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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin Monday Presser
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:13 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
QB to either throw a quick deep ball if he likes the matchup and the coverage ...


I think this is what Haley meant when he said how the defense is playing changes things.

Apparently, the ability to be aggressive means taking a shot with a deep jump ball when you have 1-on-1 coverage. Tomlin needs to squash that - the receivers are not defending the interception and not getting separation consistently (probably because nothing is done to set those plays up).

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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin Monday Presser
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:35 pm 
bradshaw2ben wrote:
It's really hard to know when a misconnected pass is the QB's fault, the receiver's fault, the OC's fault, or just a good play by the defense. I think the temptation is to believe the narrative that supports your beliefs.

I tend to push back on "the QB is 90% of the problem folks, because that's patently false. With the film and the cryptic comments/explanations afterwards, we're left to look at breadcrumbs and tea leaves and very little evidence. All I can do is call it like I see it-- the structure of the primary pass game is for one on ones on the outside to run up the field outside of the numbers and for QB to either throw a quick deep ball if he likes the matchup and the coverage OR then there are short crossers underneath and the plan is to hit one of those guys with the best chance to get YAC. Either way, ball comes out quickly. We rarely run slants any more and only JJSS and AB get pattern variation.

After seeing Ben go kind of John Wayne and seeing not just that he's frustrated with the OC but seeing which plays Ben called when he called them-- utilized the intermediate middle of the field on the two plays we know he called-- it's done nothing to dissuade me from my stance that the OC is a huge part of the problem. Who you want to blame for hiring and enabling him is open to some debate. That he is a huge problem should be obvious to everyone besides Lynch.


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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin Monday Presser
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:41 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
It's really hard to know when a misconnected pass is the QB's fault, the receiver's fault, the OC's fault, or just a good play by the defense. I think the temptation is to believe the narrative that supports your beliefs.

I tend to push back on "the QB is 90% of the problem folks, because that's patently false. With the film and the cryptic comments/explanations afterwards, we're left to look at breadcrumbs and tea leaves and very little evidence. All I can do is call it like I see it-- the structure of the primary pass game is for one on ones on the outside to run up the field outside of the numbers and for QB to either throw a quick deep ball if he likes the matchup and the coverage OR then there are short crossers underneath and the plan is to hit one of those guys with the best chance to get YAC. Either way, ball comes out quickly. We rarely run slants any more and only JJSS and AB get pattern variation.

After seeing Ben go kind of John Wayne and seeing not just that he's frustrated with the OC but seeing which plays Ben called when he called them-- utilized the intermediate middle of the field on the two plays we know he called-- it's done nothing to dissuade me from my stance that the OC is a huge part of the problem. Who you want to blame for hiring and enabling him is open to some debate. That he is a huge problem should be obvious to everyone besides Lynch.



I am one of those 90% folks.

And while I will grant that 90% is hyperbole. But when have we seen Ben so off on his throws? We can't blame the playcalling or the defense winning the play when I see guys dropping passes with no one around them or Ben missing wide open guys. We can't blame the OL- they've given up 2 sacks in the last month. Now a personality conflict could be an issue but that doesn't explain why Ben is missing throws that he normally makes consistently. High throws or regularly coming up short on long throws usually means he isn't setting his feet and trying to rely solely on his arm to make those passes. Could he be hurt, could his arm not be what it was? I dunno, but let's work on getting him at least driving on the ball instead of chucking it up on 3rd and 1 or hitting the TE behind some aggressive run stopping LBs.

If I were to offer a solution, the TE hasn't gotten the ball nearly enough in the offense this year. This offense sorta feels like it did back when we had a lot of trouble pass blocking and the TE became a 3rd tackle (Mike Adams).

I will say that this is the part where playcalling is at fault is its not trying to help Ben out by getting defenses out of their original schemes. Right now Ben looks like he's forcing the ball to Brown instead of having options to go to anyone else but Bell. For instance, how about getting Ben some rhythm throws that involve the TE 7 yards beyond the LoS out of those 12 sets instead of just running it? When this offense was clicking last year and the year before Ben was hitting Gimble, James, Nix enough and early that the defense had to adjust. Then he could get to those passes vs single coverage downfield with open WRs.

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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin Monday Presser
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:55 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
QB to either throw a quick deep ball if he likes the matchup and the coverage ...


I think this is what Haley meant when he said how the defense is playing changes things.

