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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:10 pm 
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Havoc wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
No you're not calling AB a JAG and you are good to remind me of that so that this does not end up a debate about a straw man.

I do not deny that a catch radius is important, but my point of sticking a bunch of question and exclamations after "catch radius" is to remind us that AB without a super big catch radius nonetheless pulls in insane catches. The guy is a human highlight reel! He seems to do just fine without a catch radius.

His talent is NOT the reason the offense has underperformed. I just don't see it. His ego, maybe.

Honest question: who would you take in his prime, AB or Fitz?


AB has fantastic hand eye coordination. There have always been guys in the league with fantastic hand eye coordination. Now you might think I'm downplaying AB's hand eye coordination.

Fitzgerald.

And I'll remind everyone that my position is that AB is a HOFer and he earned that.


"There have always been guys in the league with fantastic hand eye coordination."

Like AB?

If so, then why does AB dominate so much?

I know some want to say Ben is the reason, but that does not work because none of Ben's other receivers have played like AB has as consistently as AB has.

I do think you are under appreciating ABs talents.

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We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:12 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Name the amazing talent on defense. They've assembled some nice talent on O since the D got old, but overall it's not like they have greatly underperformed their talent level.

Could they have been better? Yes. Could things have been optimized for more wins? Yes. Is it ultimately the HC's fault when the previously unstoppable PK costs you multiple games? Of course it is.

I'm only saying that the scoreboard tells a different tale: Tomlin has had the second-best results in the Brady era. Has the second most wins, only Coughlin & Fox have as many SB appearances, and only Coughlin more SB wins.


The team from 2007-2011 had amazing talent on defense and Ben was in his prime to make an offense with not great talent go just enough to win.

Not surprising that they had a .688 winning percentage, 2 AFCCG appearances, 2 Super Bowls, and one Lombardi and 4 playoff appearances in 5 years.

But when that defense was done, they had only a .643 WP, only 4 playoff appearances in 7 years, one AFCCG and no Super Bowls. And only three lackluster playoff wins to show for that.


And even if you only consider the team after the defense fell off a cliff, why has the offense under performed so often with such immense talent?

I fear we are heading toward a potted plant debate!

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We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:17 pm 
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955876 wrote:
I’m actually a bit shocked Tomlin is still being held in high regard by anyone...


Or that people include what he did those first four years - with mostly Cowher players and coaches - is somehow more indicative than the past 8. As the team has become more his, the team has become less successful. I think that's a completely accurate statement.

If Tomlin takes over your typical struggling/failing team, what the hell would he have to show for it? He's not been able to rebuild his defense, and he's won just 3 playoff games in 8 years.

Missed the playoffs 3 times in the last 8 years. These are not numbers that suggest above average with a HOF QB. In that same 8 years, Mike McCarthy missed the playoffs twice, and won 5 games. He got fired. In that same 8 years, Harbaugh has missed the playoffs four times, and won a SB.....he was nearly fired this year.

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Last edited by Kodiak on Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:17 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Name the amazing talent on defense. They've assembled some nice talent on O since the D got old, but overall it's not like they have greatly underperformed their talent level.

Could they have been better? Yes. Could things have been optimized for more wins? Yes. Is it ultimately the HC's fault when the previously unstoppable PK costs you multiple games? Of course it is.

I'm only saying that the scoreboard tells a different tale: Tomlin has had the second-best results in the Brady era. Has the second most wins, only Coughlin & Fox have as many SB appearances, and only Coughlin more SB wins.


The team from 2007-2011 had amazing talent on defense and Ben was in his prime to make an offense with not great talent go just enough to win.

Not surprising that they had a .688 winning percentage, 2 AFCCG appearances, 2 Super Bowls, and one Lombardi and 4 playoff appearances in 5 years.

But when that defense was done, they had only a .643 WP, only 4 playoff appearances in 7 years, one AFCCG and no Super Bowls. And only three lackluster playoff wins to show for that.

