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 Post subject: Re: Can Xavier Grimble play a bigger role?
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 11:24 am 
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Kodiak wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
As is the case with most teams. Without a franchise, shit looks bleak. Our darkness is coming.


True, but I think we will see a bigger drop-off because it's rare for this staff to outcoach the other one, or win with the lesser talent.


We'll find out. But the outcome will be the same. No franchise equals darkness.

But if we still have Bell and AB and if the D regains some former glory, we'll prolly be stuck without high draft picks. The Steelers are not incompetent enough to fall off a cliff, IMO. Tomlin buffoonery or not.

I mean if we at least get an Andy Dalton type, we won't be bottom feeding. Could do much worse than Tomlin. Time is going to tell.

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 Post subject: Re: Can Xavier Grimble play a bigger role?
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 12:16 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
955876 wrote:
Bell is a crutch as much as a weapon with this staff.


As is Ben.

Take away their two crutches and the coaching staff is going to be laying on the ground like a helpless cripple unable to move.


I would say Ben is more a mask in that he covers or at the least lessens the impact of their flaws.

Bell literally becomes a crutch. They have this shiny toy that's very effective yet the more effective he is the more they rely on said toy to the point they render him in effective with their stale & predictable schemes.

It'd be nice if they actually relied on Ben more IMO as I feel some of the way the offense operates in general doesn't allow Ben to get into a flow like other QBs are able...

Would be interesting to see what a top tier OC & HC could do with some of our toys...


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 Post subject: Re: Can Xavier Grimble play a bigger role?
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 1:28 pm 
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955876 wrote:
Kodiak wrote:
955876 wrote:
Bell is a crutch as much as a weapon with this staff.


As is Ben.

Take away their two crutches and the coaching staff is going to be laying on the ground like a helpless cripple unable to move.


I would say Ben is more a mask in that he covers or at the least lessens the impact of their flaws.

Bell literally becomes a crutch. They have this shiny toy that's very effective yet the more effective he is the more they rely on said toy to the point they render him in effective with their stale & predictable schemes.

It'd be nice if they actually relied on Ben more IMO as I feel some of the way the offense operates in general doesn't allow Ben to get into a flow like other QBs are able...

Would be interesting to see what a top tier OC & HC could do with some of our toys...


I hear you, 95, but I still contend that if Haley had a better leader at the helm to hold him accountable for preparation and planning, he would immediately become much better himself at what he does.
That leader would need to hold himself to that same accountability as well to set the example.

What we have now is not even close... :cry:

What we see in the Steelers' current "almost-but-not-quite" performance trends is the result of YEARS of this organization going with their collective gut, while maintaining an aversion to using modern tech to map out opponents' trends and make reading of such trends like reading childrens' books...
This is exactly where The Patsies machine has all the advantage, and it shows in dramatic and in most times embarrassing fashion.

The data is there.
Other teams are coming up to speed on how to use it to gain a competitive advantage.
The Patsies have grown into probably the most advanced in the NFL at using the data right now, and their competitive advantage is stark to the point that it looks like cheating
...never mind that it's the Pats... ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Can Xavier Grimble play a bigger role?
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 3:58 pm 
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Steeledge wrote:
The Patsies have grown into probably the most advanced in the NFL at using the data right now, and their competitive advantage is stark to the point that it looks like cheating


Oh they definitely are cheating, too...which is like putting their data on a 'roided up supercomputer while everyone else is crunching numbers with a Commodore 64.

Their advanced metrics lets them put together a surprisingly good team relative to the perceived talent. In Vegas terms, that's an "advantage" player. But it's legal.

It's the cheating that helps them win Superbowls, though. And in Vegas terms, that's cheating.

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 Post subject: Re: Can Xavier Grimble play a bigger role?
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 4:16 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
Steeledge wrote:
The Patsies have grown into probably the most advanced in the NFL at using the data right now, and their competitive advantage is stark to the point that it looks like cheating


Oh they definitely are cheating, too...which is like putting their data on a 'roided up supercomputer while everyone else is crunching numbers with a Commodore 64.

Their advanced metrics lets them put together a surprisingly good team relative to the perceived talent. In Vegas terms, that's an "advantage" player. But it's legal.

It's the cheating that helps them win Superbowls, though. And in Vegas terms, that's cheating.

Right.

So call them "Filthy Fucking Cheaters!"
Then provide the evidence.

See how far that gets you...

:roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Can Xavier Grimble play a bigger role?
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 4:26 pm 
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Steeledge wrote:
So call them "Filthy Fucking Cheaters!"
Then provide the evidence.

See how far that gets you...

:roll:


Same way the few people that really dug into Madoff's returns knew he was cheating. They didn't have the "evidence", but the stats told them it was rotten.

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 Post subject: Re: Can Xavier Grimble play a bigger role?
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 5:39 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
We'll find out. But the outcome will be the same. No franchise equals darkness.



We don't have to be in darkness when Ben retires. We could go back to where we were before Ben, in the playoffs most years but not winning super bowls. Unless "in the playoffs regularly but not winning super bowls" is the darkness for you.


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 Post subject: Re: Can Xavier Grimble play a bigger role?
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 8:37 pm 
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Quote:
but I still contend that if Haley had a better leader at the helm to hold him accountable for preparation and planning, he would immediately become much better himself at what he does.


Fully agree. I hold Tomlin more accountable for the offense than I do Haley.

I'd Tomlin wants something different he would say so. If Haley wasn't delivering then there would be a rift and word would get out. Haley is doing what his bosses want.

Another reason I hold Tomlin more accountable is that OC for this team is a damn good gig. Especially with our weapons. If Haley were gone we'd have plenty of options.

Tomlin thinks what we do is right.

Just like he thought the best way to stop NE was to blow Brady a kiss a drop our pass rushers into coverage.


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 Post subject: Re: Can Xavier Grimble play a bigger role?
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 8:40 pm 
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Poltargyst wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
We'll find out. But the outcome will be the same. No franchise equals darkness.



We don't have to be in darkness when Ben retires. We could go back to where we were before Ben, in the playoffs most years but not winning super bowls. Unless "in the playoffs regularly but not winning super bowls" is the darkness for you.


Kind of like where we've been since the 2009 season, right?


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 Post subject: Re: Can Xavier Grimble play a bigger role?
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 9:01 pm 
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955876 wrote:
Quote:
but I still contend that if Haley had a better leader at the helm to hold him accountable for preparation and planning, he would immediately become much better himself at what he does.


Fully agree. I hold Tomlin more accountable for the offense than I do Haley.

I'd Tomlin wants something different he would say so. If Haley wasn't delivering then there would be a rift and word would get out. Haley is doing what his bosses want.

Another reason I hold Tomlin more accountable is that OC for this team is a damn good gig. Especially with our weapons. If Haley were gone we'd have plenty of options.

Tomlin thinks what we do is right.

Just like he thought the best way to stop NE was to blow Brady a kiss a drop our pass rushers into coverage.

100% correct...but it goes further up than Tomlin. This is exactly what A2 wants out of the offense. That's why Tomlin was hired...that's why Haley was hired.
And that's why neither of the two is going to get fired!

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 Post subject: Re: Can Xavier Grimble play a bigger role?
PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 12:21 pm 
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Deuce is a dunce...


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 Post subject: Re: Can Xavier Grimble play a bigger role?
PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 5:00 pm 
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Obviously there's a lot more to TE than 40 time. But it is important in the ability for a TE to get some separation down the middle.

Green ran 4.45. Outlaw ran a 4.66. Heath Miller ran a 4.7. Grimble ran a 4.9, but a home track 4.76.


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 Post subject: Re: Can Xavier Grimble play a bigger role?
PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 5:10 pm 
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My question about the receivers last year was could Ladarius green and some combination of Wheaton, Coates, dhb, Eli Rodgers, other fill in the blank, offset the losses of heath miller and martavus. Turned out that was a no.

My question this year is can martavus plus juju offset the lack of an impact player at te? Steelers seem to be betting the answer is yes.


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 Post subject: Re: Can Xavier Grimble play a bigger role?
PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 5:55 pm 
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JackLambert58 wrote:
Poltargyst wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
We'll find out. But the outcome will be the same. No franchise equals darkness.



We don't have to be in darkness when Ben retires. We could go back to where we were before Ben, in the playoffs most years but not winning super bowls. Unless "in the playoffs regularly but not winning super bowls" is the darkness for you.


Kind of like where we've been since the 2009 season, right?

Is a playoff season "darkness" for you?


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 Post subject: Re: Can Xavier Grimble play a bigger role?
PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 6:23 pm 
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Stallworth16 wrote:
Obviously there's a lot more to TE than 40 time. But it is important in the ability for a TE to get some separation down the middle.

