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 Post subject: Re: Haley: Fuck you Ben
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:34 pm 
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Donnie Brasco wrote:
Stinger8 wrote:
fortythree wrote:
Why should Ben respect Haley? He has no track record of success in football. Nepotism is the only reason he has a job.


Dude he developed one of the most revered offenses in football history, remember Warner, Fitzgerald, and Boldin. Took em to the super bowl which they would have won if not for a herculean play by Deebo, and maybe an even better play by Ben and Holmes.

Listen you are entitled to your own opinion BUT not your own facts. SMH :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:


How many points did that vaunted offense put up until they allowed Warner to sling it around? Haley fucking sucks as a playcaller


In fact, one could certainly give Todd Haley some cred for the Steelers most recen Lombardi, having kept his prolific offense under wraps for three quarters.


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 Post subject: Re: Haley: Fuck you Ben
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:38 pm 
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seabs926 wrote:
The other thing I didn't like seeing from Haley, when Gay(?) and Shazier both missed tackles on the 3rd down play along the Steelers' sideline, he absolutely lost his mind. Let Tomlin and Butler deal with that, you should be worried about your perfectly average offense. Without the D bailing our offense out, we're hovering right around .500.

#6 offense
#3 defense

that was before this week

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 Post subject: Re: Haley: Fuck you Ben
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:39 pm 
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SteelThrillsseeker wrote:
seabs926 wrote:
The other thing I didn't like seeing from Haley, when Gay(?) and Shazier both missed tackles on the 3rd down play along the Steelers' sideline, he absolutely lost his mind. Let Tomlin and Butler deal with that, you should be worried about your perfectly average offense. Without the D bailing our offense out, we're hovering right around .500.



I missed this and will have to go back and re-watch. With this and the other posts in this thread I feel like if something will prevent or is preventing this team from going all the way this year it's the missing TEAM comradery. These festering, lingering blips are not and will do us no good.

Our team is incredibly tight- the players with each other and the players with Tomlin. The rest? Who knows. Does it matter? Not if the first couple parts of the equation are as they are.

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 Post subject: Re: Haley: Fuck you Ben
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:48 pm 
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seabs926 wrote:
The other thing I didn't like seeing from Haley, when Gay(?) and Shazier both missed tackles on the 3rd down play along the Steelers' sideline, he absolutely lost his mind. Let Tomlin and Butler deal with that, you should be worried about your perfectly average offense. Without the D bailing our offense out, we're hovering right around .500.


I noticed that too. I was in a bit of denial. I thought it had to be one of the other coaches. But nope, it was Todd. If I was a defensive player on that team, that would really piss me off.

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 Post subject: Re: Haley: Fuck you Ben
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:58 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
seabs926 wrote:
The other thing I didn't like seeing from Haley, when Gay(?) and Shazier both missed tackles on the 3rd down play along the Steelers' sideline, he absolutely lost his mind. Let Tomlin and Butler deal with that, you should be worried about your perfectly average offense. Without the D bailing our offense out, we're hovering right around .500.

#6 offense
#3 defense

that was before this week

Does that have anything to do with the way he acted on the sidelines?

What was the point of the post? It doesn't seem to fit your narrative that Haley sucks and Ben is still playing well. You seem to want it both ways - often being unable to admit that it's the entire offense (including Ben) that's average. Rarely do we have both good play calls and execution with any consistency. I don't care about DVOA rankings, I care about points.


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 Post subject: Re: Haley: Fuck you Ben
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:09 pm 
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Donnie Brasco wrote:
Stinger8 wrote:
fortythree wrote:
Why should Ben respect Haley? He has no track record of success in football. Nepotism is the only reason he has a job.


Dude he developed one of the most revered offenses in football history, remember Warner, Fitzgerald, and Boldin. Took em to the super bowl which they would have won if not for a herculean play by Deebo, and maybe an even better play by Ben and Holmes.

Listen you are entitled to your own opinion BUT not your own facts. SMH :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:


How many points did that vaunted offense put up until they allowed Warner to sling it around? Haley fucking sucks as a playcaller


Oh the offense was indeed vaunted, designed by Todd, called by Todd and lauded by many as elite, one for the ages etc.

Does not address the point that if not for 2 of the single most phenomenal plays in a super bowl game (and you are very lucky to have 1 play like that forget 2) they would have beat us. The same team Haley designed and developed the offense for, had us on the ropes needing a superlative, one of a kind play at the end of the game to beat.. I know it totally disputes the point of "what has he done before" but unfortunately it totally shatters the assertion that he has never had success. Can we move on from that now??

