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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:35 pm 
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swissvale72 wrote:
This is kind of funny. You asshats dismiss the negative effects of losing AB, but want to argue the merits of Ryan Switzer!! :lol: :lol:

What does one have to do with the other?

I don't see anyone dismissing the loss of AB. Some of us believe that the team can OVERCOME the loss of AB. See the difference?

And what does the arguing about whether Switz is a good player have to do with it?

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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:57 pm 
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Poltargyst wrote:
swissvale72 wrote:
TB wrote:
If AB was never going to play another down for the Pittsburgh Steelers, I don't see the point in arguing whether or not we'd be a better team with or without him. On paper? We're definitely worse. In terms of wins and losses? Who knows how it's going to go, if we did we did we wouldn't be sitting here posting on a message board.

There wasn't an option where AB stays on the team, begs for forgiveness, and plays out the contract he signed with Pittsburgh. I mean, that's fun to think about, but that wasn't reality. There was no reconciliation or happy ending. AB drew his line in the sand and burned all the bridges he could before forcing his way out. Of course our offense is better and more explosive with AB. But I'm not going to apologize for being optimistic that the Steelers can still find a way to be a better team next team. Football is the ultimate team game. When we lost Plaxico Burress I was pissed and upset, but they went out the next year and won the damn SB. The Steelers may go 6-10 or they may go 12-4, I don't know, but I do think they've still got a very talented roster and just as good of a chance as anyone else in the AFC.


What's the point in arguing??? Serious??? 'Cuz that's what we do on this esteemed website, argue about anything and everything!! And I don't think it's an equitable comparison...loss of 35-catch Plaxico Burress vs. 100+ catches every fuckin' year Antonio Brown. No need to apologize. And neither am I for having done the math....this team minus arguably the game's best wide receiver AND running back, minus one of the best inside linebackers in the game....still coached by the same dumbfuck, owned by the same dumberfuck....and we're going to be better????? Hope you asshats are right, and your optimism rings true. I'm not feeling it though.

OMG, you're saying this AGAIN?????

Recently posters here have linked to articles about how the players are happy that the drama of recent seasons is gone. Can you seriously not consider that they could be a better team because now they can focus on winning without the distractions in the locker room? Can you seriously not consider that this team could improve in other areas enough to overcome the loss of AB and be a better team? These things are just so impossible to you????????


Not impossible...just not likely.

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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:13 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
swissvale72 wrote:
And I don't think it's an equitable comparison...loss of 35-catch Plaxico Burress vs. 100+ catches every fuckin' year Antonio Brown. No need to apologize. And neither am I for having done the math....
With all due respect sir, this is your problem.

Life, like football, is not all about the math.


Ever heard of figure of speech?

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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:07 pm 
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swissvale72 wrote:
Not impossible...just not likely.


We didn't make the playoffs with MC Hammer Jr, the stat whore, gobbling up catches.

I predict we're gonna make the playoffs without his baby mama abusing, furniture and tantrum throwing, 110 in a 40 MPH driving, RETARD ASS.

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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:59 pm 
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KC wrote:
swissvale72 wrote:
Not impossible...just not likely.


We didn't make the playoffs with MC Hammer Jr, the stat whore, gobbling up catches.

I predict we're gonna make the playoffs without his baby mama abusing, furniture and tantrum throwing, 110 in a 40 MPH driving, RETARD ASS.


Certainly affected his play, didn't it??? Driving 110 Thursday morning...catching 6 balls for 96 yards and a 53 yard TD that Thursday night!!!

Wasn't a one of us asshats bitching about AB following that Carolina Thursday nighter!!

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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:19 pm 
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swissvale72 wrote:
KC wrote:
swissvale72 wrote:
Not impossible...just not likely.


We didn't make the playoffs with MC Hammer Jr, the stat whore, gobbling up catches.

I predict we're gonna make the playoffs without his baby mama abusing, furniture and tantrum throwing, 110 in a 40 MPH driving, RETARD ASS.


Certainly affected his play, didn't it??? Driving 110 Thursday morning...catching 6 balls for 96 yards and a 53 yard TD that Thursday night!!!

Wasn't a one of us asshats bitching about AB following that Carolina Thursday nighter!!


I'm not sure how many of us asshats knew MC Hammer Jr was planning to quit on his team, at that point.

Wait, being that it was reported MC Hammer Jr quit on his team a whopping 3 times during the season, I'm pretty sure his teammates were happy he decided to play that week.

Ben feeding him targets all day (like usual) probably kept the fucking idiot from spousal abuse or furniture throwing that day too so that's always a good thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:23 pm 
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Maybe Ben feeding him targets all day had a little to do with the guy getting open and catching the ball.

