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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Islanders 4-14-19
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:58 pm 
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Blow it up...let Sully work with some youngsters again

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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Islanders 4-14-19
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:01 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
Blow it up...let Sully work with some youngsters again


First thing I'd blow up is Sully.

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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Islanders 4-14-19
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:07 pm 
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Hmm. Superstars and coaches. Interesting lot.

This team's success is over. Back to the slog, regardless of coaching.

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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Islanders 4-14-19
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:08 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
Blow it up...let Sully work with some youngsters again


This brings up an interesting point. So we are getting older, and now getting spanked by the Islanders, Caps are still strong, Columbus is solid and Tampa is stacked.

So where do we go from here. Just blow it up and start over? These boys aren't competing for awhile.


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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Islanders 4-14-19
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:09 pm 
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interesting off season ahead; what do u do? who we keep?. Sid and geno? kessell? id like letangs over paid ass jettisoned and matta. plenty more behind them. do u trade a Gino or Sid for youth? can't imagine pens without them. clearly the teams hit a wall. reminds me of steelers in early 80s. or the steelers this past year for that matter.


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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Islanders 4-14-19
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:22 pm 
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bam morris wrote:
interesting off season ahead; what do u do? who we keep?. Sid and geno? kessell? id like letangs over paid ass jettisoned and matta. plenty more behind them. do u trade a Gino or Sid for youth? can't imagine pens without them. clearly the teams hit a wall. reminds me of steelers in early 80s. or the steelers this past year for that matter.

At the least, I shake up the coaching staff. If that means keeping Sullima then you get rid of the rest of them.

Murray might be the biggest problem going forward.
You don't trade Crosby unless he wants out.
Malkin is going to be 33 next year so I don't believe you would ever get an equal return on him. Hacksaw was right, giving Horny that contract is going to backfire on the team.
I don't know about Kessel or Letang, again they are aging so the returns wouldn't be great.

I suspect the Pens give it one more year.

The more time that passes the more Sullivan becomes like Bylsma. Firing the coach has worked in the past.

Maybe the best thing that could have happened was to have missed the playoffs and get a shot in the draft lottery. At least we have a first rounder this year.

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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Islanders 4-14-19
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:25 pm 
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fractalsteel wrote:
bam morris wrote:
interesting off season ahead; what do u do? who we keep?. Sid and geno? kessell? id like letangs over paid ass jettisoned and matta. plenty more behind them. do u trade a Gino or Sid for youth? can't imagine pens without them. clearly the teams hit a wall. reminds me of steelers in early 80s. or the steelers this past year for that matter.

At the least, I shake up the coaching staff. If that means keeping Sullima then you get rid of the rest of them.

Murray might be the biggest problem going forward.
You don't trade Crosby unless he wants out.
Malkin is going to be 33 next year so I don't believe you would ever get an equal return on him. Hacksaw was right, giving Horny that contract is going to backfire on the team.
I don't know about Kessel or Letang, again they are aging so the returns wouldn't be great.

I suspect the Pens give it one more year.

The more time that passes the more Sullivan becomes like Bylsma. Firing the coach has worked in the past.

Maybe the best thing that could have happened was to have missed the playoffs and get a shot in the draft lottery. At least we have a first rounder this year.
I don't know shit about pens history, but this smells right.

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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Islanders 4-14-19
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:32 pm 
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fractalsteel wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
Blow it up...let Sully work with some youngsters again


First thing I'd blow up is Sully.


I just don't know enough about hockey to know when a coach needs to go. Especially one that has won 2 cups. Just think his message is stale?


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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Islanders 4-14-19
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:47 pm 
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bam morris wrote:
swissvale72 wrote:
Fair to say that Isles goalie is stopping every shot that Murray lets in?

yes; Murray looks like a slo motion robot.

Johnson and Grubanson look worse


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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Islanders 4-14-19
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:59 pm 
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fractalsteel wrote:
bam morris wrote:
interesting off season ahead; what do u do? who we keep?. Sid and geno? kessell? id like letangs over paid ass jettisoned and matta. plenty more behind them. do u trade a Gino or Sid for youth? can't imagine pens without them. clearly the teams hit a wall. reminds me of steelers in early 80s. or the steelers this past year for that matter.

At the least, I shake up the coaching staff. If that means keeping Sullima then you get rid of the rest of them.

Murray might be the biggest problem going forward.
You don't trade Crosby unless he wants out.
Malkin is going to be 33 next year so I don't believe you would ever get an equal return on him. Hacksaw was right, giving Horny that contract is going to backfire on the team.
I don't know about Kessel or Letang, again they are aging so the returns wouldn't be great.

I suspect the Pens give it one more year.

The more time that passes the more Sullivan becomes like Bylsma. Firing the coach has worked in the past.

Maybe the best thing that could have happened was to have missed the playoffs and get a shot in the draft lottery. At least we have a first rounder this year.


