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 Post subject: Re: The Combine
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:35 pm 
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FC wrote:
I prefer to have these disagreements over a podcast so I could explain my positions better but

I would not waste a second round draft pick Devin Bush.

My god he is an awful football player.

NEVER EVER EVER around the ball unless he is schemed into position.

3 year starter who failed to register 50 solo tackles in a single season

3 year starter who created 1 turnover in his career. Zero forced fumbles or recoveries which goes back to my previous point of never being around the ball

I have never seen a linebacker dominated at the point of attack by Wide receivers before I scouted Bush

He will throw his body around at small skill position players..He is a poor tackler.

He is fucking awful in coverage and gets lost in zones....Easily manipulated out of passing lanes

I really like nothing about the player.

I could be here all day...I will stick with this. I hate many prospects. And the thing I am 100% sure of. They are no draftnicks left. Just simple minded folks who think they know what they are watching but in reality have no clue

I could not agree more...


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 Post subject: Re: The Combine
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:02 pm 
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While I'm the first to pooh pooh Devin Bush, I'll say one thing. IF you interviewed him and thought he was football smart enough to learn, I think he can do more than he was asked to do at Michigan. In other words, he hasn't really shown instincts or coverage ability, but he has athletic ability enough to make it work... just not here, where we need a start-capable and 3-down capable guy, not a project.

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 Post subject: Re: The Combine
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:14 pm 
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I just don't know. Someone with that kind of athleticism should have managed to make some kind of impact at some point in a three year career that involved no shortage of playing time. Just a total lack of impact, big, or splash plays. It's almost uncanny how vanilla he managed to be.


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 Post subject: Re: The Combine
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:06 pm 
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They almost never used him other than playing downhill-- go get ball. He should have have more success at that OR they should have dropped him in coverage more.

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 Post subject: Re: The Combine
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:04 pm 
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all due respect to my man FC, i heard about the same things on here about LVE and he looked pretty damn good as a rookie.

I'll go against the stream here and say in spite of his height i like devin bush.

and for the record, i dont think Bush is LVE im just not buying all the hate im reading here.

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 Post subject: Re: The Combine
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:03 pm 
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Charles Demarr wrote:
What do you guys think of Justin Layne?

A more agile, faster Brian Allen. 6'2 33" arms, got some ups with a 37.5" vert., and 11'2" broad jump, 6.90 3-cone and 4.50 40 shows faster than fast with agility. A WR-DB convert. He definitely knows how to tackle [130 tackles in 3 years] and has some decent ball skills. 3rd RND'er.


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 Post subject: Re: The Combine
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:56 pm 
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I'd be willing to bet 2nd, and in this group, could go higher than you think with that set of measurables and some solid tape to back it up. He does get handsy at times.


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 Post subject: Re: The Combine
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:47 pm 
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GreekSteel wrote:
all due respect to my man FC, i heard about the same things on here about LVE and he looked pretty damn good as a rookie.

I'll go against the stream here and say in spite of his height i like devin bush.

and for the record, i dont think Bush is LVE im just not buying all the hate im reading here.

Oh, dude... LVE was a far superior prospect/football player. And I know the concerns FC had are real to an extent-- just not his kind of player. Bush is fast and is the kind of guy many like... not my type, either.

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 Post subject: Re: The Combine
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:19 am 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
GreekSteel wrote:
all due respect to my man FC, i heard about the same things on here about LVE and he looked pretty damn good as a rookie.

I'll go against the stream here and say in spite of his height i like devin bush.

and for the record, i dont think Bush is LVE im just not buying all the hate im reading here.

Oh, dude... LVE was a far superior prospect/football player. And I know the concerns FC had are real to an extent-- just not his kind of player. Bush is fast and is the kind of guy many like... not my type, either.



i stated that i wasnt comparing him to LVE but i heard many of the same criticisms here...soft...cant get off blocks..cant tackle etc..

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 Post subject: Re: The Combine
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:41 am 
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FC is definitely harsh on ILB prospects about blocks and tackles. I am equally hard on them in coverage/going backwards. I'd say if you can find a guy we both like-- he might be a player. lol

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 Post subject: Re: The Combine
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:03 am 
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Juan Thornhill at free safety.