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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:34 pm 
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swissvale72 wrote:
Maybe Ben feeding him targets all day had a little to do with the guy getting open and catching the ball.


Like the last play of the Denver game.

Yeah, nobody else gets open.

Just MC Hammer Jr.

....and maybe his threats to quit on a weekly basis had more to do with Ben feeding him targets than him getting open and making catches.

But again, I'm looking very forward to this upcoming season. Zero doubt in my mind Ben will make somebody else a star, MC Hammer Jr will go nuts and become a major distraction for the Raiders playing with Derek Carr and the Steelers will be better off without the drama this scumbag brought into the locker room.

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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:54 pm 
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KC wrote:
swissvale72 wrote:
Maybe Ben feeding him targets all day had a little to do with the guy getting open and catching the ball.


Like the last play of the Denver game.

Yeah, nobody else gets open.

Just MC Hammer Jr.

....and maybe his threats to quit on a weekly basis had more to do with Ben feeding him targets than him getting open and making catches.

But again, I'm looking very forward to this upcoming season. Zero doubt in my mind Ben will make somebody else a star, MC Hammer Jr will go nuts and become a major distraction for the Raiders playing with Derek Carr and the Steelers will be better off without the drama this scumbag brought into the locker room.


So we're supposed to believe the game-ending pick against Denver was AB's fault? Oh right...Ben told us so on his radio show.

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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:46 pm 
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swissvale72 wrote:
KC wrote:
swissvale72 wrote:
Maybe Ben feeding him targets all day had a little to do with the guy getting open and catching the ball.


Like the last play of the Denver game.

Yeah, nobody else gets open.

Just MC Hammer Jr.

....and maybe his threats to quit on a weekly basis had more to do with Ben feeding him targets than him getting open and making catches.

But again, I'm looking very forward to this upcoming season. Zero doubt in my mind Ben will make somebody else a star, MC Hammer Jr will go nuts and become a major distraction for the Raiders playing with Derek Carr and the Steelers will be better off without the drama this scumbag brought into the locker room.


So we're supposed to believe the game-ending pick against Denver was AB's fault? Oh right...Ben told us so on his radio show.


That's not what he said. He broke the play down as he was asked to. I scrubbed that play on the all 22. Everything he said was true.

Ben threw the football where the route was designed for AB to be. There was a window to throw thru as Ben started to draw his arm back and at that exact moment Pouncey started pushing the NT into the path of the route. The NT knowing he was beaten, in desperation looked up since he knew he was badly beaten and out of position and it was the only thing he could do... he left his feet to make the pick landing 1-2 yds deep in the EZ.

Ben kept his head up thru the entire play, thru the collision with the RB... it appears he was zeroed in on his read and never lost focus on the play which is why I don't blame the playmaker for not giving up on the play at that point.

Having said all that, it would have been better if Ben had just fallen on the sword when asked about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:14 pm 
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Here's what I remember. Post-game, everyone rightfully put the onus on Ben for throwing a dumbshit pass, through not only one, but two defenders. Then....Ben gets on the radio, and by mid-week, people aren't believing what their eyes told them.

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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:50 pm 
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Not everyone, Swiss

Tunch's breakdown of the play was what I described regarding Pouncey and the NT. He never said Ben's throw was good or bad, he never addressed AB's route.

Tunch: "Pouncey did too good of a job blocking on the play but you can't blame him for that".

Interesting thing about scrubbing tape on the all 22... it's interesting how many reactions are wrong. There is too much happening too fast and often we don't even know at the time what players assignments are, plus no overhead angle all 22. For example, receivers often get blamed for drops in the game thread when what really happened is a db got his hand in there or the db grabbed a wrist or a forearm etc...

It was a RPO (I don't like the call with Ben at qb in this situation)... bang bang into often tight windows. AB was supposed to be standing on the goal line which is where Ben threw the football.

Also in play was the db who was blocking AB's route path but once AB got clear he had a choice to make... either cut back across the field as the play was intended or angle to the back of the EZ which is what he did. Ben's explanation for why the wr is not supposed to angle to the back of the EZ on that play is because of what happened... it allows the db to undercut the route. Makes sense to me.

Difference between Ben and AB in this issue, is Ben actually gave a football breakdown of the play. Has AB ever done this? To my knowledge he has not and I believe it's because he can't in defense of himself, all he can do is sling mud.

Final thought...

