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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:26 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
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When Ben said it's gonna be a "wait and see offense".....that tells me they did not do enough in preseason to get ready for this season.

"Wait and see" is he kidding me.
Unacceptable comments and thought process for a team with a HOF qb. All pro RB. HOF wr. Top 5 OL.... and many other very good parts .

Wait and see how rusty my throws are?

I thought I read or heard Tomlin or Ben say.... that Ben had every third day off during the preseason.
That knowing he and Bryant needed to get extra work. New kid in JJSS. Working in new backs in
Connors and Watson.

That statement tells me Ben is also ok with using the the first quarter of the season to get the offense in Gear. I beleive this has been Tomlins thought process over the years as well.

I just watched every passing play on the All-22... there's nothing wrong with Ben or his accuracy.
1. LBell ran a horrid route on an out. Slow out of the break and rounded it. Timing pattern whose timing was fucked up
2. Jesse James rounded his deep out-- good way to get your QB pick 6ed. If he comes back to the ball at all on the route (he's supposed to), it's a completion.
3. Ben missed on a crosser to Bryant (came out hot)
4. Ben missed on a short dump to Bell... really the flaw here was Ben was late to decide to dump to Bell and the throwing window closed quickly. He had to rush the throw and put it a hair behind Bell
5. INT play was interesting-- Steelers on previous play had Eli open for a skinny post TD, pass knocked down at the line. Steelers called same play, but with Bryant in Eli's slot spot. Ben hesitated a hair on the throw then still tried to drop it in the bucket and missed short. More a poor decision/late decision than poor throw, though.

Actually, I was more impressed with Ben's ball placement overall than I was watching it live. Bell looks like a shell of himself. The TE play was not good, although JJ made a nice play on the first TD. Eli Rogers and Juju were non factors, which simply can't happen.


Not surprised Bell looks like a shell of himself in the passing game.

Down the stretch last year, when they overly-relied on his running, he was taken out of the passing game. So it's been almost a year since he's been intimately involved.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:28 pm 
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Good point, Jeemie

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:43 pm 
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Donnie Brasco wrote:
Steel Drummer wrote:
Could it be that Dejan is a sack of shit?


What exactly in that article did you disagree with?


Actually, not much. Just re-read it while sober.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:53 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Laying the Wood wrote:
If you think Art II didn't pass down an edict that:

1) The Steelers need to run the ball at all costs, and
2) Ben needs to get rid of the ball and stay upright

...then you're delusional. There is no other explanation.

Thank you, Wood-- I'm glad I'm not the only one.

These horizontal plays and the throws 1 yard downfield are running plays that protect Ben. They just use a cast of thousands to spread out the hits. If you take out the runs and the "extension of the run game" plays, what is left to this offense?

Sam Bradford and Trevor Siemian threw downfield more in the first half of the 1st quarter than we did for an entire game. Do we not see anything wrong with that?


Yep. If Duece would just get out of the way Tomlin's inner Bill Walsh could really shine.

I'm curious, what has Tomlin ever "put in tape" anywhere to show you he's some offensive genius that is simply being held back?

I get and agree ownership wanted to improve the running game. It had become an afterthought under Arians and stale. Kind of a "check the box" we ran it there mentality.

But what part of wanting to "run it better" somehow translated to "run at all cost" and even to the detriment of the offense?

Do you guys think that after we lay an egg offensively that Duece comes down and high fives his coaches for stubbornly running into a brick wall?

Art wanted to run it better. We needed to be better at that. But show me where the edict came down to "run at all cost" and neuter the entire offense.

As for protecting Ben, one thing I seem to recall Arians offense lacking were outlets. Further, Ben needed to be better at protecting himself. He was stubborn in combination with an offense and coaches that didn't incorporate outlets very well.

Now, we run an offense featuring stinking outlets.

If you are a Tomlin fan the answer is to point blame at someone else. Oh it must be the owners fault. He's the one installing the offensive game plan. That's it.

