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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:26 am 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
It's true that spreading the ball around-- Ben is a point guard, after all-- is a sign that things are clicking. On the other hand, those other guys rarely got separation early in routes and dropped dimes laid out to them when they did. It's why a good offensive plan and play design is essential, even with loads of talent.


As Clan pointed out, there were times the other guys were open and Ben didn't go to them.

So it's a mixture of both.

I understand they sometimes got open but you have to deliver when called upon or you're not always going to get the ball just because you're open.

The INT play was an extreme example, but understand that Ben had a wide open TD on the play before, facing the same defense, and called the same play with a better WR-- logical that he thought he'd have a good shot at that post.


That's making an excuse for Ben...one you would NEVER make for Todd haley.

Come on, man. It was a bad decision.

If we're going to win the Super Bowl, EVERYONE on offense has to step up.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:07 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
Come on, man. It was a bad decision.

If we're going to win the Super Bowl, EVERYONE on offense has to step up.

I already said it was a bad decision-- I'm saying above that I understand why he was confident before the play that it would work... but when it's not there, he gets paid to make a better choice.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:10 pm 
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Ben was not throwing 'dimes' on every pass. More than a handful of his passes were more like scattered pennies than dimes. I've said it numerous times, if you go back and watch, take out other variables (excuses - warranted or not), you'll see that Ben is not "that" accurate on some of those simple passes. This first week of FB I've watched many average QBs hit receivers running simple short crossers or dump offs to RB as a screen or flat pass dead in stride. I mean dead in stride, where they can catch the ball without any extra loss in motion, zero. Ben simply doesn't do that much of the time (and, yes, I've watch the play enough times to see no other variables are interfering with Ben/receiver to accomplish this). A game played at this speed relies on those "dimes" being thrown for the play to be most successful. Does Ben throw the best downfield ropes in the NFL? Most likely, he's easily a top 5 QB at if, for sure. Those passes are much harder to throw, that's why so many QBs aren't very good at it. If Ben can be that accurate, at that distance, he certainly has the ability to throw 'dimes' on the short passes I'm talking about, but somehow he doesn't, at least not as well as the average QBs I've watch.

Simple example: MB ran a short crosser from left to right about 5-10 past the LOS and Ben had a perfect window (Ben sees him all the way across) to hit a wide open MB in stride for a very simple completion (again, something I saw a dozen average QBs do this weekend) and instead Ben threw it high and away from him. The 6"4' MB had to jump as high and far as he could just to get a finger on the ball, redirecting it a little, almost ending in an interception. Ben's inaccuracy was the only negative variable with that play, nothing else.


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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:49 pm 
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DP39 wrote:
Ben was not throwing 'dimes' on every pass. More than a handful of his passes were more like scattered pennies than dimes. I've said it numerous times, if you go back and watch, take out other variables (excuses - warranted or not), you'll see that Ben is not "that" accurate on some of those simple passes. This first week of FB I've watched many average QBs hit receivers running simple short crossers or dump offs to RB as a screen or flat pass dead in stride. I mean dead in stride, where they can catch the ball without any extra loss in motion, zero. Ben simply doesn't do that much of the time (and, yes, I've watch the play enough times to see no other variables are interfering with Ben/receiver to accomplish this). A game played at this speed relies on those "dimes" being thrown for the play to be most successful. Does Ben throw the best downfield ropes in the NFL? Most likely, he's easily a top 5 QB at if, for sure. Those passes are much harder to throw, that's why so many QBs aren't very good at it. If Ben can be that accurate, at that distance, he certainly has the ability to throw 'dimes' on the short passes I'm talking about, but somehow he doesn't, at least not as well as the average QBs I've watch.

Simple example: MB ran a short crosser from left to right about 5-10 past the LOS and Ben had a perfect window (Ben sees him all the way across) to hit a wide open MB in stride for a very simple completion (again, something I saw a dozen average QBs do this weekend) and instead Ben threw it high and away from him. The 6"4' MB had to jump as high and far as he could just to get a finger on the ball, redirecting it a little, almost ending in an interception. Ben's inaccuracy was the only negative variable with that play, nothing else.