Doesn’t look so stellar when you break it up between Cowher/LeBeau-built defense and Tomlin/Butler built defense, now does it?


Seriously.

I mean we've spent how many 1st and 2nd round picks on defense over the past 10 years? And yet here we are talking how talentless the defense is? That's not exactly an argument for Tomlin, now is it?


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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:26 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
I fear we are heading toward a potted plant debate!


Indisputably more successful when he WAS a potted plant!

And Tomlin can't stop "self-mutilating". He actively makes choices that sabotage and sub-optimize his chance of winning, from "saving" a two-point play to not putting your HOF QB back into the game. It's like he doesn't fully grasp the importance of every game and instead relies on "flipping the switch" when they get backed against the wall.

I mean, there's dumb shit other mediocre coaches do that lose games. And Tomlin has that in spades, too. But his stupid gambles with winnable games for potential future wins is other-level dumb.

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:48 pm 
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Quote:
we've spent how many 1st and 2nd round picks on defense over the past 10 years? And yet here we are talking how talentless the defense is? That's not exactly an argument for Tomlin, now is it?


Exactly.

What some try to spin into an excuse for Tomlin is in reality an indictment against him.

A defensive minded coach can’t possibly get “unlucky” in the draft as often as he does.

The man has been given the resources. He simply stinks at picking D talent


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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:00 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Havoc wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
No you're not calling AB a JAG and you are good to remind me of that so that this does not end up a debate about a straw man.

I do not deny that a catch radius is important, but my point of sticking a bunch of question and exclamations after "catch radius" is to remind us that AB without a super big catch radius nonetheless pulls in insane catches. The guy is a human highlight reel! He seems to do just fine without a catch radius.

His talent is NOT the reason the offense has underperformed. I just don't see it. His ego, maybe.

Honest question: who would you take in his prime, AB or Fitz?


AB has fantastic hand eye coordination. There have always been guys in the league with fantastic hand eye coordination. Now you might think I'm downplaying AB's hand eye coordination.

Fitzgerald.

And I'll remind everyone that my position is that AB is a HOFer and he earned that.


"There have always been guys in the league with fantastic hand eye coordination."

Like AB?

If so, then why does AB dominate so much?

I know some want to say Ben is the reason, but that does not work because none of Ben's other receivers have played like AB has as consistently as AB has.

I do think you are under appreciating ABs talents.


Quote:
Like AB?


Good grief, man. Yes.

There have always been guys in every sport at least since I've been watching with elite hand eye coordination and elite body control.

What was different about AB, was the sick quickness, the sick stop and turn on the dime, the sick precision route running. He's in rare air there no doubt, but there have always been wrs in the league gifted in ways AB was not.

My position on AB is, as great as he was in his prime, he was a little overrated.

Could AB have been part of the #1 scoring offense in the league? From a talent standpoint yes, but from a mind standpoint it does not appear to be the case. That's why he wants out now. Fichtner is trying to build a more efficient, higher scoring offense and spread the ball around more and AB is having none of that.

That's why I brought up nba players who wow fans in the rs but don't have rings. The 3 players I listed might have had or might have the talent to be on a championship level team but didn't or don't have the brains to play the role required of them on a team at that level, they all wanted or want to dominate the ball more than their skillset will allow on a team at that level. And if they played the role necessary on a title team, their numbers would not look the same, they would not have as many opportunities to wow fans since they wouldn't have the ball in their hands as much.

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Up by 4, pull the plug. Fire Mike Tomlin.


Last edited by Havoc on Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:09 pm 
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I believe my claim was “generational” not “elite.”

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Orangesteel wrote:
We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:21 pm 
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Excellent hand eye coordination is nothing uncommon, you can see it on playgrounds and organized levels around the country among most ages in all 3 major sports. Those kids and adults don't have the ability to get separation on an nfl field.

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Up by 4, pull the plug. Fire Mike Tomlin.


Last edited by Havoc on Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:21 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Name the amazing talent on defense. They've assembled some nice talent on O since the D got old, but overall it's not like they have greatly underperformed their talent level.