Do you guys really think Tomlin/Haley have some awesome plan drawn up but then go, oh wait, we better scrap that and replace it with bubble screens and runs into stacked boxes to keep dad happy? Without dad watching we would light it up?

I agree Duece has some blame. However, his blame is for allowing Tomlin and Haley to continue delivering underwhelming results given the resources he's provided.

I see QBs every single week throwing intermediate passes on three step drops where the ball is out when the back foot hits the ground. QB is not hit often on those type of plays. To do that though the offense needs timing and coordination. Something we lack. Instead, we rely on the perfect execution of an elementary playbook.

But again, all Deuces fault. He wants to pay big bucks for Ben & Co only to tell his HC to run an offense designed to protect a rookie QB back in 1982.

I don't believe the notion that interference from above is the "only" answer.

More likely is we have a weak OC combined with a coach that doesn't have he X's & O's chops to fix it. So they do what they do.

One of the biggest problems I see is their fixation that the pass must be set-up with the run. Tomlin loves attrition football and that is how we run our offense. He's said he loves attrition football before.

Lastly, how freaking weak is Tomlin as a coach if he truly disagrees with this yet simply goes along?

Ok dad, I'll do it.

I want to be a Tomlin fan. I was a Tomlin fan. Tomlin isn't who I thought he was...


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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:21 pm 
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LakecrestSteeler wrote:
Jesse James is serviceable and nothing more. He is vulture player that picks up scrap opportunities left in the wake of Ben, Brown, Bell and probably Bryant’s presence.


Well, yeah....can't have Pro Bowlers at every position.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:23 pm 
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I think they (all of them) convince themselves of their perceived successes. Outcome of the game is they won. Takeaway was that "we did what we do" faught hard tough league yada yada

Truth is big plays by Ben to AB, td catches by JJ and blocked punt are the real reasons.

But tomlin/art2/Haley insulate themselves in the belief they're doing the right things, and they don't change until they are genuinely challenge. In that usually happens after a multiple game losing stretch or being beat up on by a 1-5 opponent st home. Something unfortunately needs to shock them out of that shell.

That's the negative version. The positive version which I go back-and-forth believing is they do have a plan and it's a good plan but it will simply take some time to roll out and work well. Tomlin is a person who shows he can adjust on the fly and is willing to make changes and the team will learn and improve as the year goes on and be ready.

Truth is probably both of these at the same time


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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:29 pm 
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955876 wrote:
I want to be a Tomlin fan. I was a Tomlin fan. Tomlin isn't who I thought he was...


I was a Tomlin fan the first 4-5 years, then Cowher players started leaving and so did my confidence....easing into the SB being the proverbial straw.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:38 pm 
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Steel Drummer wrote:
Donnie Brasco wrote:
Steel Drummer wrote:
Could it be that Dejan is a sack of shit?


What exactly in that article did you disagree with?


Actually, not much. Just re-read it while sober.

:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:39 pm 
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it's still yggy wrote:
I think they (all of them) convince themselves of their perceived successes. Outcome of the game is they won. Takeaway was that "we did what we do" faught hard tough league yada yada

Truth is big plays by Ben to AB, td catches by JJ and blocked punt are the real reasons.

But tomlin/art2/Haley insulate themselves in the belief they're doing the right things, and they don't change until they are genuinely challenge. In that usually happens after a multiple game losing stretch or being beat up on by a 1-5 opponent st home. Something unfortunately needs to shock them out of that shell.

That's the negative version. The positive version which I go back-and-forth believing is they do have a plan and it's a good plan but it will simply take some time to roll out and work well. Tomlin is a person who shows he can adjust on the fly and is willing to make changes and the team will learn and improve as the year goes on and be ready.

Truth is probably both of these at the same time


Unfortunately, I think you nailed it with the "negative version".

