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Re-watch Offense
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Author:  955876 [ Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re-watch Offense

steelclan wrote:
I have all 22 as well and Ben made an awful play on that 3rd and 9. If Ben takes a split second to look to his right he would see Ju Ju streaking by his man with safety leaning towards Bryant. All he had to do is throw ball towards sideline into acres of space in end zone for Ju Ju to run under. If not that then Bell wide open underneath running away from Lber with 20 plus yards of green grass in front of him. Instead he threw into teeth of coverage where both Bryant and AB attracted double & in Bryant's case triple team. I get frustration over screens etc but it is plays like this that put bad teams away and have to be made. AB & Bryant did their jobs by opening up the entire right side of the field Ben has to know this and take advantage of it. Instead Steelers let Browns back in the game.

As to the universal criticism of Haley. Yes he deserves a huge chunk, however, we have a veteran play caller who can change plays. He has that option and we cannot run around screaming at the coaches all day when it is obvious to all of us a simple change in play call is needed. That 2nd 1 situation with crap pass to Bell and piss poor 3rd n 1 conversion was right out of the Bruce Arians play book who btw threw a ton of WR screens and hot routes that used to get people so steamed it was comical. Yet now some of the very same posters think Arians walks on water. Funny how that works.


Good post & points. I don't take the time to scrub film but did notice in a few occasions Sunday where we had a wide open option yet Ben was locked-in looking only where he wanted to look.

Seems when the offense is struggling is when his tunnel vision rears its ugly head. Would the offense struggle so as much if he would find these wide open receivers? Likely not.

Seems to that he will ignore players he doesn't trust at these times as well. Maybe the vet Hunter should have gotten the nod over JuJu. Maybe that would not have mattered either.

And while I don't place the MOST blame at Ben's feet, I have felt he has had his hand in the mix with some real stinker games & decisions.

Author:  steelclan [ Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re-watch Offense

955876 wrote:
steelclan wrote:
I have all 22 as well and Ben made an awful play on that 3rd and 9. If Ben takes a split second to look to his right he would see Ju Ju streaking by his man with safety leaning towards Bryant. All he had to do is throw ball towards sideline into acres of space in end zone for Ju Ju to run under. If not that then Bell wide open underneath running away from Lber with 20 plus yards of green grass in front of him. Instead he threw into teeth of coverage where both Bryant and AB attracted double & in Bryant's case triple team. I get frustration over screens etc but it is plays like this that put bad teams away and have to be made. AB & Bryant did their jobs by opening up the entire right side of the field Ben has to know this and take advantage of it. Instead Steelers let Browns back in the game.

As to the universal criticism of Haley. Yes he deserves a huge chunk, however, we have a veteran play caller who can change plays. He has that option and we cannot run around screaming at the coaches all day when it is obvious to all of us a simple change in play call is needed. That 2nd 1 situation with crap pass to Bell and piss poor 3rd n 1 conversion was right out of the Bruce Arians play book who btw threw a ton of WR screens and hot routes that used to get people so steamed it was comical. Yet now some of the very same posters think Arians walks on water. Funny how that works.


Good post & points. I don't take the time to scrub film but did notice in a few occasions Sunday where we had a wide open option yet Ben was locked-in looking only where he wanted to look.

Seems when the offense is struggling is when his tunnel vision rears its ugly head. Would the offense struggle so as much if he would find these wide open receivers? Likely not.

Seems to that he will ignore players he doesn't trust at these times as well. Maybe the vet Hunter should have gotten the nod over JuJu. Maybe that would not have mattered either.

And while I don't place the MOST blame at Ben's feet, I have felt he has had his hand in the mix with some real stinker games & decisions.


Fair cop and given success of that play scheme rather than execution wise it is a shame Steelers didn't run that more. AB & Bryant had entire Browns D following them like a creepy stalker on speed. If this offense wants to be what it can be Steelers have to take advantage of teams willing to put just about half their defense into stopping Bryant/AB. I like DHB as a teamer but not as WR rather add in Hunter's ability to run 9s/posts and it create even more space. Steelers had a rookie safety ready to bite on just about anything and did very little to test him.

Author:  bradshaw2ben [ Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re-watch Offense

steelclan wrote:
I have all 22 as well and Ben made an awful play on that 3rd and 9. If Ben takes a split second to look to his right he would see Ju Ju streaking by his man with safety leaning towards Bryant. All he had to do is throw ball towards sideline into acres of space in end zone for Ju Ju to run under. If not that then Bell wide open underneath running away from Lber with 20 plus yards of green grass in front of him. Instead he threw into teeth of coverage where both Bryant and AB attracted double & in Bryant's case triple team. I get frustration over screens etc but it is plays like this that put bad teams away and have to be made. AB & Bryant did their jobs by opening up the entire right side of the field Ben has to know this and take advantage of it. Instead Steelers let Browns back in the game.