I did go back, as you suggested. I pointed out the very small number of missed throws, including the one you mentioned, which was probably the least accurate of the whole day. Aside from another short dump off to Bell (Ben made that choice too late and rushed the throw because the throwing lane was closing and a pass rusher was reaching for the football), and a flat pass to Bell on a circle route that was debatable as to whether Bell drifted upfield too early or Ben put it behind him, he was remarkably accurate on virtually every other throw. The throws to AB and the sidelines, in particular were tremendous. Rather than leading them to the sidelines for short gains and no YAC, they were lead away from defenders and into open space. The comeback to Bryant was money into a tight window, and the first TD to James was throwing a bb into the glove box of a car traveling at 20 mph from 20 yards away.

Your narrative doesn't hold water in this game.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:50 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
Come on, man. It was a bad decision.

If we're going to win the Super Bowl, EVERYONE on offense has to step up.

I already said it was a bad decision-- I'm saying above that I understand why he was confident before the play that it would work... but when it's not there, he gets paid to make a better choice.


Right.

You know what that tendency allows to happen?

It allows you as a QB to get baited.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:55 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
Come on, man. It was a bad decision.

If we're going to win the Super Bowl, EVERYONE on offense has to step up.

I already said it was a bad decision-- I'm saying above that I understand why he was confident before the play that it would work... but when it's not there, he gets paid to make a better choice.


Right.

You know what that tendency allows to happen?

It allows you as a QB to get baited.

Sure. I'm assuming the book on Ben is to take away all the deep balls and force the ball to be dumped off, knowing that he'll get frustrated and force the ball eventually if the offense is stymied. And, I also assume that the OC book on working with Ben is get him in the groove early and find some stuff that works, so that the offense isn't stymied and he isn't pushed into forcing the issue.

Again, he's been doing this for more than 13 years.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:55 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
DP39 wrote:
Ben was not throwing 'dimes' on every pass. More than a handful of his passes were more like scattered pennies than dimes. I've said it numerous times, if you go back and watch, take out other variables (excuses - warranted or not), you'll see that Ben is not "that" accurate on some of those simple passes. This first week of FB I've watched many average QBs hit receivers running simple short crossers or dump offs to RB as a screen or flat pass dead in stride. I mean dead in stride, where they can catch the ball without any extra loss in motion, zero. Ben simply doesn't do that much of the time (and, yes, I've watch the play enough times to see no other variables are interfering with Ben/receiver to accomplish this). A game played at this speed relies on those "dimes" being thrown for the play to be most successful. Does Ben throw the best downfield ropes in the NFL? Most likely, he's easily a top 5 QB at if, for sure. Those passes are much harder to throw, that's why so many QBs aren't very good at it. If Ben can be that accurate, at that distance, he certainly has the ability to throw 'dimes' on the short passes I'm talking about, but somehow he doesn't, at least not as well as the average QBs I've watch.

Simple example: MB ran a short crosser from left to right about 5-10 past the LOS and Ben had a perfect window (Ben sees him all the way across) to hit a wide open MB in stride for a very simple completion (again, something I saw a dozen average QBs do this weekend) and instead Ben threw it high and away from him. The 6"4' MB had to jump as high and far as he could just to get a finger on the ball, redirecting it a little, almost ending in an interception. Ben's inaccuracy was the only negative variable with that play, nothing else.

I did go back, as you suggested. I pointed out the very small number of missed throws, including the one you mentioned, which was probably the least accurate of the whole day. Aside from another short dump off to Bell (Ben made that choice too late and rushed the throw because the throwing lane was closing and a pass rusher was reaching for the football), and a flat pass to Bell on a circle route that was debatable as to whether Bell drifted upfield too early or Ben put it behind him, he was remarkably accurate on virtually every other throw. The throws to AB and the sidelines, in particular were tremendous. Rather than leading them to the sidelines for short gains and no YAC, they were lead away from defenders and into open space. The comeback to Bryant was money into a tight window, and the first TD to James was throwing a bb into the glove box of a car traveling at 20 mph from 20 yards away.

Your narrative doesn't hold water in this game.


He was talking about the shorter throws, mostly.

I haven't watched the game film so I don't know who's telling the truth. The short throws I remember that missed were Ben being off.

I'm about holding everyone accountable who should be held accountable.

Mike Tomlin- for treating the first couple of games as preseason instead of treating PRESEASON as preseason.