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 Post subject: Re: The Combine
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:35 am 
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cop1211 wrote:
Juan Thornhill at free safety.




like him alot

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 Post subject: Re: The Combine
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:45 am 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
FC is definitely harsh on ILB prospects about blocks and tackles. I am equally hard on them in coverage/going backwards. I'd say if you can find a guy we both like-- he might be a player. lol



And thats fair. Again, FC knows his stuff, but like a very strict dad sometimes he doesnt notice some of the good stuff his kids r doing lol.

Anyway Bush isnt my #1 pick for the Steelers at ILB, i'm just saying i wouldnt hate the pick. I'd be a little concerned with his height in coverage but at times that height can also be an advantage in terms of beating blocks, and getting to a ball carrier/receiver.

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 Post subject: Re: The Combine
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:59 am 
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Steelafan77 wrote:
Charles Demarr wrote:
What do you guys think of Justin Layne?

A more agile, faster Brian Allen. 6'2 33" arms, got some ups with a 37.5" vert., and 11'2" broad jump, 6.90 3-cone and 4.50 40 shows faster than fast with agility. A WR-DB convert. He definitely knows how to tackle [130 tackles in 3 years] and has some decent ball skills. 3rd RND'er.


Thanks 77, he seems to be rising right now.

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 Post subject: Re: The Combine
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:00 am 
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cop1211 wrote:
Juan Thornhill at free safety.


Athletic as hell. Look up some of his HS basketball tapes.

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 Post subject: Re: The Combine
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:30 pm 
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Any look at Blake Cashman ILB Minn? Looks like a Paul Posluszny like. Always around the ball.

http://youtu.be/QkzkZKUhseg

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 Post subject: Re: The Combine
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:39 pm 
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Steelafan77 wrote:
Charles Demarr wrote:
What do you guys think of Justin Layne?

A more agile, faster Brian Allen. 6'2 33" arms, got some ups with a 37.5" vert., and 11'2" broad jump, 6.90 3-cone and 4.50 40 shows faster than fast with agility. A WR-DB convert. He definitely knows how to tackle [130 tackles in 3 years] and has some decent ball skills. 3rd RND'er.

Wait, what?

Brian Allen vs Justin Layne
Height 6027 vs 6016
Weight 215 vs 192
40 4.43 vs 4.50
VJ 38 vs 37.5
BJ 10'10" vs 11'2"
SS 4.18 vs 4.09
3cone 6.64 vs 6.90

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 Post subject: Re: The Combine
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:59 pm 
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Come on B2B Allen was the closest player [on paper] currently on the roster. And you've seen Allen play. He's just not as athletically gifted on the field as he was in shorts. I think Layne is the better version is all. ;)

Where did you find your numbers for Allen? I see him listed at 6'2, 34.5" vert., and a 9'8" broad... http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/bri ... id=2558237

Layne is 6'2... https://www.nfl.com/prospects/justin-la ... bcb8fc6ac5

...anyway, I think the Brian Allen project is about to conclude. One would think Allen would at least be a special teams demon by now. I never see him take the field and when he does he does nothing with the opportunity.


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 Post subject: Re: The Combine
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:19 pm 
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But you said faster, that's all.

I used the exact combine measurements for height/weight for both, and best of combine or pro day for the jumps/drills.

Layne is 6016... 6' 1 3/4"

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 Post subject: Re: The Combine
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:47 pm 
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Yes. Faster. I think Layne plays much faster on the field than Allen. Allen ran a 4.48 at the combine but in games he looks like he runs a 5.0 is all I was meaning to say.


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 Post subject: Re: The Combine
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:25 am 
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Our coaching had him spinning. In college, he played really fast and well. I actually like Layne, but let's remember what rookies look like in our defense.

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 Post subject: Re: The Combine
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:40 am 
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If Brian Allen can’t see the field over Burns and Sensabaugh, he never will.


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 Post subject: Re: The Combine
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:41 am 
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Would it shock you if Brian Allen went to a different team and ended up playing? Or went to the AAF and starred? I have very little faith in the Steelers recent choices of who gets reps in the defensive secondary beyond Joe Haden.