As to the universal criticism of Haley. Yes he deserves a huge chunk, however, we have a veteran play caller who can change plays. He has that option and we cannot run around screaming at the coaches all day when it is obvious to all of us a simple change in play call is needed. That 2nd 1 situation with crap pass to Bell and piss poor 3rd n 1 conversion was right out of the Bruce Arians play book who btw threw a ton of WR screens and hot routes that used to get people so steamed it was comical. Yet now some of the very same posters think Arians walks on water. Funny how that works.

Ben can only change from certain called plays to certain audibles, especially when the play comes in late. The most likely is a change between an interior run play and a different run play or interior run play and outside screen. There is an occasional opportunity for a WR running a check with me route on a run play. Very difficult with 10-12 seconds on play clock to change formation and give routes to all the receivers, which is what it would be to switch from, say a WR screen to smash combo on one side and double post on the other. I think the adjustments at the line are generally small ones in this offense. They probably have a handful of go-to audible options for Ben.

Author:  LakecrestSteeler [ Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re-watch Offense

bradshaw2ben wrote:
955876 wrote:
So 3TD catches a game instead of just two?

I hear what you are saying but geeesh, James hauled in two TDs Sunday.

With his size, he's a decent RZ target and hasn't shown to have poor hands.

What we need is better and more consistent playcalling.

He's just very limited in what he can do to get open and doesn't attract attention or concern from the D.

+100....Just in terms of passing. I have not watched him enough in blocking situations, but suspect his build can’t make him that dominant.

Author:  steelclan [ Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re-watch Offense

James blocked ok he struggles whenever he has to block someone in space. It is one many reasons the screen love affair is so puzzling.

Author:  Y-Town Steel [ Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re-watch Offense

steelclan wrote:
I have all 22 as well and Ben made an awful play on that 3rd and 9. If Ben takes a split second to look to his right he would see Ju Ju streaking by his man with safety leaning towards Bryant. All he had to do is throw ball towards sideline into acres of space in end zone for Ju Ju to run under. If not that then Bell wide open underneath running away from Lber with 20 plus yards of green grass in front of him. Instead he threw into teeth of coverage where both Bryant and AB attracted double & in Bryant's case triple team. I get frustration over screens etc but it is plays like this that put bad teams away and have to be made. AB & Bryant did their jobs by opening up the entire right side of the field Ben has to know this and take advantage of it. Instead Steelers let Browns back in the game.

Troof bomb

Author:  Jeemie [ Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re-watch Offense

Y-Town Steel wrote:
steelclan wrote:
I have all 22 as well and Ben made an awful play on that 3rd and 9. If Ben takes a split second to look to his right he would see Ju Ju streaking by his man with safety leaning towards Bryant. All he had to do is throw ball towards sideline into acres of space in end zone for Ju Ju to run under. If not that then Bell wide open underneath running away from Lber with 20 plus yards of green grass in front of him. Instead he threw into teeth of coverage where both Bryant and AB attracted double & in Bryant's case triple team. I get frustration over screens etc but it is plays like this that put bad teams away and have to be made. AB & Bryant did their jobs by opening up the entire right side of the field Ben has to know this and take advantage of it. Instead Steelers let Browns back in the game.

Troof bomb


Ben's best games are when he uses everybody...when eight different guys catch passes.

I'm going to harp on this until I'm blue in the face. Maybe he oughtn't have had only two series of work and every third day off in preseason.

We can't wait four weeks for him to build trust in JuJu and Eli while he forces every other pass to Antonio and Martavis.

Author:  it's still yggy [ Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re-watch Offense

I for one am ready to stop fretting over the browns win and take on the Vikings

Author:  Jobus Rum [ Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re-watch Offense

it's still yggy wrote:
I for one am ready to stop fretting over the browns win and take on the Vikings

What?!?!? :shock:

Author:  dropemjaybird [ Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re-watch Offense

it's still yggy wrote:
I for one am ready to stop fretting over the browns win and take on the Vikings


Nope, the steelerfury.com board is still working on the book titled "What Happened" in reference to why the win over Cleveland was not as certain as expected.

Author:  Havoc [ Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re-watch Offense

dropemjaybird wrote:
it's still yggy wrote:
I for one am ready to stop fretting over the browns win and take on the Vikings


Nope, the steelerfury.com board is still working on the book titled "What Happened" in reference to why the win over Cleveland was not as certain as expected.