If you only need the TV angle in real time and a couple replays, maybe you should hit up Belichick for a job? :D


Last edited by Havoc on Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:22 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:19 pm 
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Havoc wrote:
It was a RPO (I don't like the call with Ben at qb in this situation)... bang bang into often tight windows.


That's why I hated the play - Ben is not asked to make a read, he's asked to make a quick throw to a spot. The play relies 100% on trickery/scheme to work, and that's an awful call with a HOF QB when it's only 3rd down.


And, you know, Arians made a similar call in the SB against GB. Some sort of unusual screen over the middle which had 0 chance of working and also got picked.

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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:42 am 
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Havoc wrote:
Not everyone, Swiss

Tunch's breakdown of the play was what I described regarding Pouncey and the NT. He never said Ben's throw was good or bad, he never addressed AB's route.

Tunch: "Pouncey did too good of a job blocking on the play but you can't blame him for that".

Interesting thing about scrubbing tape on the all 22... it's interesting how many reactions are wrong. There is too much happening too fast and often we don't even know at the time what players assignments are, plus no overhead angle all 22. For example, receivers often get blamed for drops in the game thread when what really happened is a db got his hand in there or the db grabbed a wrist or a forearm etc...

It was a RPO (I don't like the call with Ben at qb in this situation)... bang bang into often tight windows. AB was supposed to be standing on the goal line which is where Ben threw the football.

Also in play was the db who was blocking AB's route path but once AB got clear he had a choice to make... either cut back across the field as the play was intended or angle to the back of the EZ which is what he did. Ben's explanation for why the wr is not supposed to angle to the back of the EZ on that play is because of what happened... it allows the db to undercut the route. Makes sense to me.

Difference between Ben and AB in this issue, is Ben actually gave a football breakdown of the play. Has AB ever done this? To my knowledge he has not and I believe it's because he can't in defense of himself, all he can do is sling mud.

Final thought...

If you only need the TV angle in real time and a couple replays, maybe you should hit up Belichick for a job? :D


At the time, the difference between Ben and AB on this issue, was that Ben was publicly critical of AB's route-running and AB said publicly that he had no problem with Ben's comments. At least, that's how I remember it.

This particular segment started with the issue of Ben forcing throws to AB. Of course, none of us know the extent, if any, that that occurs due to AB bitching and moaning about targets, or the extent, if any, to which it happens, due to Ben being overly reliant on arguably the best receiver in the game. This play was cited as an example of the former. My guess...for what it's worth, probably not much (Fast Willie Parker said that once) is that's it's far more likely an example of the latter.

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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:36 am 
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Where I'm at, I do not think it likely, but I do think it is a real possibility that were AB still on the team come this Fall, the Steelers would be worse with him than without him. Because, unfortunately, his otherworldly talents cannot be separated from his end-of-the-season behavior. If AB post-NO game is the guy that is on the team, it's not a stretch to say they are worse off with him than without.

Swiss, please do not respond by saying, You weren't saying this when he was catching footballs between his ass cheeks and scoring 18 TDs. Certainly I was not. But I'm not talking about the AB that did not quit on the team and sabotage his way out of town.

If the Steelers keep that guy and play hardball, then they have a total malcontent and no extra 3rd and 5th rounder.

I propose an addendum to the debate:

I agree the Steelers are absolutely worse without the AB that still had not turned into a malcontent.

I am not ready to agree that the Steelers are obviously better off with an AB that is a malcontent. Keeping him...might have done more harm than good.

IIRC, TB, Kodiak were both arguing that AB should be traded when AB was demanding it on the grounds that he was now such a malcontent that keeping him does more harm than good.

My contention with your position all along is that you have been framing your argument as if the only relevant factor in assessing whether the team will be worse off without than with is AB's talent. If that were the only factor, I would be right with you. But ABs talent is not the only factor. His character, his grievances, his behavior post-NO...that comes with the talent. Those grievances and behavior might very well have made the Steelers even worse than they will be without him.

(Oh, and saying, yeah, but I believe AB would change, be welcomed back into the fold, fly right, well, sure he might. And you might suddenly change your character and not be so given to eristic when you disagree with post. AB is who he is. As are you. People don't get sprinkled with fairy dust and magically change.)

So...to be clear...(if anyone is still reading by now)...yeah, the Steelers are likely going to be worse without AB...but very possibly not as bad as they would be had they held onto him and played hard ball...

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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:54 am 
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I'm not necessarily suggesting that Steelers could have, Lit, moved ahead with AB. In previous posts, I stated that I was HOPEFUL that this could have been worked out...and I stand by that optimism.