Could they have been better? Yes. Could things have been optimized for more wins? Yes. Is it ultimately the HC's fault when the previously unstoppable PK costs you multiple games? Of course it is.

I'm only saying that the scoreboard tells a different tale: Tomlin has had the second-best results in the Brady era. Has the second most wins, only Coughlin & Fox have as many SB appearances, and only Coughlin more SB wins.


The team from 2007-2011 had amazing talent on defense and Ben was in his prime to make an offense with not great talent go just enough to win.

Not surprising that they had a .688 winning percentage, 2 AFCCG appearances, 2 Super Bowls, and one Lombardi and 4 playoff appearances in 5 years.

But when that defense was done, they had only a .643 WP, only 4 playoff appearances in 7 years, one AFCCG and no Super Bowls. And only three lackluster playoff wins to show for that.

Doesn’t look so stellar when you break it up between Cowher/LeBeau-built defense and Tomlin/Butler built defense, now does it?

Hello!!! Making my point for me: Two trips to the Super Bowl, one Lombardi––who did better in a 5 year period with or without a HOF QB and a talented team? Hell, NOBODY. Maybe you can make a case for Coughlin, but those teams made great playoff runs; weren't necessarily great teams. They matched up great with NE, too.

Who gives a shit vis a vis this argument what happens when you "take away his long runs"? You would be THE FIRST to destroy the argument of "take away his big plays and he sucks" argument.

Now, would they be better off with a fresh voice? New ideas? Different argument. Knocking his track record when it's second during the era of the GOAT HC and GOAT QB... making yourself look silly.

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:26 pm 
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We have a good idea on how average AB becomes when Ben is not the qb. He disappeared when Micheal Vick was the quarterback. Even under Landry Jones, AB was just average. He needs Ben's accuracy, strong arm and anticipation to be successful. He's not going to find that with other QB's ..ie....the 'chemistry' he developed with Ben over last 8 years. He's overrated big time without Ben throwing to him.


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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:30 pm 
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Tiggs wrote:
We have a good idea on how average AB becomes when Ben is not the qb. He disappeared when Micheal Vick was the quarterback. Even under Landry Jones, AB was just average. He needs Ben's accuracy, strong arm and anticipation to be successful. He's not going to find that with other QB's ..ie....the 'chemistry' he developed with Ben over last 8 years. He's overrated big time without Ben throwing to him.

He has a chance to continue his success:
1. go to a team that schemes him open with better offense
2. play with another great QB: Brady, Wilson, Luck, Rodgers
3. stay in Pgh and humble himself until his career is over or he grows up, whichever comes sooner

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:40 pm 
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Tiggs wrote:
We have a good idea on how average AB becomes when Ben is not the qb. He disappeared when Micheal Vick was the quarterback. Even under Landry Jones, AB was just average. He needs Ben's accuracy, strong arm and anticipation to be successful. He's not going to find that with other QB's ..ie....the 'chemistry' he developed with Ben over last 8 years. He's overrated big time without Ben throwing to him.


Lol, everyone sucked with the corpse of Michael Vick. Come on, man. And Jones is not was not a starting QB.

Weird how no receiver Ben paired with previously comes close to what AB is.

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We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:22 am 
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over/under on AB with someone other than Ben throwing him the ball: 80 catches, 1000 yards.

I'll take the under on both. Although, it may be interesting to see him in a better designed offense

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:09 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
Lol, everyone sucked with the corpse of Michael Vick. Come on, man. And Jones is not was not a starting QB.

Weird how no receiver Ben paired with previously comes close to what AB is.


Funny about that, just give Ben and JuJu time and you will see JuJu shitting all over what Brown has done previously.

Don't believe me??

Look at what Brown did his first two years in the NFL with Ben throwing him the ball.

85 catches for 1,275 yards and 2 TDs. Brown only had 3 100+ yards games those first two seasons. Brown had a mediocre 59.4% catch percentage. Was targeted 143 times those first two seasons and had 85 catches.