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 Post subject: Re: The Combine
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:23 pm 
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This article goes into the real truth of the combine. I went to it one year and it just sucked becasue the TV coverage is better.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2613 ... fl-combine

Quote:
INDIANAPOLIS -- An NFL general manager stands in his suite at Lucas Oil Stadium watching the combine workouts. I'm not using his name; even though he's merely admitting what everyone privately acknowledges, he worries about saying it aloud because the combine is such a growth industry for the NFL. After years of coming to Indianapolis, he now understands that his presence here -- everyone's presence -- is simply to play a small part in a televised show, even if real futures are at stake. The players are running on the field down below, and they are running on the screens playing all around him, broadcast by the NFL Network. From his suite, this GM can barely read the names and numbers on their jerseys, so he watches on TV. Like most guys, he has an iPad where the stats and scores and results automatically update in his draft software. Except the results are always posted faster on the live television broadcast than in his own system. That's what cues his sense of dull dread: If I can just watch this on television, and if I don't even really care about the results anyway, then why exactly am I here?


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Wednesday night, my first at the combine, first stop, first drink: a Guinness at the J.W. Marriott hotel bar, the front porch of the NFL combine. I nursed the beer and watched the football world stalk the room, looking for someone who might have information or want information. An agent named Kyle Strongin pulled up a chair. A long time ago, he worked at Ole Miss, which is in the town where I live, so we swapped Coach O stories and caught up on life. This year, he had three clients at the combine: Wisconsin running back Alec Ingold, South Carolina lineman Zack Bailey and Clemson cult hero receiver Hunter Renfrow.

He liked his guys, and he pulled out his phone to show me a picture that kind of sums up the singular question hovering over the combine: What can a team tell about a player by looking at him run, lift weights and flex? Kyle's photo showed the now-viral image of Ole Miss' D.K. Metcalf standing with his shirt off, his chest swollen and rippled. D.K. sent me two crying-laughing emojis when I texted him after it first hit Twitter, when his 1.9 percent body fat melted the internet. In Kyle's photoshopped version, next to him was Renfrow, short and skinny, looking exactly like the kind of player a teammate might mistake for a manager, or maybe a waterboy -- which actually happened his freshman year at Clemson.

Then Kyle's photo listed both their stats against Alabama.

Renfrow put up better numbers.

All Renfrow has ever done is catch big passes in big games and help his team win. The most recent Super Bowl MVP, Julian Edelman, is a player like him. And still, Renfrow's agent spent the week of the combine working to convince people to trust themselves and not a series of athletic tests that don't actually reveal much about a football player's future. That's the funny thing. The combine is a place where you can watch the battle between facts and narrative play out: Even though the smart football minds said they didn't learn much from the results, the drills being broadcast created an image that a player would have to struggle to shed. Hunter was in town fighting group-think about his size and speed. One scouting guy told Renfrow's agent, "I wouldn't draft him but he'd start for us."

So Renfrow needed to do well enough to let his career define him instead of these times and reps. Strongin told me that Hunter would run his 40-yard dash on Saturday. If he could score in the low 4.5s, then a team will draft him in the third or fourth round as a starting slot receiver.

If he ran much slower than that, he might not get drafted at all.


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The scouts know this week doesn't matter, but the league knows that fans will watch on television and that talk radio and popular culture will turn this into an essential event on the annual sporting calendar. That's the tension that everyone can feel even if they can't articulate it. The whole thing has the whiff of reality television, with a twist: As these kinds of drills become less and less relevant to the best minds in the game, they become more and more important in the culture. Imagine if getting kicked off "The Bachelor" meant you had to stay single forever.


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The scouting combine doesn't do much to help answer the single most important scouting question in the NFL. The truth is, you could cancel the combine and fire all the scouts and front-office people and get the owner's grandson to pull names out of a hat, and the kid would do better than most teams currently do in the NFL.

No wonder everyone gets so drunk at Prime.


Quote:
The teams correctly assume that the answers they seek lie hidden inside the players, and yet the combine gives them all just 15-minute interviews amid the circus of other activity. Some teams would rather the entire week be devoted to interviews, along with the invaluable medicals exams. Franchises are forever fumbling in the dark for clues. They all try a forever-changing system of interrogations, mock-therapy sessions and psych evals. A few, like the Colts and the Patriots, have utilized non-football leadership and character experts who are fully integrated into their facility and staff. Most, however, have not.

When I asked around in Indy, I was told the reason is shockingly simple: many coaches believe their own myth about being leaders of men and experts in the realms of character and motivation. They cannot admit in public that they really don't know much about any of those things. Maybe in every NFL facility there is a person or a group of people who could win games, maybe even The Game, if the people above them could stop preening long enough to listen.

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 Post subject: Re: The Combine
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:58 pm 
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quite a good read, brick... thanks

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