Todd Haley- for calling games like an unimaginative scared pussy and not maximizing his personnel's talents.

Ben- for taking preseason off and for missing on some key throws, and making a braindead decision when we could have sealed the game.

Bell- for holding out of training camp

Martavis- for not staying off the dope

I'm sure there can be some for JuJu, Eli, Vance, and Jesse as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:03 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
DP39 wrote:
Ben was not throwing 'dimes' on every pass. More than a handful of his passes were more like scattered pennies than dimes. I've said it numerous times, if you go back and watch, take out other variables (excuses - warranted or not), you'll see that Ben is not "that" accurate on some of those simple passes. This first week of FB I've watched many average QBs hit receivers running simple short crossers or dump offs to RB as a screen or flat pass dead in stride. I mean dead in stride, where they can catch the ball without any extra loss in motion, zero. Ben simply doesn't do that much of the time (and, yes, I've watch the play enough times to see no other variables are interfering with Ben/receiver to accomplish this). A game played at this speed relies on those "dimes" being thrown for the play to be most successful. Does Ben throw the best downfield ropes in the NFL? Most likely, he's easily a top 5 QB at if, for sure. Those passes are much harder to throw, that's why so many QBs aren't very good at it. If Ben can be that accurate, at that distance, he certainly has the ability to throw 'dimes' on the short passes I'm talking about, but somehow he doesn't, at least not as well as the average QBs I've watch.

Simple example: MB ran a short crosser from left to right about 5-10 past the LOS and Ben had a perfect window (Ben sees him all the way across) to hit a wide open MB in stride for a very simple completion (again, something I saw a dozen average QBs do this weekend) and instead Ben threw it high and away from him. The 6"4' MB had to jump as high and far as he could just to get a finger on the ball, redirecting it a little, almost ending in an interception. Ben's inaccuracy was the only negative variable with that play, nothing else.

I did go back, as you suggested. I pointed out the very small number of missed throws, including the one you mentioned, which was probably the least accurate of the whole day. Aside from another short dump off to Bell (Ben made that choice too late and rushed the throw because the throwing lane was closing and a pass rusher was reaching for the football), and a flat pass to Bell on a circle route that was debatable as to whether Bell drifted upfield too early or Ben put it behind him, he was remarkably accurate on virtually every other throw. The throws to AB and the sidelines, in particular were tremendous. Rather than leading them to the sidelines for short gains and no YAC, they were lead away from defenders and into open space. The comeback to Bryant was money into a tight window, and the first TD to James was throwing a bb into the glove box of a car traveling at 20 mph from 20 yards away.

Your narrative doesn't hold water in this game.


He was talking about the shorter throws, mostly.

I haven't watched the game film so I don't know who's telling the truth. The short throws I remember that missed were Ben being off.

I'm about holding everyone accountable who should be held accountable.

Mike Tomlin- for treating the first couple of games as preseason instead of treating PRESEASON as preseason.

Todd Haley- for calling games like an unimaginative scared pussy and not maximizing his personnel's talents.

Ben- for taking preseason off and for missing on some key throws, and making a braindead decision when we could have sealed the game.

Bell- for holding out of training camp

Martavis- for not staying off the dope

I'm sure there can be some for JuJu, Eli, Vance, and Jesse as well.


You're on fire today, Jeemie, and you're 100% correct.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:08 pm 
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Ben had about 28 throws less than 10 yards downfield on Sunday. He had 7 incompletions, of which at least 3 were drops (Bryant, Eli, McDonald) and one was a horrible route by Bell where Ben's throw was good.

That leaves 3/28 throws that were not accurate short throws. Here's the chart (doesn't count at least three throws negated by penalties- two screens and the throw to AB negated by Bell chop block):
https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/list/all/pittsburgh-steelers/season/week/ben-roethlisberger/ROE750381/2017/1/pass

Again, how many inaccurate throws do you think Tom Brady had on Thursday night? 3/28 doesn't seem all that unreasonable to me. Maybe I'm wrong about this.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:10 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Ben had about 28 throws less than 10 yards downfield on Sunday. He had 7 incompletions, of which at least 3 were drops (Bryant, Eli, McDonald) and one was a horrible route by Bell where Ben's throw was good.