Now look at what Ben did with JuJu in his first two seasons. 169 catches for 2,343 yards and 14 TDs. JuJu had 11 100+ yards games. JuJu had a very good 69% catch percentage. He was targeted 245 times and had 169 catches. Brown did not get to 169 catches and 2,343 yards until the 3rd game of his 4th NFL season. Let that sink in for a minute. Also, it took Brown all the way to the 6th game of his 5th NFL season to amass eleven 100+ yard games. JuJu has already done that in just 2 NFL seasons. Again, let that sink in. JuJu is on a historic pace for a Steeler WR that no other player has ever done, not Hines Ward, not Antonio Brown, NOBODY.

Imagine what Ben can do with JuJu over the next 2, 3, 4 seasons. JuJu will easily put up the numbers that Brown has and the offense will be more effective because Ben won't be throwing as many interceptions like he has when targeting Brown.

AB was very good, but I too think he was over-rated. You look at what Ben has done with JuJu the past two seasons and it proves it to me, you give him a talented Wr and he will make him look and play like a HOFer.

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:31 am 
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Defenses have to scheme/gameplan around Brown more than Smith-Schuster. Don't you think they both have a lot to do with each others success? With Brown on one side drawing double, sometimes triple coverage, Smith-Schuster [usually] having one on one coverage which he is able to beat much of the time. Brown had exactly who on the other side drawing double and sometimes triple coverage? Not trying to take anything away from Smith-Schuster [my most favorite player at this point] just pointing out how they've helped each other become more successful as a team. I agree Smith-Schuster will become a better skill player as he grows too. If defenses aren't having to scheme around Brown and Smith-Schuster starts drawing double coverage how does this affect his success/stats? Who's playing on the other side of Smith-Schuster to draw coverage?

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:52 am 
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Steelafan77, to me I don't worry about any of that. It will work itself out.

When Brown had his first 1,000 yard season in 2011, it was Mike Wallace who led the team in catches, yards and TD catches. There was also Hines Ward and Heath Miller still on the team. They didn't help create Brown's success???

JuJu in just his 2nd season had over 100 catches and 1,400+ yards.

Brown it took him until his 4th season to do that, he had 110 catches for 1,499 yards. But we also had Manny Sanders and Cotchery combine for 113 catches that season for almost 1,150 yards and 16 TDs, double of what Brown managed (8).

So, didn't Sanders and Cotchery help create Brown's success??

I am not concerned about Brown being traded because other WRs will step up, Colbert will draft and bring in more talent. Ben has many weapons to lean on besides, Vance McDonald can become more deadly, Jaylin Samuels has the look of a special pass catcher/3rd down back.

JuJu has a complete toolset, there is no limit to what he can do. He is a DeAndre Hopkins type of WR where people get hung up on well he is not this, or not that, not fast enough, blah, blah, blah, and yet you look at what JuJu has done, it doesn't phase him just like Hopkins.

This may be a controversial opinion but I happen to think that JuJu opened things up for Brown the past two years. For all of this talk about how Brown frees up things for JuJu, I think teams were just as concerned about JuJu. I also think that JuJu and the way he was moved around and lined up, playing in the slot, etc, helped to scheme things open for Brown, particularly for touchdowns. Funny how Brown was able to set a career high this past season in touchdown catches with fewer catches overall. The diversification of the offense, spreading the ball around was a big part of that, it wasn't just because Brown was that damn good.

But that obviously goes against the narrative that Brown is otherworldly, nobody works harder, nobody has his hand eye coordination, or his quickness, yada, yada, yada... :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:05 am 
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Scunge, I look forward very much to JuJu being a first ballot lock for the hall of fame who shits all over what AB has done with Ben. It will be wonderful to watch JuJu become one of the top 10 receivers ever to play the game due to him playing with Ben.

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We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:07 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
Scunge, I look forward very much to JuJu being a first ballot lock for the hall of fame who shits all over what AB has done with Ben. It will be wonderful to watch JuJu become one of the top 10 receivers ever to play the game due to him playing with Ben.


