value and is a rare commodity in the game today. He is also a good PK'er so he adds to the team there.
One more thing, when was the last time Sully moved him up and down the lineup? He can't hang with the bigger dogs.
Knuckle is fine on the fourth line.


I don't know. Guys getting 4th line minutes that score 10 goals a season are pretty rare. You don't stay on the 4th line with that kind of production. Pretty hard to get double digit goals with no PP time and 7 or 8 minutes a night of even strength time especially when you don't have much talent on the line with you. I'm not saying he is a great talent by any stretch. I just think he gets a lot more grief than he deserves.

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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Guppies
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:40 pm 
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SteelPro wrote:
fractalsteel wrote:
Suwanee88 wrote:
Tommy K is improving, no question. That's all I am pointing out.


Improving where?
Not offensively. He has 2 goals in nearly 50 games so far this season.
I think the most goals he has had in an NHL season was 5. I would expect someone with offensive skills on the fourth line to score 10 goals a season.
I'm not knocking him as player because he has value.
Shot blocking makes up some of that value and is a rare commodity in the game today. He is also a good PK'er so he adds to the team there.
One more thing, when was the last time Sully moved him up and down the lineup? He can't hang with the bigger dogs.
Knuckle is fine on the fourth line.


I don't know. Guys getting 4th line minutes that score 10 goals a season are pretty rare. You don't stay on the 4th line with that kind of production. Pretty hard to get double digit goals with no PP time and 7 or 8 minutes a night of even strength time especially when you don't have much talent on the line with you. I'm not saying he is a great talent by any stretch. I just think he gets a lot more grief than he deserves.


Matt Cullen was mostly a fourth liner last year and scored more than 10 goals. I know he moved up and down the lineup depending on the situation but he anchored the 4th line most of the year.
The good teams seem to have a winger or centre on the 4th line that can score 10+ goals/season-one reason why the Pens struggled in the bottom six the first half of the year.

I'm not giving knuckle grief because he is limited and what he does(shot blocks/PK) he does well. That said he is replaceable because that is pretty much all he is ever going to be known for in the NHL.
You will probably never see #34 on the PP or getting any minutes in OT- 3 on 3.

I was responding to Suwannee and his post about knuckle being better offensively. I'm not seeing that and I don't think you ever will see it. Doesn't mean he doesn't have value to the team.

After watching this team for half a season I'm glad Reaves is getting the seat over knuckle but #34 is nothing but ordinary.

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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Guppies
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:38 pm 
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fractalsteel wrote:
Matt Cullen was mostly a fourth liner last year and scored more than 10 goals. I know he moved up and down the lineup depending on the situation but he anchored the 4th line most of the year.
The good teams seem to have a winger or centre on the 4th line that can score 10+ goals/season-one reason why the Pens struggled in the bottom six the first half of the year.

I'm not giving knuckle grief because he is limited and what he does(shot blocks/PK) he does well. That said he is replaceable because that is pretty much all he is ever going to be known for in the NHL.
You will probably never see #34 on the PP or getting any minutes in OT- 3 on 3.

I was responding to Suwannee and his post about knuckle being better offensively. I'm not seeing that and I don't think you ever will see it. Doesn't mean he doesn't have value to the team.

After watching this team for half a season I'm glad Reaves is getting the seat over knuckle but #34 is nothing but ordinary.

FWIW - Cullen also played on the PP for parts of last year (he had 2 PPGs) and he also averaged about 3 more minutes of ice time than Kuhn.
Don't disagree about Kuhn's skillset, but I just think Cullen is a bad comparison.

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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Guppies
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:10 pm 
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Louis Lipps Service wrote:
Suwanee88 wrote:
Instead of over paying and making a bad trade, I would take Cullen and make him a 3C for this run if there are no other options. I could live with that - is there one more run left in the old man? Maybe.


I think if Cullen ended up coming back, I'd rather put Cullen on the 4th line and Sheahan on the 3rd. Which isn't to say I like that option at all, as I don't think it really gets us in any better of a situation. I just think their goal is to separate Crosby, Malkin, and Kessel again, and I don't think Cullen is a good fit at all with Kessel. Which isn't to say Sheahan is, I just think he'd be better than Cullen.

Which is why I don't like that trade. The more you talk it out, the less sense it makes.


I'm convinced the C market is dead because you know JR gets the guy he wants, even at a slight overpayment (reaves). I've heard so many C names: PAgeau, Brassard, etc.

So if there is not a deal to be had before the playoffs you have to get one of those lower level guys bc you don't want Rowney at C and you don't want Jake anywhere near C.
Yup not ideal and you hope the market loosens up during the summer. But if you want a silver lining, next summer we'll only need to replace 1 C vs the 2 holes we had this year.


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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Guppies
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:22 pm 
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Pabst wrote:
fractalsteel wrote:
Matt Cullen was mostly a fourth liner last year and scored more than 10 goals. I know he moved up and down the lineup depending on the situation but he anchored the 4th line most of the year.
The good teams seem to have a winger or centre on the 4th line that can score 10+ goals/season-one reason why the Pens struggled in the bottom six the first half of the year.

I'm not giving knuckle grief because he is limited and what he does(shot blocks/PK) he does well. That said he is replaceable because that is pretty much all he is ever going to be known for in the NHL.
You will probably never see #34 on the PP or getting any minutes in OT- 3 on 3.

I was responding to Suwannee and his post about knuckle being better offensively. I'm not seeing that and I don't think you ever will see it. Doesn't mean he doesn't have value to the team.

After watching this team for half a season I'm glad Reaves is getting the seat over knuckle but #34 is nothing but ordinary.

FWIW - Cullen also played on the PP for parts of last year (he had 2 PPGs) and he also averaged about 3 more minutes of ice time than Kuhn.
Don't disagree about Kuhn's skillset, but I just think Cullen is a bad comparison.


Pro asked about 4th liners who scored 10+ goals so I gave him an example of Cullen. In no way was I comparing skills sets between Cullen and knuckle.
Cullen was a fourth line center for the Pens unless there were injuries to the top 3. We don't have that kind of skill any longer at the centre position-bottom six.

Here are some other 4th line types that have scored 10+ goals in a season during their careers-Clutterbuck(Islanders)/Abdelkader(Wings) and Beagle(Caps) for example.
Looking around, a lot of teams have talent at the fourth line but most of the players compromising those lines are young and just getting started in their careers.

I'm just saying that I don't believe(the original argument) that knuckle has improved offensively this season.

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