That leaves 3/28 throws that were not accurate short throws. Here's the chart (doesn't count at least three throws negated by penalties- two screens and the throw to AB negated by Bell chop block):
https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/list/all/pittsburgh-steelers/season/week/ben-roethlisberger/ROE750381/2017/1/pass

Again, how many inaccurate throws do you think Tom Brady had on Thursday night? 3/28 doesn't seem all that unreasonable to me. Maybe I'm wrong about this.


On what play did Rogers drop a ball don't remember that at all? Oh never mind got it.


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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:35 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Ben had about 28 throws less than 10 yards downfield on Sunday. He had 7 incompletions, of which at least 3 were drops (Bryant, Eli, McDonald) and one was a horrible route by Bell where Ben's throw was good.

That leaves 3/28 throws that were not accurate short throws. Here's the chart (doesn't count at least three throws negated by penalties- two screens and the throw to AB negated by Bell chop block):
https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/list/all/pittsburgh-steelers/season/week/ben-roethlisberger/ROE750381/2017/1/pass

Again, how many inaccurate throws do you think Tom Brady had on Thursday night? 3/28 doesn't seem all that unreasonable to me. Maybe I'm wrong about this.


KC's defense vs. Cleveland's defense. C'mon, man!

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:40 pm 
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Obviously wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Ben had about 28 throws less than 10 yards downfield on Sunday. He had 7 incompletions, of which at least 3 were drops (Bryant, Eli, McDonald) and one was a horrible route by Bell where Ben's throw was good.

That leaves 3/28 throws that were not accurate short throws. Here's the chart (doesn't count at least three throws negated by penalties- two screens and the throw to AB negated by Bell chop block):
https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/list/all/pittsburgh-steelers/season/week/ben-roethlisberger/ROE750381/2017/1/pass

Again, how many inaccurate throws do you think Tom Brady had on Thursday night? 3/28 doesn't seem all that unreasonable to me. Maybe I'm wrong about this.


KC's defense vs. Cleveland's defense. C'mon, man!

open short throws are open short throws, man

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:42 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Obviously wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Ben had about 28 throws less than 10 yards downfield on Sunday. He had 7 incompletions, of which at least 3 were drops (Bryant, Eli, McDonald) and one was a horrible route by Bell where Ben's throw was good.

That leaves 3/28 throws that were not accurate short throws. Here's the chart (doesn't count at least three throws negated by penalties- two screens and the throw to AB negated by Bell chop block):
https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/list/all/pittsburgh-steelers/season/week/ben-roethlisberger/ROE750381/2017/1/pass

Again, how many inaccurate throws do you think Tom Brady had on Thursday night? 3/28 doesn't seem all that unreasonable to me. Maybe I'm wrong about this.


KC's defense vs. Cleveland's defense. C'mon, man!

open short throws are open short throws, man


KC will be missing arguably their best defensive player. Toss up between Berry and Houston.


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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:44 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Ben had about 28 throws less than 10 yards downfield on Sunday. He had 7 incompletions, of which at least 3 were drops (Bryant, Eli, McDonald) and one was a horrible route by Bell where Ben's throw was good.

That leaves 3/28 throws that were not accurate short throws. Here's the chart (doesn't count at least three throws negated by penalties- two screens and the throw to AB negated by Bell chop block):
https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/list/all/pittsburgh-steelers/season/week/ben-roethlisberger/ROE750381/2017/1/pass

Again, how many inaccurate throws do you think Tom Brady had on Thursday night? 3/28 doesn't seem all that unreasonable to me. Maybe I'm wrong about this.


Cool graphic. Even more damning is the one of bells runs. Now that's some boring play calling.

Any rate I'm over it and ready to take on Sam fucking Bradford!


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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:44 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Ben had about 28 throws less than 10 yards downfield on Sunday. He had 7 incompletions, of which at least 3 were drops (Bryant, Eli, McDonald) and one was a horrible route by Bell where Ben's throw was good.

That leaves 3/28 throws that were not accurate short throws. Here's the chart (doesn't count at least three throws negated by penalties- two screens and the throw to AB negated by Bell chop block):
https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/list/all/pittsburgh-steelers/season/week/ben-roethlisberger/ROE750381/2017/1/pass

Again, how many inaccurate throws do you think Tom Brady had on Thursday night? 3/28 doesn't seem all that unreasonable to me. Maybe I'm wrong about this.