Tomlin has shown to be flexible. Problem is, he always ends up circling right back to what forces him to be flexible in the first place. He's 10 years in and is who he is.


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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:41 pm 
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Quote:
easing into the SB being the proverbial straw.


And did so even though his team had far more players with SB experience than his opponent.


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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:45 pm 
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it's still yggy wrote:
I think they (all of them) convince themselves of their perceived successes. Outcome of the game is they won. Takeaway was that "we did what we do" faught hard tough league yada yada

Truth is big plays by Ben to AB, td catches by JJ and blocked punt are the real reasons.

But tomlin/art2/Haley insulate themselves in the belief they're doing the right things, and they don't change until they are genuinely challenge. In that usually happens after a multiple game losing stretch or being beat up on by a 1-5 opponent st home. Something unfortunately needs to shock them out of that shell.

That's the negative version. The positive version which I go back-and-forth believing is they do have a plan and it's a good plan but it will simply take some time to roll out and work well. Tomlin is a person who shows he can adjust on the fly and is willing to make changes and the team will learn and improve as the year goes on and be ready.

Truth is probably both of these at the same time


I can practically guarantee that some small part of Tomlin's brain thinks the Steelers lost the AFCCG last year because Le'veon Bell got injured.

Just like he probably thinks he lost to Denver the year before because he didn't have Bell or Brown, and the year before that to Baltimore because no Bell.

Something always seems to come up that provides a convenient excuse...

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:49 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
LakecrestSteeler wrote:
Jesse James is serviceable and nothing more. He is vulture player that picks up scrap opportunities left in the wake of Ben, Brown, Bell and probably Bryant’s presence.


Well, yeah....can't have Pro Bowlers at every position.

But actually, TE is vital for scoring in the red zone. WRs get the flash between the 20s, RBs grind out tough yards... TEs make the dough in the RZ. If we want to be an elite scoring offense, we need much better play from the TEs.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:11 pm 
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So 3TD catches a game instead of just two?

I hear what you are saying but geeesh, James hauled in two TDs Sunday.

With his size, he's a decent RZ target and hasn't shown to have poor hands.

What we need is better and more consistent playcalling.


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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:14 pm 
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Have we ever sent James down the seam for a 15-18 yarder? Ever?

There is so much bullshit with this offense right it drives me nuts. But man do Haley and Tomlin love that little TE screen to James for 3.2 YDS average.


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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:19 pm 
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Orangesteel wrote:
Have we ever sent James down the seam for a 15-18 yarder? Ever?

There is so much bullshit with this offense right it drives me nuts. But man do Haley and Tomlin love that little TE screen to James for 3.2 YDS average.

He takes too long to get there. I'm hoping Vance McDonald will fare better but, honestly, Grimble does that one thing pretty well.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:20 pm 
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955876 wrote:
So 3TD catches a game instead of just two?

I hear what you are saying but geeesh, James hauled in two TDs Sunday.

With his size, he's a decent RZ target and hasn't shown to have poor hands.

What we need is better and more consistent playcalling.

He's just very limited in what he can do to get open and doesn't attract attention or concern from the D.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:21 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
it's still yggy wrote:
I think they (all of them) convince themselves of their perceived successes. Outcome of the game is they won. Takeaway was that "we did what we do" faught hard tough league yada yada

Truth is big plays by Ben to AB, td catches by JJ and blocked punt are the real reasons.

But tomlin/art2/Haley insulate themselves in the belief they're doing the right things, and they don't change until they are genuinely challenge. In that usually happens after a multiple game losing stretch or being beat up on by a 1-5 opponent st home. Something unfortunately needs to shock them out of that shell.

That's the negative version. The positive version which I go back-and-forth believing is they do have a plan and it's a good plan but it will simply take some time to roll out and work well. Tomlin is a person who shows he can adjust on the fly and is willing to make changes and the team will learn and improve as the year goes on and be ready.