However, my most pressing contention, was that there's no way, no how, this team will be better WITHOUT Antonio Brown, and the production that he brings. THAT has been the essence of my dispute. Minus Antonio Brown, minus Leveon Bell, minus Ryan Shazier, still coached by the Dumbfuck Mike Tomlin, still owned by the Dumberfuck Art Rooney II...and this team will be improved???? I don't think so!! Again, hope I"m dead wrong!!

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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:29 pm 
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swissvale72 wrote:
I'm not necessarily suggesting that Steelers could have, Lit, moved ahead with AB. In previous posts, I stated that I was HOPEFUL that this could have been worked out...and I stand by that optimism.

However, my most pressing contention, was that there's no way, no how, this team will be better WITHOUT Antonio Brown, and the production that he brings. THAT has been the essence of my dispute. Minus Antonio Brown, minus Leveon Bell, minus Ryan Shazier, still coached by the Dumbfuck Mike Tomlin, still owned by the Dumberfuck Art Rooney II...and this team will be improved???? I don't think so!! Again, hope I"m dead wrong!!



No way, no how, huh? So, you're saying they're guaranteed to be worse, which makes it sound like you're ready to agree to my proposal!

Good deal! This should be fun!


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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:12 pm 
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swissvale72 wrote:
I'm not necessarily suggesting that Steelers could have, Lit, moved ahead with AB. In previous posts, I stated that I was HOPEFUL that this could have been worked out...and I stand by that optimism.

However, my most pressing contention, was that there's no way, no how, this team will be better WITHOUT Antonio Brown, and the production that he brings. THAT has been the essence of my dispute. Minus Antonio Brown, minus Leveon Bell, minus Ryan Shazier, still coached by the Dumbfuck Mike Tomlin, still owned by the Dumberfuck Art Rooney II...and this team will be improved???? I don't think so!! Again, hope I"m dead wrong!!


So you’re guaranteeing the Steelers can’t be a playoff team this year?

:lol:

Oh, okay.

When they are, I cannot wait to see what you have to say.

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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:42 pm 
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KC wrote:
swissvale72 wrote:
I'm not necessarily suggesting that Steelers could have, Lit, moved ahead with AB. In previous posts, I stated that I was HOPEFUL that this could have been worked out...and I stand by that optimism.

However, my most pressing contention, was that there's no way, no how, this team will be better WITHOUT Antonio Brown, and the production that he brings. THAT has been the essence of my dispute. Minus Antonio Brown, minus Leveon Bell, minus Ryan Shazier, still coached by the Dumbfuck Mike Tomlin, still owned by the Dumberfuck Art Rooney II...and this team will be improved???? I don't think so!! Again, hope I"m dead wrong!!


So you’re guaranteeing the Steelers can’t be a playoff team this year?

:lol:

Oh, okay.

When they are, I cannot wait to see what you have to say.


Here's what I'll say, KC. I'll say I"m very happy, that I'm over the fuckin' moon that you asshats were right, and I was wrong. That said, seems like you're catching whatever has afflicted the Dumbfuck Lipps, above. I'm guaranteeing nothing. I've said I hope I'm wrong. I don't think the Steelers get better minus a wide of AB's talent and production. WHAT is so hard to understand about that????

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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:46 pm 
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swissvale72 wrote:
KC wrote:
swissvale72 wrote:
I'm not necessarily suggesting that Steelers could have, Lit, moved ahead with AB. In previous posts, I stated that I was HOPEFUL that this could have been worked out...and I stand by that optimism.

However, my most pressing contention, was that there's no way, no how, this team will be better WITHOUT Antonio Brown, and the production that he brings. THAT has been the essence of my dispute. Minus Antonio Brown, minus Leveon Bell, minus Ryan Shazier, still coached by the Dumbfuck Mike Tomlin, still owned by the Dumberfuck Art Rooney II...and this team will be improved???? I don't think so!! Again, hope I"m dead wrong!!


So you’re guaranteeing the Steelers can’t be a playoff team this year?

:lol:

Oh, okay.

When they are, I cannot wait to see what you have to say.


Here's what I'll say, KC. I'll say I"m very happy, that I'm over the fuckin' moon that you asshats were right, and I was wrong. That said, seems like you're catching whatever has afflicted the Dumbfuck Lipps, above. I'm guaranteeing nothing. I've said I hope I'm wrong. I don't think the Steelers get better minus a wide of AB's talent and production. WHAT is so hard to understand about that????


You're a liar.

The sentence "no way, no how, this team will be better WITHOUT Antonio Brown, and the production that he brings" is a fucking guarantee.