I don't how I can explain it in any more detail. The pass you mention to Fleener is another example of what I'm talking about. You keep going to drops and incompletions, but I'm not only talking about those. Did Fleener not make the catch he "dropped"? Yes, but was the pass towards his back shoulder instead of "in-stride"? Yes, it sure was. The best placement of that pass would have been at his front shoulder where he could grab it with his hands and continue his path without losing any momentum. Ben does this a lot, you either don't want to see it or you want to make excuses for why it happens and they are almost always not his fault, in your mind.

Trust me, I wish I didn't have to mention his below the line play in this area, but I want near perfection from my elite, $100M, HOF QB on the simpler duties of being just that.

We obviously see this area of Ben's game completely different. I totally agree with you on Ben's over 20 yd long passing ability....he pretty damn good/great.


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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:46 pm 
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I just want to reiterate something from earlier on Alien. Yes he didn't have game we all wanted him to have, however, go back and look play AB drew DPI to put Steelers in position for eventual TD. Focus on Bryant on other side of the field and attention he draws. It highlights that even when he isn't lighting up the stat sheet his presence alone results in favorable match ups elsewhere. Steelers did not have that last season at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:59 pm 
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DP39-- it's arguable, I guess, but I'm not sure the right play on that throw to McDonald is to put the ball out in front of him, towards the defender. It seems a little risky for the situation. Regardless, in slow motion view, the throw missed hitting him between the 8 and the 9 by about three inches.

I fully understand the point you are making, but I think you are seeing the outliers and using it (unintentionally) to manufacture a position that ignores the vast majority of the throws and the context of them.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:27 pm 
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There has been a couple articles today discussing the intention to run more 4 wife sets moving forward. Thing is, it was also suggested those formations would be coupled with an empty backfield.

My initial response is I like the idea of running some more 4 wide but why take away the threat of run by using a TE?

Seems you have infinitely more option out of 4 wide with a running back than you do 4 wife and a TE.

Hopefully they aren't rigid in this approach and realize the huge benefit of running out of spread sets as well as using play action.

Thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:36 pm 
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955876 wrote:
There has been a couple articles today discussing the intention to run more 4 wife sets moving forward.


The polygamist steeler fans approve, but caution that wife 1 is most likely the size of a lineman at this point in time,


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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:38 pm 
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955876 wrote:
There has been a couple articles today discussing the intention to run more 4 wife sets moving forward. Thing is, it was also suggested those formations would be coupled with an empty backfield.

My initial response is I like the idea of running some more 4 wide but why take away the threat of run by using a TE?

Seems you have infinitely more option out of 4 wide with a running back than you do 4 wife and a TE.

Hopefully they aren't rigid in this approach and realize the huge benefit of running out of spread sets as well as using play action.

Thoughts?

Because the short passes to WRs and TE ARE run plays disguised as passes. They are just run plays not run into a box of large people.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:51 pm 
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A lil dump-off to a TE orbWR in the flat may serve as a "run" play but isn't quite the same as spreading a D and then hitting them with a RB between the tackles.

It also forces the D to account for both vs just playing pass and worrying about he flats.

Gimme one of our RBs between the tackles vs a spread out D over a pass to Jesse James in there flat.

This is where I think the coaches sabotage themselves at times.

Will see how this plays out.


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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:53 pm 
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dropemjaybird wrote:
955876 wrote:
There has been a couple articles today discussing the intention to run more 4 wife sets moving forward.


The polygamist steeler fans approve, but caution that wife 1 is most likely the size of a lineman at this point in time,


Ha. I didn't catch that.


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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:21 pm 
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955876 wrote:
dropemjaybird wrote:
955876 wrote:
There has been a couple articles today discussing the intention to run more 4 wife sets moving forward.


The polygamist steeler fans approve, but caution that wife 1 is most likely the size of a lineman at this point in time,


Ha. I didn't catch that.


The dreaded Mormon Coast offense?


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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:04 pm 
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No, I didn't catch my typo.

Not sure what the Mormon Coast Offense is...


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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:34 pm 
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Nevermind. That went right over my head.

West Coast Offense.

Mormon Coast Offense.

:D


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