Green ran 4.45. Outlaw ran a 4.66. Heath Miller ran a 4.7. Grimble ran a 4.9, but a home track 4.76.

Ladarius Green ran 4.56
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=82809&draftyear=2012&genpos=TE

FYI Phazahn Odom's 40 was recorded at 4.78, but I saw the video and hand-timed it in the 4.6s 3 times. Orndoff ran 4.69.

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 Post subject: Re: Can Xavier Grimble play a bigger role?
PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 8:34 pm 
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I laugh when people talk about the period between Ben and Bradshaw. Yeah, some darkness!! The vast majority of teams in the NFL would love to have it so good if those are their down times.

Between those two Hall of Fame QBs we still made it to the AFC championship game with Mark Malone at QB, made it to the AFC championship game with Neil O'Donnell, made it to the Super Bowl with Neil O'Donnell, made it to the AFC championship game with Kordell Stewart twice.

If Ben decides to retire after this year, the team will move on without him. Yes, I would love for him to play out his contract but I don't have this sense of panic that everybody else seems to possess. The rest of the team is not going to just disappear overnight. And we are not going to turn into the Browns either.

In terms of the TEs speeds, I get more excited about 3-cone times. Jesse James may theoretically run a 4.66 and seem faster than Xavier but you look at that 7.53 3 cone time and it really slows him down and makes him seem more mechanical when he is running routes and trying to run after the catch. Grimble was dealing with a calf strain for both his combine and pro day so all his times are suspect to me. All I know is that on tape he is able to separate more than James and seems to have lateral agility and quickness that James does not. He also seems to know how to use his size and weight to run behind his pads better. James looks so awkward trying to power through tacklers.

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 Post subject: Re: Can Xavier Grimble play a bigger role?
PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 9:01 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Stallworth16 wrote:
Obviously there's a lot more to TE than 40 time. But it is important in the ability for a TE to get some separation down the middle.

Green ran 4.45. Outlaw ran a 4.66. Heath Miller ran a 4.7. Grimble ran a 4.9, but a home track 4.76.

Ladarius Green ran 4.56
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=82809&draftyear=2012&genpos=TE

FYI Phazahn Odom's 40 was recorded at 4.78, but I saw the video and hand-timed it in the 4.6s 3 times. Orndoff ran 4.69.

B2B check the nfldraftscout link you posted. Green's high 40 time is a 4.56. Green's mid 40 a 4.45, and his low 40 is a 4.35.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/ds ... &genpos=TE


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 Post subject: Re: Can Xavier Grimble play a bigger role?
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 12:26 am 
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Stallworth16 wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Stallworth16 wrote:
Obviously there's a lot more to TE than 40 time. But it is important in the ability for a TE to get some separation down the middle.

Green ran 4.45. Outlaw ran a 4.66. Heath Miller ran a 4.7. Grimble ran a 4.9, but a home track 4.76.

Ladarius Green ran 4.56
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=82809&draftyear=2012&genpos=TE

FYI Phazahn Odom's 40 was recorded at 4.78, but I saw the video and hand-timed it in the 4.6s 3 times. Orndoff ran 4.69.

B2B check the nfldraftscout link you posted. Green's high 40 time is a 4.56. Green's mid 40 a 4.45, and his low 40 is a 4.35.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/ds ... &genpos=TE

those three times don't really mean anything, except that he once, at some indefinite weight, at some time previous to his draft class year, was rumored to have run some times. The times that matter are the 40 from the combine, or maybe the 40 from pro day. Only time I use an older, less reputable number is if a guy is hurt and doesn't run in his draft year.

Jesse James: 4.83 combine, 4.69 pro day.
ladarius green 4.56 combine
Xavier Grimble 4.90 at pro day
Scott Orndoff 4.79 combine, 4.69 pro day
Phazahn Odom 4.79 pro day

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 Post subject: Re: Can Xavier Grimble play a bigger role?
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 12:16 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Stallworth16 wrote:
Obviously there's a lot more to TE than 40 time. But it is important in the ability for a TE to get some separation down the middle.

Green ran 4.45. Outlaw ran a 4.66. Heath Miller ran a 4.7. Grimble ran a 4.9, but a home track 4.76.

Ladarius Green ran 4.56
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=82809&draftyear=2012&genpos=TE

FYI Phazahn Odom's 40 was recorded at 4.78, but I saw the video and hand-timed it in the 4.6s 3 times. Orndoff ran 4.69.


What type of device did you use to hand time Odom's 40 off of YouTube? iPhone? Swatch watch?


