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 Post subject: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:02 am 
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TOM BRADY
2009 (with Randy Moss) 10-6 371/565 4398yds 28 TD/13 INT 7.8 YPA, 7.7 A/YA

2010 Wout Randy Moss) 14-2 324/492 3900yds 36 TD/4 INT 7.9YPA , 9.0 A/YPA

BEN ROETHLISBERGER
2018 (with Ant Brown) 9-7-1 452/675 5129yds 34TD/16 INT 7.6 YPA, 7.5 A/YPA

2019 ???

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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:39 am 
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While I am in the camp of AB needing to go, there is more than just numbers here. Ben to AB will go down as one of the most prolific combos in NFL history. Manning/Harrison, Montana/Rice territory. Bi-directional mind reading type shit. Hard to replace that quickly.


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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:08 pm 
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the-other-burg wrote:
While I am in the camp of AB needing to go, there is more than just numbers here. Ben to AB will go down as one of the most prolific combos in NFL history. Manning/Harrison, Montana/Rice territory. Bi-directional mind reading type shit. Hard to replace that quickly.

I’m on this boat too. How many times have we seen Ben looking to make something happen, “force” a ball to AB and he somehow came up with the catch? Those “how the fuck did he do that”’plays. There were many, and that is gone until Ben finds that trust in someone else.
We all love JuJu, and he certainly can be that guy, but who will be the next guy? I’m on the fence over Washington, Moncrief, Johnson until they show they can or can’t do it. And let’s be honest, so far Washington and Moncrief are slanted to the can’t side.

AB needed to go, but that left a hole in the offense that won’t be easy to fill.


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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:14 pm 
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Before the thread inevitably gets shit on, I'll add the following:

1) Moss was easily the most talented WR Brady ever got to work with, and while it wasn't for the length of time Ben and Brown were together, both WR shared, shall we say, a strong desire to be targeted as often as possible, and Brady compensated for the loss by spreading the ball around.

2) If also losing the diva WR who desires maximum targets results in a similar decline in interceptions, you're looking at an MVP caliber season from Ben in 2019-20.

3) It isn't a substitute for wifi/radar lock/etc., but full participation by Ben in OTA's and offseason activity in general, along with some group R and R in GA, seems to have made a big difference already in the WR room and on the offense in general, from reading the reports available so far.


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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:59 pm 
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This is cherry-picking BS at its finest.

In 2007 (he was hurt in 2008), Brady had a record year with 50 TD's and 8 picks.....with 23 TD's to Moss.

In 2011 - not the next year but 2 years after Moss left - Brady had 39 TD's and 12 picks.


There is no doubt the offense will keep on clicking without AB. Ben throwing less picks is probably a sucker bet.

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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:11 pm 
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I'd like to see those stats for a with/ without Gronk.

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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:15 pm 
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Juju is the real deal. 2 of the other WRs need to emerge as a threat, one wide and one in the slot. Juju will be drawing double coverage without AB.


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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:39 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
TOM BRADY
2009 (with Randy Moss) 10-6 371/565 4398yds 28 TD/13 INT 7.8 YPA, 7.7 A/YA

2010 Wout Randy Moss) 14-2 324/492 3900yds 36 TD/4 INT 7.9YPA , 9.0 A/YPA

BEN ROETHLISBERGER
2018 (with Ant Brown) 9-7-1 452/675 5129yds 34TD/16 INT 7.6 YPA, 7.5 A/YPA

2019 ???



It’s a team sport


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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:14 pm 
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Comparing ben to brady is like compaing terry bradshaw to mark malone. Same thing with AB-Moss.

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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:29 pm 
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Lynch wrote:
Comparing ben to brady is like compaing terry bradshaw to mark malone. Same thing with AB-Moss.


Think that's a little extreme.


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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:36 pm 
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Rod & Wire Mill wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
TOM BRADY
2009 (with Randy Moss) 10-6 371/565 4398yds 28 TD/13 INT 7.8 YPA, 7.7 A/YA

2010 Wout Randy Moss) 14-2 324/492 3900yds 36 TD/4 INT 7.9YPA , 9.0 A/YPA

BEN ROETHLISBERGER
2018 (with Ant Brown) 9-7-1 452/675 5129yds 34TD/16 INT 7.6 YPA, 7.5 A/YPA

2019 ???



It’s a team sport


Exactly. The idea that this team can't be any better next season just because AB is no longer around is completely off base. They may be better, they may be worse, they may suck, or they may win the whole damn thing. Football is the ultimate team sport. I like our chances the same as anyone else in the AFC.

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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:48 pm 
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IMO, in no other team sport is preparation and strategy...coaching, more important. Soooo....