I look even more forward to JuJu being a team player who doesn't freak out and pout if he isn't targeted enough, because stats are more important to him than wins.

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:08 am 
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KC wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Scunge, I look forward very much to JuJu being a first ballot lock for the hall of fame who shits all over what AB has done with Ben. It will be wonderful to watch JuJu become one of the top 10 receivers ever to play the game due to him playing with Ben.


I look even more forward to JuJu being a team player who doesn't freak out and pout if he isn't targeted enough, because stats are more important to him than wins.


Agree.

But this is what really pisses me off about AB: he ALREADY has the stats. He has ALREADY cemented himself as one of the all time great receivers (none of you yokels are convincing me otherwise). Why can't he pull his head out of his ass and just get with the distribution program and help the team get a damn ring.

One thing is for certain: if we could put Larry Fitzgerald's character in ABs body, I'd like our SB chances a whole lot more.

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We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:31 am 
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I heard AB didn't show to court for his reckless driving charge?

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:59 am 
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Donnie Brasco wrote:
I heard AB didn't show to court for his reckless driving charge?


He did not. I'm not sure how big of a deal that is, though. Isn't that essentially just admitting guilt, which would have likely happened anyways?

I don't think it's something they're going to issue a bench warrant or anything for. Or is it with reckless driving?


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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:19 pm 
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Louis Lipps Service wrote:
Donnie Brasco wrote:
I heard AB didn't show to court for his reckless driving charge?


He did not. I'm not sure how big of a deal that is, though. Isn't that essentially just admitting guilt, which would have likely happened anyways?

I don't think it's something they're going to issue a bench warrant or anything for. Or is it with reckless driving?

Is this a situation where he can just send his attorney to enter a plea?

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:44 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
KC wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Scunge, I look forward very much to JuJu being a first ballot lock for the hall of fame who shits all over what AB has done with Ben. It will be wonderful to watch JuJu become one of the top 10 receivers ever to play the game due to him playing with Ben.


I look even more forward to JuJu being a team player who doesn't freak out and pout if he isn't targeted enough, because stats are more important to him than wins.


Agree.

But this is what really pisses me off about AB: he ALREADY has the stats. He has ALREADY cemented himself as one of the all time great receivers (none of you yokels are convincing me otherwise). Why can't he pull his head out of his ass and just get with the distribution program and help the team get a damn ring.

One thing is for certain: if we could put Larry Fitzgerald's character in ABs body, I'd like our SB chances a whole lot more.


It's important to put a PS stamp on rs "success". PS is like being in a higher league. But again I question ABs rs success in terms of what did it lead to in terms of team success on offense. There is an odd perception out there that our offense was better than it really was with Ben/AB/Bell

Like I said, I'm tired of pseudo greatness on offense.

And I'll take Fitzgerald over AB in every way as I already stated.

AB reminds me of Stephan Curry in the NBA. Curry has an all time great skillset yet he is not the most gifted player on that team and if they didn't have Durant they might not have more than 1 ring... the ring pre Durant where Curry wasn't even good enough to get finals MVP... that award went to a role player.

Both Curry and Durant are all time great scorers. The difference between the two is Durant is 6'9" to Curry's 6'3"

There is a rule in sports, if all else is equal go with the bigger guy.

Having said that, rules changes in both the NFL and the NBA are opening things up more for the small players so that gap is less than it used to be. AB came along at the perfect time for his skillset in NFL history and there is nothing wrong with that.

Magic Johnson is the greatest point guard to ever play the nba game in part because he was 6'9". His size was the difference between him and all the other great pg field generals. If Magic were playing today, he would be the best PG in the league.

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Up by 4, pull the plug. Fire Mike Tomlin.


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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:42 pm 
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Dickhead is saying goodbye he was found guilty in his traffic issue today too

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Thank you SteelerNation for a big 9 years...time to move on and forward..........#NewDemands


Send him away, i hope he finds his maker soon.

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