In the super bowl game the Cardinals offense the one designed and executed by Haley, was significantly better than our's, here are the stats, sorry facts matter.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... 010crd.htm

The Cardinals ran the ball 10 times (vs the Steelers 22 attempts) so I guess the Ol Todd did i fact let em sling it almost the whole game. Does that refute your point? Sorry facts matter.

FTR I am ambivalent about Haley but this site is just becoming a bitch fest (112 QBR versus 93, 377 yards passing versus 256, 407 total yards versus 292 Haleys O bitch slapped ours :lol: :lol: :lol: ). Real lack of objectivity from about 75% of the posters. SAD :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:


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 Post subject: Re: Haley: Fuck you Ben
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:39 pm 
Many people say that was Whizs offense and Todd just wore the headset


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 Post subject: Re: Haley: Fuck you Ben
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:48 pm 
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seabs926 wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
seabs926 wrote:
The other thing I didn't like seeing from Haley, when Gay(?) and Shazier both missed tackles on the 3rd down play along the Steelers' sideline, he absolutely lost his mind. Let Tomlin and Butler deal with that, you should be worried about your perfectly average offense. Without the D bailing our offense out, we're hovering right around .500.

#6 offense
#3 defense

that was before this week

Does that have anything to do with the way he acted on the sidelines?

What was the point of the post? It doesn't seem to fit your narrative that Haley sucks and Ben is still playing well. You seem to want it both ways - often being unable to admit that it's the entire offense (including Ben) that's average. Rarely do we have both good play calls and execution with any consistency. I don't care about DVOA rankings, I care about points.

To be perfectly clear:
A. I was responding to the notion that the D has bailed out the O, which I think is false
B. I, too, care about points-- but execution is good on a play by play basis (DVOA).
C. IMO, points are left on the field because of play calling and play design-- not enough easy plays in situational football. No whiteboard halfcourt plays/inbounds plays/faceoff plays.

Ben, AB, the OL... way better than average, and I'm not sure what measure you'd like to use to support your assertion.

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 Post subject: Re: Haley: Fuck you Ben
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:16 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
To be perfectly clear:
A. I was responding to the notion that the D has bailed out the O, which I think is false
B. I, too, care about points-- but execution is good on a play by play basis (DVOA).
C. IMO, points are left on the field because of play calling and play design-- not enough easy plays in situational football. No whiteboard halfcourt plays/inbounds plays/faceoff plays.

Ben, AB, the OL... way better than average, and I'm not sure what measure you'd like to use to support your assertion.

'Bailed out' might have been extreme, but the D is certainly pulling their weight more than the O. I'm not sure there's been a single game where the O has been better than the D.

Play calling is part of DVOA so by your account play by play calling is good as well.

I see nearly as many execution issues as poor play design. I don't like Haley but it's also difficult to score points when your QB throws an INT without looking where he's throwing, your star WR lets an easy pass go through his hands, your QB drops a snap in 2 minute drill. That was all in the first half and probably cost us a total of 7 points.

To the bolded, what measure are you using that the execution has been better than play calling? I'm using points, which are the single most important barometer. We're basically smack dab in the middle of the pack.


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 Post subject: Re: Haley: Fuck you Ben
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:10 pm 
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I'm not sure there's been a single game where the O has been better than the D.
I would say this week is a pretty good example.

Yes, execution has been an issue on both sides of the ball. You have to tackle, you have to make blocks that are basic, you have to catch the football, you have to not get penalties.

The only difference between us, as far as I can tell, is I'm the one who thinks the QB has the most issues to deal with and who is performing remarkably well, considering. I have a lot less patience with guys missing tackles, receivers dropping balls, McDonald just plain giving up on a scramble play, when he could have had a big gainer with minimum extra effort, with OL whiffing on guys in pass pro (despite regular starting lineup working together), with Jesse James and other wings on the FG unit getting abused all year long... than I do with anything Ben has done this year. I have massive respect for what he has on his plate. Sometimes I feel like the criticism here is just like guys on the sidelines or in the huddle getting pissed that the QB didn't see someone open and get him the ball. Dude is doing that the majority of the time, and considering how little separation his receivers get, whether by design or talent or predictability, I'm amazed he makes as many plays as he does.

The plays you make can be, and often are wayyyyy more important than the ones you miss or mistakes you make. Dude has been making more plays than he gives up for a long time now, and it really hasn't changed. This supporting cast has to make some plays for him. This OC has to make his on-field life better, not worse.