I think we're looking at the Penguins equivalent of the 2011 Steelers right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Islanders 4-14-19
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:59 pm 
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Amazing to me how people turn on coaches. Sully has proven he can win the Stanley Cup, but it's been a couple of years since he's won one, so it's time for him to go.

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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Islanders 4-14-19
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:06 pm 
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Poltargyst wrote:
Amazing to me how people turn on coaches. Sully has proven he can win the Stanley Cup, but it's been a couple of years since he's won one, so it's time for him to go.

I don’t know hockey shit, but I feel safe in saying that his current team is not in the same ballpark as those Cup teams. The supporting cast is far inferior...


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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Islanders 4-14-19
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:30 pm 
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Poltargyst wrote:
Amazing to me how people turn on coaches. Sully has proven he can win the Stanley Cup, but it's been a couple of years since he's won one, so it's time for him to go.


I blame the FO for getting away from what made them great more than Sullivan...for the moment.

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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Islanders 4-14-19
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:37 pm 
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Poltargyst wrote:
Amazing to me how people turn on coaches. Sully has proven he can win the Stanley Cup, but it's been a couple of years since he's won one, so it's time for him to go.


I'm with you here. It's not like it's been 10 years since Sully's last Stanley Cup championship. It's only two seasons, and this season isn't done yet. It wasn't too long ago that another New York team was up 3-0 only to be beaten 4 games to 3.

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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Islanders 4-14-19
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:41 pm 
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JackLambert58 wrote:
fractalsteel wrote:
bam morris wrote:
interesting off season ahead; what do u do? who we keep?. Sid and geno? kessell? id like letangs over paid ass jettisoned and matta. plenty more behind them. do u trade a Gino or Sid for youth? can't imagine pens without them. clearly the teams hit a wall. reminds me of steelers in early 80s. or the steelers this past year for that matter.

At the least, I shake up the coaching staff. If that means keeping Sullima then you get rid of the rest of them.

Murray might be the biggest problem going forward.
You don't trade Crosby unless he wants out.
Malkin is going to be 33 next year so I don't believe you would ever get an equal return on him. Hacksaw was right, giving Horny that contract is going to backfire on the team.
I don't know about Kessel or Letang, again they are aging so the returns wouldn't be great.

I suspect the Pens give it one more year.

The more time that passes the more Sullivan becomes like Bylsma. Firing the coach has worked in the past.

Maybe the best thing that could have happened was to have missed the playoffs and get a shot in the draft lottery. At least we have a first rounder this year.


I think we're looking at the Penguins equivalent of the 2011 Steelers right now.


That is a cold and sobering thought.

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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Islanders 4-14-19
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:52 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
Poltargyst wrote:
Amazing to me how people turn on coaches. Sully has proven he can win the Stanley Cup, but it's been a couple of years since he's won one, so it's time for him to go.


I blame the FO for getting away from what made them great more than Sullivan...for the moment.


What have they really gotten away from?
The JJ signing was bad but there might have been circumstances there that we don't know about. It's not like they haven't mixed in some younger guys recently(Blueger, Simon, Wilson, ZAR for example).

Like I said before the more time that passes the more Sully becomes more Bylsma like. He is stubborn with certain players. He used to be great at 'in-series' adjustments but that hasn't been the case the past two postseasons. He goes away from lines that are working so that he can put his favorites on the top lines.
I'm shocked he benched Maata. That gave me some hope.
Today he should have put Malkin on the top line to start the third period. He waited too long for that and ended wearing those top lines down because he shortened his bench for a good bit of the third period.

I have no doubts he will be back next year and he deserves it to a large degree but he hasn't grown as an NHL coach since the cups and that was the reason why he failed the first time he got a head coaching position at the NHL level.

We had injuries this year but nothing devastating. No more than most teams yet it took us until the second to last game to qualify for the playoffs. With this squad that is what I call underachieving.

I also blame the players as well. And we have seen with this core that it sometimes takes a change on the bench to get them going again.

No doubts that Mario rolls with the same cast next year for the most part. There will be a few changes but I expect the most of today's team will start the next season as Penguins.

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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Islanders 4-14-19
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:04 pm 
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I go for a partial rebuild. Keep Sid and Malkin. Everyone else is fair game depending on what kind of return you can get, although I keep some of the younger guys like McCann, Guentzel and Pettersson unless the offer is impossible to refuse.

For forwards, Kessel and Hornqvist are my priorities to get rid of. Love both guys, but I think they're weighing this team down, both financially and from a talent standpoint. We need more well-rounded guys, not high priced guys that have severe limitations on who they can play with.

Horny has become and anchor on his line. Probably the worst hands on the team. I love what he does in front of the net, but it's just not paying off like we need it to anymore. Need to find a different net front presence that can still contribute in open ice and help the offense get into the zone in the first place. Horny is pretty much useless until the offense gets set up and he can get in front of the goalie.