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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:51 pm 
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Lynch wrote:
Comparing ben to brady is like compaing terry bradshaw to mark malone. Same thing with AB-Moss.


It's all Belicheat (and Ernie). Everyone else in that offense is plug-n-play, why should QB be any different?

In fact, we have some evidence that's exactly the case. If that offense can make Matt Cassell and Jimmy Garapalo into franchise QB's, imagine what it would do for Ben or Rogers.

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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:04 pm 
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Lynch wrote:
Comparing ben to brady is like compaing terry bradshaw to mark malone. Same thing with AB-Moss.


I think you're going to find out this season just how fucking stupid this comment is.

Brady is the best at spreading the ball around.

Roethlisberger is likely the 2nd best overall finding the open receiver behind Brady, with the possible exception of Brees.

Like I said, Ben definitely has a chip on his shoulder this year with dumbfucks actually believing he can't win without Fuckface (even though all Ben ever did without Fuckface was win, so........)

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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:06 pm 
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We actually don't have to strain too hard to imagine life without AB, or the WRs being more productive without him, that the offense could be better without him. How can I say that?? Look at last season.

Leveon Bell was supposedly the best RB in the NFL, the absolute best, so dangerous as a runner and receiver, or so we have been told.

This is what he did in 2017:

406 touches, for 1946 combined yards, averaging 4.8 yards per touch and he scored 11 TDs.

Bell had 321 carries for 1,291 yards, a 4.0 yard per carry, 9 TDs. He was targeted 106 times, had 85 catches for 655 yards, a 7.7 yard per catch, and 2 TDs. He had 4 100 yard rushing games.

So, Bell sits out all of 2018 and what does the RBs that start in his place do??

James Conner and Jaylin Samuels combined for this in 2018:

352 touches for 1,925 yards, a 5.5 yards per touch and they scored 16 TDs. Conner/JaySam had 54 less touches yet came within 21 yards of what Bell had achieved in 2017 for yards combined. They had 54 less touches yet scored 16 TDs to Bell's 11 TDs.

In nearly every metric that you can imagine, Conner/JaySam eclipsed what Bell had done the year before.

16 TDs / 11 TDs
5.5 yards per touch / 4.8 yards per touch
81% catch rate / 80.2% catch rate
4.5 yards per carry / 4.0 yards per carry
8.6 yards per catch / 7.7 yards per carry
6.96 yards per target / 6.2 yards per target
4 TD catches / 2 TD catches
12 TD runs / 9 TD runs
6 100 yard rushing games / 4 100 yard rushing games

Conner/JaySam did what is bolded above last season. They were effectively both rookies and had a rookie OC in Fitchner and yet they easily outproduced what Bell had done the previous year.

I look at that and think to myself, wow, how much of an ego do you have to think that you are this generational talent, once in a lifetime talent like Bell thinks of himself, like how his supporters think too?? Surely that is really just hyperbole when you look at how a 3rd round and 5th round pick, still both wet behind the ears in terms of the NFL, can come in and easily replace Bell.

It is a team sport and this offense is going to do just fine without Brown, I can look to last season and see how the Steelers easily replaced Bell and gives me confidence that they can do it again. In fact I think that gave them the confidence to jettison Brown this offseason.

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Last edited by Scunge on Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:07 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
Lynch wrote:
Comparing ben to brady is like compaing terry bradshaw to mark malone. Same thing with AB-Moss.


It's all Belicheat (and Ernie). Everyone else in that offense is plug-n-play, why should QB be any different?

In fact, we have some evidence that's exactly the case. If that offense can make Matt Cassell and Jimmy Garapalo into franchise QB's, imagine what it would do for Ben or Rogers.

So is it something we/the rest of the league could replicate or is it top secret stuff from the mind of Ernie that the rest of the league hasn't figured out yet?

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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:09 pm 
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Quote:
1) Moss was easily the most talented WR Brady ever got to work with, and while it wasn't for the length of time Ben and Brown were together, both WR shared, shall we say, a strong desire to be targeted as often as possible, and Brady compensated for the loss by spreading the ball around.

2) If also losing the diva WR who desires maximum targets results in a similar decline in interceptions, you're looking at an MVP caliber season from Ben in 2019-20.


These are the two points I took from this info.

On the pessimist side, the Pats added Gronk & Hernandez that year. If JuJu and Deionte Johnson can match Gronk-Hernandez production on the field during their careers, and if this results in when spreading it around more... it could be a good thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:14 pm 
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Poltargyst wrote:
So is it something we/the rest of the league could replicate or is it top secret stuff from the mind of Ernie that the rest of the league hasn't figured out yet?


And what about Belicheat's coaching tree?

I agree.....not the X's and O's, or even the Jimmy's and Joe's, that people can't replicate.