Dumb post jaybird. You are better than that.

That's not what the discussion has been about.

Author:  Luca Brasi [ Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re-watch Offense

Havoc wrote:
dropemjaybird wrote:
it's still yggy wrote:
I for one am ready to stop fretting over the browns win and take on the Vikings


Nope, the steelerfury.com board is still working on the book titled "What Happened" in reference to why the win over Cleveland was not as certain as expected.


Dumb post jaybird. You are better than that.

That's not what the discussion has been about.



Yes it is.

Author:  Havoc [ Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re-watch Offense

Luca Brasi wrote:
Yes it is.


Do you understand anything meaningful about sports?

Author:  Steeledge [ Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re-watch Offense

dropemjaybird wrote:
it's still yggy wrote:
I for one am ready to stop fretting over the browns win and take on the Vikings


Nope, the steelerfury.com board is still working on the book titled "What Happened" in reference to why the win over Cleveland was not as certain as expected.

yeah, let's wait until we lose to inferior teams instead of eeking by them to say "What Happened?!"

:roll:

Author:  Havoc [ Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re-watch Offense

Many on this board watch their favorite teams whether football or other sports with deeper and bigger things in mind than the final score.

It's not about the browns game, it's much bigger than that.

Author:  Jeemie [ Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re-watch Offense

Luca Brasi wrote:
Yes it is.


Actually it's about highlighting yet again that although the Steelers talk big, one game's worth of evidence shows nothing has changed. They still do the stupid things that let inferior teams hang with them with a chance to actually upset them.

Think on the ramifications that the Browns, with a ROOKIE QUARTERBACK, ran a more wide-open, modern offense than the Steelers, with a 14-year veteran future Hall-of-Famer at the helm. We cannot...CANNOT...win a Super Bowl that way.

The ONLY wild card is Ben's attitude. Looks like he's going to put up with much less shit this season, and WILL retire if things don't change.

Of course, here's hoping his attitude leads to better performances from HIM as well.

Author:  bradshaw2ben [ Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re-watch Offense

It's true that spreading the ball around-- Ben is a point guard, after all-- is a sign that things are clicking. On the other hand, those other guys rarely got separation early in routes and dropped dimes laid out to them when they did. It's why a good offensive plan and play design is essential, even with loads of talent.

Author:  Jeemie [ Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re-watch Offense

bradshaw2ben wrote:
It's true that spreading the ball around-- Ben is a point guard, after all-- is a sign that things are clicking. On the other hand, those other guys rarely got separation early in routes and dropped dimes laid out to them when they did. It's why a good offensive plan and play design is essential, even with loads of talent.


As Clan pointed out, there were times the other guys were open and Ben didn't go to them.

So it's a mixture of both.

Author:  bradshaw2ben [ Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re-watch Offense

Jeemie wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
It's true that spreading the ball around-- Ben is a point guard, after all-- is a sign that things are clicking. On the other hand, those other guys rarely got separation early in routes and dropped dimes laid out to them when they did. It's why a good offensive plan and play design is essential, even with loads of talent.


As Clan pointed out, there were times the other guys were open and Ben didn't go to them.

So it's a mixture of both.

I understand they sometimes got open but you have to deliver when called upon or you're not always going to get the ball just because you're open.

The INT play was an extreme example, but understand that Ben had a wide open TD on the play before, facing the same defense, and called the same play with a better WR-- logical that he thought he'd have a good shot at that post.

Author:  Obviously [ Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re-watch Offense

Havoc wrote:
Luca Brasi wrote:
Yes it is.


Do you understand anything meaningful about sports?


Luca's a "Unicorns and Rainbows" guy. The Steelers can do no wrong and shouldn't be criticized at all.

Author:  Jeemie [ Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re-watch Offense

bradshaw2ben wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
It's true that spreading the ball around-- Ben is a point guard, after all-- is a sign that things are clicking. On the other hand, those other guys rarely got separation early in routes and dropped dimes laid out to them when they did. It's why a good offensive plan and play design is essential, even with loads of talent.


As Clan pointed out, there were times the other guys were open and Ben didn't go to them.

So it's a mixture of both.

I understand they sometimes got open but you have to deliver when called upon or you're not always going to get the ball just because you're open.

The INT play was an extreme example, but understand that Ben had a wide open TD on the play before, facing the same defense, and called the same play with a better WR-- logical that he thought he'd have a good shot at that post.


That's making an excuse for Ben...one you would NEVER make for Todd haley.

Come on, man. It was a bad decision.

If we're going to win the Super Bowl, EVERYONE on offense has to step up.