Kessel....man, I have a the biggest love/hate with him. When he gets on a roll, I love the guy. But that's been few and far between this season. I appreciate his back checking this season. I think he's made it a point of emphasis this year and may even help explain the lack of goals (we know Phil tires quickly, and I suspect an increased effort on the back check has led to less offensive output), but it's still not enough. He's still a liability defensively and pretty much in anything that doesn't involve shooting the puck. He's decent carrying the puck and with passing...but not as good as he thinks he is at either, which leads to a ton of overconfidence turnovers. And that's just not working anymore. Replace him with a guy or two who might not be quite as skilled as a scorer but is a better all around player and is better at playing within his own abilities and I think that puts the whole team forward.

Defense.....god. I have no idea. I really felt this season that we had a #1 and #2 in Letang/Dumo (when both were healthy), then a bunch of #5, #6 and #7 guys filling out the rest of the roster. Just didn't really have that strong #3/#4 pairing to really round out the rotation. And they all felt out of sync all season.

Letang, when he's great, is still one of the best. When he isn't, he's real bad. All the people calling for him to be part of the Norris conversation have been real quiet this series. I have no idea what to do, here. I'd want to keep him, but I also feel like keeping him feeds into the current issue of hanging on too tightly to bigger name players. I'm very conflicted here.

Probably prefer to keep Dumo. He's a steady and consistent hand, and that'll be needed.

Schultz is fine. Pettersson has faired well season and is trending up.

Maatta and JJ need to go.

Gudbranson is whatever. If he stays as a bottom pair guy, that's fine. If we retool the D enough that he's no longer needed, that's fine too.

Murray is stuck in the Andy Dalton zone. Just good enough that you don't want to get rid of him. But no longer good enough that you can fully have confidence in him, either.


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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Islanders 4-14-19
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:33 pm 
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Poltargyst wrote:
Amazing to me how people turn on coaches. Sully has proven he can win the Stanley Cup, but it's been a couple of years since he's won one, so it's time for him to go.


Hockey is weird like this. In any other sport a championship buys a coach a pass on 5 full years of mediocrity.

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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Islanders 4-14-19
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:49 pm 
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fractalsteel wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
Blow it up...let Sully work with some youngsters again


First thing I'd blow up is Sully.


I'm not saying he doesn't have his issues.

But this team's defense and goaltending is not NHL-caliber.

And they are slow now.

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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Islanders 4-14-19
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:54 pm 
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Agreed Jeemie. Sully is not the issue. 65-70% of the roster should be replaced because they are slow, don’t skate that hard or just aren’t that good. Keep the core guys, replace the rest to the extent possible.


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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Islanders 4-14-19
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:05 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
fractalsteel wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
Blow it up...let Sully work with some youngsters again


First thing I'd blow up is Sully.


I'm not saying he doesn't have his issues.

But this team's defense and goaltending is not NHL-caliber.

And they are slow now.


I think this D corp is as good as the corp that won in 2017. What I would love to see is a very fast D man to replace some of the slugs. Not sure they have something like that in WBS.
Murray is an NHL quality tender but now he is inconsistent like the rest of this years team.
As far as the speed thing, what you are seeing is the rest of the league copying the speed model. It really has caught on in the East more so than out West. That is why you see the Pens look a bit sluggish when they play a lot of the Eastern teams. Don't forget, when they went out West and had success they looked faster than their opponents.

They need a talent infusion but due to the cups runs they had little left in draft capital to add such. That might be the downfall getting back to another cup.

I'd love to build a 4th line like the Islander have. That might be what gets the Pens back amongst the better teams in the league. That is where I would start and I'd think long and hard about getting rid of Hornqvist.

Sully has been an average NHL HC since the middle of last season IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Islanders 4-14-19
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:57 pm 
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As bad as it is to see the Pens get bounced (unless a miracle happens) nothing is worse than being a Tampa fan right now. On the verge of making tee times after 4 straight losses.


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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Islanders 4-14-19
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:37 pm 
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Orangesteel wrote:
As bad as it is to see the Pens get bounced (unless a miracle happens) nothing is worse than being a Tampa fan right now. On the verge of making tee times after 4 straight losses.


Was thinking the same thing. We have been pretty inconsistent this year. The Lightning were the best team in the league and getting smoked. Sucks.

Will the Blue Jackets play the Islanders or the Caps?


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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Islanders 4-14-19
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:54 am 
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Styles make the matchup.

This is a bad style matchup for the Pens. It shows up in players looking slow or indecisive. Some of these players were flying around not so long ago, now look lost. Can't even get things started.

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 Post subject: Re: Pens vs Islanders 4-14-19
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:34 am 
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Mike Sullivan... Going down in Penguins lore as the second coach to neuter 2 generational talents

Pride goeth before the fall and all that.
His arrogance needs to be curbed this off-season

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