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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:18 pm 
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I think we going to see something with BEN .He going to not have to force the ball into AB snd that might decrease his INTS. I also think his yardage might drop to missing AB just because of his ability. So we going to see who can step up to get some of those yards and TD;s I will say i very excited to see what Moncrief does.


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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:21 pm 
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KC wrote:
Lynch wrote:
Comparing ben to brady is like compaing terry bradshaw to mark malone. Same thing with AB-Moss.


I think you're going to find out this season just how fucking stupid this comment is.

Brady is the best at spreading the ball around.

Roethlisberger is likely the 2nd best overall finding the open receiver behind Brady, with the possible exception of Brees.

Like I said, Ben definitely has a chip on his shoulder this year with dumbfucks actually believing he can't win without Fuckface (even though all Ben ever did without Fuckface was win, so........)


I certainly do hope what you say comes to pass. And I have no doubt Ben will go out swinging like a soldier. I admire that about him, But how many playoff games has Brady aced on the way to how many super bowls? More than Bradshaw now isn't it? And how many times has Ben Int'ed us out of contention?

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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:41 pm 
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Said this in another thread, but the Steelers also didn't draft Washington in the 2nd round because they wanted to upgrade Eli Rogers. They began acquiring pieces to compensate for the loss of Brown earlier than this offseason. Johnson, Washington and Moncrief can, between them, likely match that production.


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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:41 pm 
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Lynch wrote:
KC wrote:
Lynch wrote:
Comparing ben to brady is like compaing terry bradshaw to mark malone. Same thing with AB-Moss.


I think you're going to find out this season just how fucking stupid this comment is.

Brady is the best at spreading the ball around.

Roethlisberger is likely the 2nd best overall finding the open receiver behind Brady, with the possible exception of Brees.

Like I said, Ben definitely has a chip on his shoulder this year with dumbfucks actually believing he can't win without Fuckface (even though all Ben ever did without Fuckface was win, so........)


I certainly do hope what you say comes to pass. And I have no doubt Ben will go out swinging like a soldier. I admire that about him, But how many playoff games has Brady aced on the way to how many super bowls? More than Bradshaw now isn't it? And how many times has Ben Int'ed us out of contention?


Not many.

For instance, when you look at the Jacksonville home loss.

Ben had 2 very unfortunate INT's. One was a Pick Six. The other was pretty close.

Let's say you give Jacksonville 14 points directly on Ben.

The Steelers offense, nearly exclusively behind Roethlisberger's passing, SCORED 42 FUCKING POINTS.

Explain to me how that loss is on Ben?

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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:45 pm 
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Ice wrote:
Said this in another thread, but the Steelers also didn't draft Washington in the 2nd round because they wanted to upgrade Eli Rogers. They began acquiring pieces to compensate for the loss of Brown earlier than this offseason. Johnson, Washington and Moncrief can, between them, likely match that production.


Those guys should be VERY good this year, but I also expect to see Jaylen Samuels run plenty of routes as a receiver this year, ala Bell.

Zero doubt in my mind we will see Samuels on the field whether Conner is behind Ben, or Snell is behind Ben.

Samuels will become a SERIOUS FUCKING WEAPON as a receiver in 2019.

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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:50 pm 
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KC wrote:

Not many.

For instance, when you look at the Jacksonville home loss.

Ben had 2 very unfortunate INT's. One was a Pick Six. The other was pretty close.

Let's say you give Jacksonville 14 points directly on Ben.

The Steelers offense, nearly exclusively behind Roethlisberger's passing, SCORED 42 FUCKING POINTS.

Explain to me how that loss is on Ben?


Aint sayin' that one's all on him, but... Do you think Brady would have thrown those pics?

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 Post subject: Re: Losing Your Best WR but Getting Better
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:58 pm 
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Lynch wrote:
KC wrote:

Not many.

For instance, when you look at the Jacksonville home loss.

Ben had 2 very unfortunate INT's. One was a Pick Six. The other was pretty close.

Let's say you give Jacksonville 14 points directly on Ben.

The Steelers offense, nearly exclusively behind Roethlisberger's passing, SCORED 42 FUCKING POINTS.

Explain to me how that loss is on Ben?


Aint sayin' that one's all on him, but... Do you think Brady would have thrown those pics?


Do you think New England's D would have given up 5 TDs against the Jags playing at home? 5 TDs in 5 red zone trips, let the Jags average over 8 yards a pass and convert 8 of 14 from third down? 0 sacks and 0 turnovers on defense in 61 offensive plays ran by the Jags?

That Jax game probably features 2 or 3 of the best 20-30 plays of Big Ben's career. I'm talking other-worldly plays.

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