Truth is probably both of these at the same time


I can practically guarantee that some small part of Tomlin's brain thinks the Steelers lost the AFCCG last year because Le'veon Bell got injured.

Just like he probably thinks he lost to Denver the year before because he didn't have Bell or Brown, and the year before that to Baltimore because no Bell.

Something always seems to come up that provides a convenient excuse...


No doubt in my mind...


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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:24 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
I can practically guarantee that some small part of Tomlin's brain thinks the Steelers lost the AFCCG last year because Le'veon Bell got injured.

Just like he probably thinks he lost to Denver the year before because he didn't have Bell or Brown, and the year before that to Baltimore because no Bell.

Something always seems to come up that provides a convenient excuse...


We are fortunate to have several clairvoyants here on Steeler Fury.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:24 pm 
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955876 wrote:
So 3TD catches a game instead of just two?

I hear what you are saying but geeesh, James hauled in two TDs Sunday.

With his size, he's a decent RZ target and hasn't shown to have poor hands.

What we need is better and more consistent playcalling.

and Jesse did a good job on his two TDs-- just not sure it's sustainable to really stress the D. Just makes the catches when you get an opportunity and protect the football.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:33 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
955876 wrote:
So 3TD catches a game instead of just two?

I hear what you are saying but geeesh, James hauled in two TDs Sunday.

With his size, he's a decent RZ target and hasn't shown to have poor hands.

What we need is better and more consistent playcalling.

He's just very limited in what he can do to get open and doesn't attract attention or concern from the D.


If he isn't attracting attention or concern from the D shouldnt that lead to a bunch of easy TDs?

And I agree on Grimble. He's shown some ability there


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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:42 pm 
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It is more troubling that they did not adjust. Both outside Wr run flies and the TE runs a skinny post. Peppers can only handle one of them. have Rodgers do a crossing route at 10 yardish. Force the defense to change how they are playing.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:43 pm 
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955876 wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
955876 wrote:
So 3TD catches a game instead of just two?

I hear what you are saying but geeesh, James hauled in two TDs Sunday.

With his size, he's a decent RZ target and hasn't shown to have poor hands.

What we need is better and more consistent playcalling.

He's just very limited in what he can do to get open and doesn't attract attention or concern from the D.


If he isn't attracting attention or concern from the D shouldnt that lead to a bunch of easy TDs?

And I agree on Grimble. He's shown some ability there

If he could get more than 5 yards down field it would

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:46 pm 
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jebrick wrote:
It is more troubling that they did not adjust. Both outside Wr run flies and the TE runs a skinny post. Peppers can only handle one of them. have Rodgers do a crossing route at 10 yardish. Force the defense to change how they are playing.

Just running the outside guys on crossing routes 10 yards down field would do it. Outside guy runs a dig or post, inside guy runs a flag or go.

Turn screens into a stop and go-- they bite so hard on the screen action.

Also, different levels crossing-- it's remarkable the lack of imagination utilized.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:14 pm 
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The top two TEs last year in terms of yards (Kelce & Olsen) had 4 and 3 TDs on the season.

James had 3.

My point is that these TE that can move and put up lots of yards but for whatever reason didn't put up a lot of TDs.

I'm not saying James is a stud but at same time don't think a faster TE would necessarily equate to a much better RZ offense. From the 20 maybe. But not when getting down closer. Which we struggle from as well.

Miller was far from a burner and yet he had his share of TDs.

League leader had 8. James (sharing time) was tied for 6th with 3.

The solution can't always be the requirement to field the better athlete in order to win the battle.

I saw a TD on MNF (think it was Vikes game) where the guy was schemed wide the fuck open from down close. How often to we see that here? Ever?


Last edited by 955876 on Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Re-watch Offense
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:15 pm 
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Quote:
Also, different levels crossing-- it's remarkable the lack of imagination utilized.


Was vanilla route trees also an edict from Deuce in addition to the mandate to run at all cost?


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