Apparently, the ability to be aggressive means taking a shot with a deep jump ball when you have 1-on-1 coverage. Tomlin needs to squash that - the receivers are not defending the interception and not getting separation consistently (probably because nothing is done to set those plays up).

On Bryant's ball, Ben led him perfectly-- Bryant took a detour around the CB, giving up inside position. Just pressing right now or something.

You're right though-- without some stop routes or post/dig routes, the DBs are bailing on those deep balls.

The other thing I'm reminded of by the current re-watch... all the drag routes across the LOS or just barely beyond results in an inordinate number of batted down passes. Annoying as shit. Rinse, repeat.

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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin Monday Presser
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:00 pm 
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VeritasSteel wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
It's really hard to know when a misconnected pass is the QB's fault, the receiver's fault, the OC's fault, or just a good play by the defense. I think the temptation is to believe the narrative that supports your beliefs.

I tend to push back on "the QB is 90% of the problem folks, because that's patently false. With the film and the cryptic comments/explanations afterwards, we're left to look at breadcrumbs and tea leaves and very little evidence. All I can do is call it like I see it-- the structure of the primary pass game is for one on ones on the outside to run up the field outside of the numbers and for QB to either throw a quick deep ball if he likes the matchup and the coverage OR then there are short crossers underneath and the plan is to hit one of those guys with the best chance to get YAC. Either way, ball comes out quickly. We rarely run slants any more and only JJSS and AB get pattern variation.

After seeing Ben go kind of John Wayne and seeing not just that he's frustrated with the OC but seeing which plays Ben called when he called them-- utilized the intermediate middle of the field on the two plays we know he called-- it's done nothing to dissuade me from my stance that the OC is a huge part of the problem. Who you want to blame for hiring and enabling him is open to some debate. That he is a huge problem should be obvious to everyone besides Lynch.



I am one of those 90% folks.

And while I will grant that 90% is hyperbole. But when have we seen Ben so off on his throws? We can't blame the playcalling or the defense winning the play when I see guys dropping passes with no one around them or Ben missing wide open guys. We can't blame the OL- they've given up 2 sacks in the last month. Now a personality conflict could be an issue but that doesn't explain why Ben is missing throws that he normally makes consistently. High throws or regularly coming up short on long throws usually means he isn't setting his feet and trying to rely solely on his arm to make those passes. Could he be hurt, could his arm not be what it was? I dunno, but let's work on getting him at least driving on the ball instead of chucking it up on 3rd and 1 or hitting the TE behind some aggressive run stopping LBs.

If I were to offer a solution, the TE hasn't gotten the ball nearly enough in the offense this year. This offense sorta feels like it did back when we had a lot of trouble pass blocking and the TE became a 3rd tackle (Mike Adams).

I will say that this is the part where playcalling is at fault is its not trying to help Ben out by getting defenses out of their original schemes. Right now Ben looks like he's forcing the ball to Brown instead of having options to go to anyone else but Bell. For instance, how about getting Ben some rhythm throws that involve the TE 7 yards beyond the LoS out of those 12 sets instead of just running it? When this offense was clicking last year and the year before Ben was hitting Gimble, James, Nix enough and early that the defense had to adjust. Then he could get to those passes vs single coverage downfield with open WRs.

Where are the missed throws? I'm re-watching the game right now... I am at 7:47 remaining in the 3rd quarter and I haven't seen a poor throw yet. He was late on a hole shot to AB on 2nd and long-- which meant AB was OOB by the time the ball got there, dropped a shotgun snap, and other than that, there has been ZERO to criticize about Ben's game. I think he was actually pretty damn good. I'm going to posit that you are watching on gameday with a lot of emotion and with unrealistic expectations, comparisons to straw men that don't exist in real life.

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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin Monday Presser
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:08 pm 
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The deep pass to Brown that AB short armed is a travesty. He cannot puss out on that catch. Ben deserves an apology on that one.

It shouldn’t come down to a single play like that, but in this dogshit offense brought to you by Tomley, it often does.


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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin Monday Presser
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:02 pm 
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Orangesteel wrote:
The deep pass to Brown that AB short armed is a travesty. He cannot puss out on that catch. Ben deserves an apology on that one.

It shouldn’t come down to a single play like that, but in this dogshit offense brought to you by Tomley, it often does.

Ben even dropped in away from the oncoming Safety, so AB had a play just inside the sideline.

Honestly, Ben has made some pretty downfield throws this year for a guy who hasn't hit many.