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 Post subject: Re: Haley: Fuck you Ben
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:12 pm 
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and that deep throw to Bryant was on the money-- Bryant ran around the DB instead of continuing his route the way JuJuSS did later. If Bryant and Ab (on the play where he was flagged for OPI) just keep running up the field instead of looping or slowing down to push off, that's two likely completions.

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 Post subject: Re: Haley: Fuck you Ben
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:32 pm 
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Haley now says he was yelling at another "coach." Whoever the fuck that might be.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/11/ha ... lisberger/

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 Post subject: Re: Haley: Fuck you Ben
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:34 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
Haley now says he was yelling at another "coach." Whoever the fuck that might be.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/11/ha ... lisberger/

reportedly Danny Smith, for unknown reasons

I just read that multiple players were lined up wrong on the play, not all of them came to the sideline, then the team lined up for same play, again with multiple players misaligned.

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 Post subject: Re: Haley: Fuck you Ben
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:35 pm 
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I'd say anytime my D can hold the other team to 17 points or less I'm pretty happy. If our O, with the talent it has on it - even with a shitty OC, can't regularly score more than 24 points, I'd say the D is bailing out the O, more than the other way around.


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 Post subject: Re: Haley: Fuck you Ben
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:41 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
COR-TEN wrote:
Haley now says he was yelling at another "coach." Whoever the fuck that might be.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/11/ha ... lisberger/

reportedly Danny Smith, for unknown reasons

I just read that multiple players were lined up wrong on the play, not all of them came to the sideline, then the team lined up for same play, again with multiple players misaligned.

As I stated on Sunday....My first live reaction was that he was yelling at Fichtner (was right there when Haley was yelling in his direction and kind of acted like it was him). I was wondering if he or Tomlin lets Fichtner have a say-so in 2 pt. play calls/designs or something.


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 Post subject: Re: Haley: Fuck you Ben
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:54 pm 
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DP39 wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
COR-TEN wrote:
Haley now says he was yelling at another "coach." Whoever the fuck that might be.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/11/ha ... lisberger/

reportedly Danny Smith, for unknown reasons

I just read that multiple players were lined up wrong on the play, not all of them came to the sideline, then the team lined up for same play, again with multiple players misaligned.

As I stated on Sunday....My first live reaction was that he was yelling at Fichtner (was right there when Haley was yelling in his direction and kind of acted like it was him). I was wondering if he or Tomlin lets Fichtner have a say-so in 2 pt. play calls/designs or something.


I think everyone is missing the point

How in the fuck is no one apparently on the same page whether we're gonna go for 2 as soon as we hit the Red Zone?

It should have been abundantly clear about 3 plays prior to Vance hauling in the pass

Tomlin: If we get the TD we're going for 2.

Then he should have told Todd/Randy at the same time who had responsibility for the 2 point play


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 Post subject: Re: Haley: Fuck you Ben
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:51 pm 
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DP39 wrote:
I'd say anytime my D can hold the other team to 17 points or less I'm pretty happy. If our O, with the talent it has on it - even with a shitty OC, can't regularly score more than 24 points, I'd say the D is bailing out the O, more than the other way around.

Except that we all know and recognize that the offense is working its ass off to protect the D. Using all the play clock, running the football with impunity. Short pass game with lots of completions. Playing for possession. This team truly works symbiotically.

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 Post subject: Re: Haley: Fuck you Ben
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:05 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
DP39 wrote:
I'd say anytime my D can hold the other team to 17 points or less I'm pretty happy. If our O, with the talent it has on it - even with a shitty OC, can't regularly score more than 24 points, I'd say the D is bailing out the O, more than the other way around.

Except that we all know and recognize that the offense is working its ass off to protect the D. Using al the play clock, running the football with impunity. Short pass game with lots of completions. Playing for possession. This team truly works symbiotically.

Then your issue should be as much about the overall offensive strategy than the play calling. It's clearly Tomlin's mandate to slow things down. But I'm sure that's all Haley's fault.

And you're right about the deep ball to Bryant. It hit him in stride, but at no point in time did he have inside position on the CB. The CB ran that route for Bryant. Bad decision by Ben to throw and expectedly bad play from Bryant. I'm not sure he's ever attacked the ball in the air, he always lets it come to him.


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 Post subject: Re: Haley: Fuck you Ben
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:37 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
Haley now says he was yelling at another "coach." Whoever the fuck that might be.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/11/ha ... lisberger/


Fichtner.