Author:  bradshaw2ben [ Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re-watch Offense

Jeemie wrote:
Come on, man. It was a bad decision.

If we're going to win the Super Bowl, EVERYONE on offense has to step up.

I already said it was a bad decision-- I'm saying above that I understand why he was confident before the play that it would work... but when it's not there, he gets paid to make a better choice.

Author:  DP39 [ Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re-watch Offense

Ben was not throwing 'dimes' on every pass. More than a handful of his passes were more like scattered pennies than dimes. I've said it numerous times, if you go back and watch, take out other variables (excuses - warranted or not), you'll see that Ben is not "that" accurate on some of those simple passes. This first week of FB I've watched many average QBs hit receivers running simple short crossers or dump offs to RB as a screen or flat pass dead in stride. I mean dead in stride, where they can catch the ball without any extra loss in motion, zero. Ben simply doesn't do that much of the time (and, yes, I've watch the play enough times to see no other variables are interfering with Ben/receiver to accomplish this). A game played at this speed relies on those "dimes" being thrown for the play to be most successful. Does Ben throw the best downfield ropes in the NFL? Most likely, he's easily a top 5 QB at if, for sure. Those passes are much harder to throw, that's why so many QBs aren't very good at it. If Ben can be that accurate, at that distance, he certainly has the ability to throw 'dimes' on the short passes I'm talking about, but somehow he doesn't, at least not as well as the average QBs I've watch.

Simple example: MB ran a short crosser from left to right about 5-10 past the LOS and Ben had a perfect window (Ben sees him all the way across) to hit a wide open MB in stride for a very simple completion (again, something I saw a dozen average QBs do this weekend) and instead Ben threw it high and away from him. The 6"4' MB had to jump as high and far as he could just to get a finger on the ball, redirecting it a little, almost ending in an interception. Ben's inaccuracy was the only negative variable with that play, nothing else.

Author:  bradshaw2ben [ Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re-watch Offense

DP39 wrote:
Ben was not throwing 'dimes' on every pass. More than a handful of his passes were more like scattered pennies than dimes. I've said it numerous times, if you go back and watch, take out other variables (excuses - warranted or not), you'll see that Ben is not "that" accurate on some of those simple passes. This first week of FB I've watched many average QBs hit receivers running simple short crossers or dump offs to RB as a screen or flat pass dead in stride. I mean dead in stride, where they can catch the ball without any extra loss in motion, zero. Ben simply doesn't do that much of the time (and, yes, I've watch the play enough times to see no other variables are interfering with Ben/receiver to accomplish this). A game played at this speed relies on those "dimes" being thrown for the play to be most successful. Does Ben throw the best downfield ropes in the NFL? Most likely, he's easily a top 5 QB at if, for sure. Those passes are much harder to throw, that's why so many QBs aren't very good at it. If Ben can be that accurate, at that distance, he certainly has the ability to throw 'dimes' on the short passes I'm talking about, but somehow he doesn't, at least not as well as the average QBs I've watch.

Simple example: MB ran a short crosser from left to right about 5-10 past the LOS and Ben had a perfect window (Ben sees him all the way across) to hit a wide open MB in stride for a very simple completion (again, something I saw a dozen average QBs do this weekend) and instead Ben threw it high and away from him. The 6"4' MB had to jump as high and far as he could just to get a finger on the ball, redirecting it a little, almost ending in an interception. Ben's inaccuracy was the only negative variable with that play, nothing else.

I did go back, as you suggested. I pointed out the very small number of missed throws, including the one you mentioned, which was probably the least accurate of the whole day. Aside from another short dump off to Bell (Ben made that choice too late and rushed the throw because the throwing lane was closing and a pass rusher was reaching for the football), and a flat pass to Bell on a circle route that was debatable as to whether Bell drifted upfield too early or Ben put it behind him, he was remarkably accurate on virtually every other throw. The throws to AB and the sidelines, in particular were tremendous. Rather than leading them to the sidelines for short gains and no YAC, they were lead away from defenders and into open space. The comeback to Bryant was money into a tight window, and the first TD to James was throwing a bb into the glove box of a car traveling at 20 mph from 20 yards away.

Your narrative doesn't hold water in this game.

Author:  Jeemie [ Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re-watch Offense

bradshaw2ben wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
Come on, man. It was a bad decision.

If we're going to win the Super Bowl, EVERYONE on offense has to step up.

I already said it was a bad decision-- I'm saying above that I understand why he was confident before the play that it would work... but when it's not there, he gets paid to make a better choice.


Right.

You know what that tendency allows to happen?

It allows you as a QB to get baited.

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