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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin Monday Presser
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:45 am 
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COR-TEN wrote:
All that may be true, but they were not at the top of their game on sunday. They were lazy and flat. How many pressures did the colts get? BR also got slammed a few times after launching passes in a hurry. The superman throw to AB he had his jersey being held from behind and a pocket rapidly closing. The Colts defensive front isn't great, and Bell had how many yards? Regardless of shoe string tackles.

I do believe the O line is one of the better ones in the league, and have said so since last year. But they were lackadaisical and forgot there was a game on sunday. At least for the first half, anyway.

I saw this too.
If anybody who has watched the Steelers for the last decade expected anything different from them the week after the bye, they just haven't been paying attention.

...and yet, The Steelers AND THEIR COACHES still overcame AS A TEAM and won it for the first time in 4 seasons, so...

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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin Monday Presser
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:08 pm 
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VeritasSteel wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
It's really hard to know when a misconnected pass is the QB's fault, the receiver's fault, the OC's fault, or just a good play by the defense. I think the temptation is to believe the narrative that supports your beliefs.

I tend to push back on "the QB is 90% of the problem folks, because that's patently false. With the film and the cryptic comments/explanations afterwards, we're left to look at breadcrumbs and tea leaves and very little evidence. All I can do is call it like I see it-- the structure of the primary pass game is for one on ones on the outside to run up the field outside of the numbers and for QB to either throw a quick deep ball if he likes the matchup and the coverage OR then there are short crossers underneath and the plan is to hit one of those guys with the best chance to get YAC. Either way, ball comes out quickly. We rarely run slants any more and only JJSS and AB get pattern variation.

After seeing Ben go kind of John Wayne and seeing not just that he's frustrated with the OC but seeing which plays Ben called when he called them-- utilized the intermediate middle of the field on the two plays we know he called-- it's done nothing to dissuade me from my stance that the OC is a huge part of the problem. Who you want to blame for hiring and enabling him is open to some debate. That he is a huge problem should be obvious to everyone besides Lynch.



I am one of those 90% folks.

And while I will grant that 90% is hyperbole. But when have we seen Ben so off on his throws? We can't blame the playcalling or the defense winning the play when I see guys dropping passes with no one around them or Ben missing wide open guys. We can't blame the OL- they've given up 2 sacks in the last month. Now a personality conflict could be an issue but that doesn't explain why Ben is missing throws that he normally makes consistently. High throws or regularly coming up short on long throws usually means he isn't setting his feet and trying to rely solely on his arm to make those passes. Could he be hurt, could his arm not be what it was? I dunno, but let's work on getting him at least driving on the ball instead of chucking it up on 3rd and 1 or hitting the TE behind some aggressive run stopping LBs.

If I were to offer a solution, the TE hasn't gotten the ball nearly enough in the offense this year. This offense sorta feels like it did back when we had a lot of trouble pass blocking and the TE became a 3rd tackle (Mike Adams).

I will say that this is the part where playcalling is at fault is its not trying to help Ben out by getting defenses out of their original schemes. Right now Ben looks like he's forcing the ball to Brown instead of having options to go to anyone else but Bell. For instance, how about getting Ben some rhythm throws that involve the TE 7 yards beyond the LoS out of those 12 sets instead of just running it? When this offense was clicking last year and the year before Ben was hitting Gimble, James, Nix enough and early that the defense had to adjust. Then he could get to those passes vs single coverage downfield with open WRs.

Good post, Veritas.
I too am one of the "90%"

Aside, it's fascinating to watch as B2B repeatedly succumbs to the very temptation he points to by excoriating Haley again, but I digress...

JJSS is a rookie...you can't tell me he hasn't earned - even snatched away from MB - the right to execute the pattern variations he's been shining in, and this only very recently

Also, perhaps It took an obcene amount of time for Ben to see McDonald WTF open because he hasn't acclimated himself to looking that way sooner.
But how is that Haley's fault?!
:roll:

...Ben might not be acclimated to notice that more quicly yet, but if history is any indicator, he can learn and adjust and react...

My hope is that this old dog #7 still can, and soon

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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin Monday Presser
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:14 pm 
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Team is totally out of sync, Ben hasn't had the kind of success he could have or should have had thusfar... still statistically the 7th-best QB in the NFL this year, 3rd in the AFC, headed for the Pro Bowl... and 7-2.

But, yeah, he's 90% of the problem.

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