Tomlin overruled Haley and went for 2. Then Ben and Fichtner called the 2 pt play, per Ben.

Haley was yelling to "get the fucking play in."

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 Post subject: Re: Haley: Fuck you Ben
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:38 pm 
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DP39 wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
COR-TEN wrote:
Haley now says he was yelling at another "coach." Whoever the fuck that might be.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/11/ha ... lisberger/

reportedly Danny Smith, for unknown reasons

I just read that multiple players were lined up wrong on the play, not all of them came to the sideline, then the team lined up for same play, again with multiple players misaligned.

As I stated on Sunday....My first live reaction was that he was yelling at Fichtner (was right there when Haley was yelling in his direction and kind of acted like it was him). I was wondering if he or Tomlin lets Fichtner have a say-so in 2 pt. play calls/designs or something.


Fichtner designed most/all of their 2 pt plays.

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 Post subject: Re: Haley: Fuck you Ben
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:03 pm 
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seabs926 wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
DP39 wrote:
I'd say anytime my D can hold the other team to 17 points or less I'm pretty happy. If our O, with the talent it has on it - even with a shitty OC, can't regularly score more than 24 points, I'd say the D is bailing out the O, more than the other way around.

Except that we all know and recognize that the offense is working its ass off to protect the D. Using al the play clock, running the football with impunity. Short pass game with lots of completions. Playing for possession. This team truly works symbiotically.

Then your issue should be as much about the overall offensive strategy than the play calling. It's clearly Tomlin's mandate to slow things down. But I'm sure that's all Haley's fault.

And you're right about the deep ball to Bryant. It hit him in stride, but at no point in time did he have inside position on the CB. The CB ran that route for Bryant. Bad decision by Ben to throw and expectedly bad play from Bryant. I'm not sure he's ever attacked the ball in the air, he always lets it come to him.

the CB was outside and deep when the throw was let go. Bryant ran around him, to the outside to tray and get to the ball in the air.

And, yes, I assume Tomlin is the one who wants to protect the D.

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 Post subject: Re: Haley: Fuck you Ben
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:23 am 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
the CB was outside and deep when the throw was let go. Bryant ran around him, to the outside to tray and get to the ball in the air.

And, yes, I assume Tomlin is the one who wants to protect the D.

At no point during the route did Bryant have inside leverage on the CB. Just an ill advised throw coupled with poor effort by Bryant to prevent the INT.

I'm glad you're coming around to the idea that Haley isn't the main reason this offense isn't performing the way we though it would at the beginning of the season. Everyone has played a key part in the results.


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 Post subject: Re: Haley: Fuck you Ben
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:43 am 
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seabs926 wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
the CB was outside and deep when the throw was let go. Bryant ran around him, to the outside to tray and get to the ball in the air.

And, yes, I assume Tomlin is the one who wants to protect the D.

At no point during the route did Bryant have inside leverage on the CB. Just an ill advised throw coupled with poor effort by Bryant to prevent the INT.

I'm glad you're coming around to the idea that Haley isn't the main reason this offense isn't performing the way we though it would at the beginning of the season. Everyone has played a key part in the results.

Mostly because they're sick of his shit. When three stud players on your offense are publicly carping, what do you think they say and do behind closed doors?

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 Post subject: Re: Haley: Fuck you Ben
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:12 am 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Mostly because their sick of his shit. When three stud players on your offense are publicly carping, what do you think they say and do behind closed doors?

How they feel and what they say about him has no bearing. I see strategy, play calling, play design, and execution issues continually hold this team back from scoring more points. My entire point has been the blame (or majority of it) shouldn't fall on one individual.


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 Post subject: Re: Haley: Fuck you Ben
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:35 am 
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seabs926 wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Mostly because their sick of his shit. When three stud players on your offense are publicly carping, what do you think they say and do behind closed doors?

How they feel and what they say about him has no bearing. I see strategy, play calling, play design, and execution issues continually hold this team back from scoring more points. My entire point has been the blame (or majority of it) shouldn't fall on one individual.
I agree with this completely. There are too many moving parts to blame one singular player or coach. But people like to run their narratives and agendas. I view it like an tonal equalizer in audio. Some games, the OC fucks up and gets turned to 7 or 8 on the blame scale. Others it's the QB, or OLine, or combination. Etc Etc. Sometimes you can be too good or have tremendous potential, and trip on your own feet based on a number of factors. The fact that Tomlin has this team at 7-2 is amazing considering how out of sync they are on offense, but a few key players on defense supplemented the success.

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