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 Post subject: Re: Can Xavier Grimble play a bigger role?
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:31 pm 
Luca Brasi wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Stallworth16 wrote:
Obviously there's a lot more to TE than 40 time. But it is important in the ability for a TE to get some separation down the middle.

Green ran 4.45. Outlaw ran a 4.66. Heath Miller ran a 4.7. Grimble ran a 4.9, but a home track 4.76.

Ladarius Green ran 4.56
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=82809&draftyear=2012&genpos=TE

FYI Phazahn Odom's 40 was recorded at 4.78, but I saw the video and hand-timed it in the 4.6s 3 times. Orndoff ran 4.69.


What type of device did you use to hand time Odom's 40 off of YouTube? iPhone? Swatch watch?


Im going to guess B2B has a frame counter and looked up YouTubes frames per second rate then added the frame count and got what is likely a more accurate time than any stopwatch device.


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 Post subject: Re: Can Xavier Grimble play a bigger role?
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 5:56 pm 
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In regards to Green being a 4.56 guy or a 4.45 guy. In a Steelers uniform, although he played only a few games, his game speed looked more 4.45 to me. He looked more like a WR than a tight end at full speed. Green's problem was he rarely played and he is very prone to concussions. Speed was his best attribute.


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 Post subject: Re: Can Xavier Grimble play a bigger role?
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 6:23 pm 
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Scunge wrote:
I laugh when people talk about the period between Ben and Bradshaw. Yeah, some darkness!! The vast majority of teams in the NFL would love to have it so good if those are their down times.

Between those two Hall of Fame QBs we still made it to the AFC championship game with Mark Malone at QB, made it to the AFC championship game with Neil O'Donnell, made it to the Super Bowl with Neil O'Donnell, made it to the AFC championship game with Kordell Stewart twice.

If Ben decides to retire after this year, the team will move on without him. Yes, I would love for him to play out his contract but I don't have this sense of panic that everybody else seems to possess. The rest of the team is not going to just disappear overnight. And we are not going to turn into the Browns either.



You don't seem to understand that the owner, GM, HC, and much of the coaching staff of this team are incompetent. Ben is the only thing keeping us afloat. When he retires we will be 5-11 every year.


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 Post subject: Re: Can Xavier Grimble play a bigger role?
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 7:24 pm 
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Nice hyperbole.

You know it's possible for a staff to be competent yet still make mistakes in drafting, roster composition, team vision, game strategy, and execution. All teams for the most part exerpienxe some or all of those mistakes. The bad teams repeat them over and over. The top teams minimize those mistakes or excel enough elsewhere to he point it mitigates the mistakes.

We clearly aren't one of the bad. At the same time, this staff has had enough blunders that played a key role in 5 years without a playoff win and 6 years without being able to secure a bye. All while having a franchise QB and an AFC that's been ripe for the picking in many of those years.

And that not even mentioning the fact that we are not even remotely close to being competitive against our biggest obstacle.

So it's pretty easy to see why some won't have much confidence in the current staff when they no longer have one of the leagues best under center.

5-11 every year? Not likely. But neither are bye weeks & championships unless some things change...


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 Post subject: Re: Can Xavier Grimble play a bigger role?
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 7:35 pm 
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955876 wrote:
Nice hyperbole.

You know it's possible for a staff to be competent yet still make mistakes in drafting, roster composition, team vision, game strategy, and execution. All teams for the most part exerpienxe some or all of those mistakes. The bad teams repeat them over and over. The top teams minimize those mistakes or excel enough elsewhere to he point it mitigates the mistakes.

We clearly aren't one of the bad. At the same time, this staff has had enough blunders that played a key role in 5 years without a playoff win and 6 years without being able to secure a bye. All while having a franchise QB and an AFC that's been ripe for the picking in many of those years.

And that not even mentioning the fact that we are not even remotely close to being competitive against our biggest obstacle.

So it's pretty easy to see why some won't have much confidence in the current staff when they no longer have one of the leagues best under center.

5-11 every year? Not likely. But neither are bye weeks & championships unless some things change...

Good post...but I'm gonna go with incompetent... :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Can Xavier Grimble play a bigger role?
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 7:54 pm 
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Oh at times they've definitely been incompetent. Just not overal to the point they could be labeled as such in totality.

I'm just hoping Tomlin has gotten through "2 Pointers for Dummies" by the time the season starts.

Or at the least review some 3rd grade level math...


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