If there's "no way, no how" the alternative scenario can happen, they're fucking guaranteeing that the other is going to happen.

Jesus Christ are you dense.


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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:53 pm 
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Head I Win, Tails You Lose Lipps, with no sense of figure of speech, or hyperbole...calling someone else dense. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Obviously, you fuckin' dolt, I can't GUARANTEE that Steelers won't improve their won-lost, won't make the playoffs. For the, pick a number, time...I'm simply not buying that the Steelers are an improved football team when losing a talent like Antonio Brown. What I've said from the beginning, Dunce Cap!

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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:10 pm 
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swissvale72 wrote:
Head I Win, Tails You Lose Lipps, with no sense of figure of speech, or hyperbole...calling someone else dense. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Obviously, you fuckin' dolt, I can't GUARANTEE that Steelers won't improve their won-lost, won't make the playoffs. For the, pick a number, time...I'm simply not buying that the Steelers are an improved football team when losing a talent like Antonio Brown. What I've said from the beginning, Dunce Cap!



Well then stop saying dumb shit like "No way, no how" to describe it.


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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:54 pm 
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Louis Lipps Service wrote:
swissvale72 wrote:
Head I Win, Tails You Lose Lipps, with no sense of figure of speech, or hyperbole...calling someone else dense. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Obviously, you fuckin' dolt, I can't GUARANTEE that Steelers won't improve their won-lost, won't make the playoffs. For the, pick a number, time...I'm simply not buying that the Steelers are an improved football team when losing a talent like Antonio Brown. What I've said from the beginning, Dunce Cap!



Well then stop saying dumb shit like "No way, no how" to describe it.


Literal Lipps... leading dumb fuck of Steeler fury.com

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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:47 pm 
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swissvale72 wrote:
Louis Lipps Service wrote:
swissvale72 wrote:
Head I Win, Tails You Lose Lipps, with no sense of figure of speech, or hyperbole...calling someone else dense. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Obviously, you fuckin' dolt, I can't GUARANTEE that Steelers won't improve their won-lost, won't make the playoffs. For the, pick a number, time...I'm simply not buying that the Steelers are an improved football team when losing a talent like Antonio Brown. What I've said from the beginning, Dunce Cap!



Well then stop saying dumb shit like "No way, no how" to describe it.


Literal Lipps... leading dumb fuck of Steeler fury.com


"There is no way no how the Steelers will be a better team without AB."

vs.

"I don't think the Steelers will be a better team without AB, but I could be wrong."

You're saying the first, but you seem to really mean the second. Do you see how people might respond differently to you when you say the first as opposed to saying the second?

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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:54 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Where I'm at, I do not think it likely, but I do think it is a real possibility that were AB still on the team come this Fall, the Steelers would be worse with him than without him. Because, unfortunately, his otherworldly talents cannot be separated from his end-of-the-season behavior. If AB post-NO game is the guy that is on the team, it's not a stretch to say they are worse off with him than without.

Swiss, please do not respond by saying, You weren't saying this when he was catching footballs between his ass cheeks and scoring 18 TDs. Certainly I was not. But I'm not talking about the AB that did not quit on the team and sabotage his way out of town.

If the Steelers keep that guy and play hardball, then they have a total malcontent and no extra 3rd and 5th rounder.

I propose an addendum to the debate:

I agree the Steelers are absolutely worse without the AB that still had not turned into a malcontent.

I am not ready to agree that the Steelers are obviously better off with an AB that is a malcontent. Keeping him...might have done more harm than good.

IIRC, TB, Kodiak were both arguing that AB should be traded when AB was demanding it on the grounds that he was now such a malcontent that keeping him does more harm than good.

My contention with your position all along is that you have been framing your argument as if the only relevant factor in assessing whether the team will be worse off without than with is AB's talent. If that were the only factor, I would be right with you. But ABs talent is not the only factor. His character, his grievances, his behavior post-NO...that comes with the talent. Those grievances and behavior might very well have made the Steelers even worse than they will be without him.

(Oh, and saying, yeah, but I believe AB would change, be welcomed back into the fold, fly right, well, sure he might. And you might suddenly change your character and not be so given to eristic when you disagree with post. AB is who he is. As are you. People don't get sprinkled with fairy dust and magically change.)

So...to be clear...(if anyone is still reading by now)...yeah, the Steelers are likely going to be worse without AB...but very possibly not as bad as they would be had they held onto him and played hard ball...

This is a good explanation I can get behind except I hold out the possibilty the Steelers could be a better team this year if they succeed in improving the coaching and talent in other areas enough to overcome the loss of AB.

_________________
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
--Voltaire

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