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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:51 pm 
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I worked with a guy that had a senior position. He got into arguments with the VP and office manager and decided that the only way for him to be released from his contract was to be fired - In order to receive compensation for the rest of the contract year. So he tried to get fired. He didn't shower for weeks, and smelled like a homeless person while acting like a dick.

He was released, and got all the financial benefits for the contract.

AB doesn't want to be in PGH unless he's the center of the offense and the franchise player. I think he wants to be traded, and make it look like the steelers FO shafted him. Bell, Harrison, and now AB have serious issues with the steelers organization. Or Tomlin. Or both.

Who was the WR coach when AB was drafted? Was it Mann? Coates, MB, AB. All have exceptional talent, but all are either stupid, arrogant, dickheads, or all three.

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:06 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
I worked with a guy that had a senior position. He got into arguments with the VP and office manager and decided that the only way for him to be released from his contract was to be fired - In order to receive compensation for the rest of the contract year. So he tried to get fired. He didn't shower for weeks, and smelled like a homeless person while acting like a dick.

He was released, and got all the financial benefits for the contract.

AB doesn't want to be in PGH unless he's the center of the offense and the franchise player. I think he wants to be traded, and make it look like the steelers FO shafted him. Bell, Harrison, and now AB have serious issues with the steelers organization. Or Tomlin. Or both.

Who was the WR coach when AB was drafted? Was it Mann? Coates, MB, AB. All have exceptional talent, but all are either stupid, arrogant, dickheads, or all three.


They spent a 6th round choice on AB. That is fine in the risk-reward area. His talent was outweighing his narcissistic issues. I think players are pissed that Ben is getting a break and they are not. Except for AB who seemed to get all the breaks and is still insane.

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:24 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Fair enough, but ABs talent is still first ballot worthy.

And notice you did not disagree that it is not ABs fault he has not had more chances to shine in the post season and that when he has been there, he's done pretty damn well.

Rice being the best WR of all friggin' time is a not a reason to down-play AB's skills or value.

Ben is not the best QB of all time nor are his post season numbers the best of all time, but I do not see you making posts saying so and so shits all over Ben R. If we're doing GOAT PS rankings, I bet Ben does not even crack top 10. Hell, I suspect Bradshaw in PS DOES shit all over Ben R. And yet I do not see you posting that so and so shits all over Ben R.

The reason, I suspect, is that currently Ben R. seems not to have lost his mind. Unlike AB. Who has decided to dye his mustache, be/act high on camera, shove women, threaten people physically, quit on the team, throw things off balconies, etc.


We are having a conversation about AB. He is the knucklehead in the news of his own making. Do you want to start a thread on Ben and his historical place in the franchise and the league?

I have posted multiple times on this site where I rank Bradshaw compared to Ben including this past off season (before the 2018 season).

AB is a HOFer and he earned that.

I don't see the media overrating Ben.

I see media and fans overrating AB in the age of stat whore.

AB reminds me of guys in the nba like Iverson, Westbrook, and Harden. Zero rings between the 3 and unless the Warriors have injuries the zero will remain intact.

I watch sports, evaluate players, with championship level play in mind. I watch their play, look at their numbers, and think about what their game and their numbers would look like on a championship level team. Many arguments for AB revolve around some rs stats while ignoring other rs stats.

AB looks to me like a guy who plays football for the rs stat whores. I don't think AB cares that much about Lombardis. Time for him to go.

There is a reason a guy is quick... he is small. Yes, that quickness poses problems for opponents, and the fact he is small poses problems for your own team.

I can say all that while at the same time acknowledge AB is a HOFer and of his own making. Players can be both great and overrated. That's my position on AB.

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:04 pm 
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Havoc wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Fair enough, but ABs talent is still first ballot worthy.

And notice you did not disagree that it is not ABs fault he has not had more chances to shine in the post season and that when he has been there, he's done pretty damn well.

Rice being the best WR of all friggin' time is a not a reason to down-play AB's skills or value.

Ben is not the best QB of all time nor are his post season numbers the best of all time, but I do not see you making posts saying so and so shits all over Ben R. If we're doing GOAT PS rankings, I bet Ben does not even crack top 10. Hell, I suspect Bradshaw in PS DOES shit all over Ben R. And yet I do not see you posting that so and so shits all over Ben R.

The reason, I suspect, is that currently Ben R. seems not to have lost his mind. Unlike AB. Who has decided to dye his mustache, be/act high on camera, shove women, threaten people physically, quit on the team, throw things off balconies, etc.


We are having a conversation about AB. He is the knucklehead in the news of his own making. Do you want to start a thread on Ben and his historical place in the franchise and the league?

I have posted multiple times on this site where I rank Bradshaw compared to Ben including this past off season (before the 2018 season).

AB is a HOFer and he earned that.

I don't see the media overrating Ben.

I see media and fans overrating AB in the age of stat whore.

AB reminds me of guys in the nba like Iverson, Westbrook, and Harden. Zero rings between the 3 and unless the Warriors have injuries the zero will remain intact.

I watch sports, evaluate players, with championship level play in mind. I watch their play, look at their numbers, and think about what their game and their numbers would look like on a championship level team. Many arguments for AB revolve around some rs stats while ignoring other rs stats.

AB looks to me like a guy who plays football for the rs stat whores. I don't think AB cares that much about Lombardis. Time for him to go.

There is a reason a guy is quick... he is small. Yes, that quickness poses problems for opponents, and the fact he is small poses problems for your own team.

I can say all that while at the same time acknowledge AB is a HOFer and of his own making. Players can be both great and overrated. That's my position on AB.


Players change over time when their egos get in the way.

Happened with Ward too.

I remember discussing it here several years ago, when the Steelers were on a nice winning streak and Ben had formed a nice connection with Plaxico Burress.

Burress had several big games and again, the Steelers were in the midst of a very nice winning streak.

Hines Ward comes out in the media and starts bitching about how many balls he's seeing.

It was un-fucking-believable, DURING A GODDAMN WINNING STREAK this fucking asshole is bitching he's not catching enough balls.

Now it's Antonio Brown's turn. As you said, Brown is no longer about winning championships. I believe when he was younger and hungrier, Brown probably cared about winning more than what his stats looked like when the game was over.

Not anymore. AB is all about AB. He couldn't give a flying fuck about winning or about being a Pittsburgh Steeler.

Fuck him up the ass with a razor studded dildo.

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:21 am 
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Havoc wrote:
I can say all that while at the same time acknowledge AB is a HOFer and of his own making. Players can be both great and overrated. That's my position on AB.


My point is that evaluating players primarily on post season success alone can be misleading.

A modus tollens argument to illustrate my concern.

If Ben is evaluated primarily on post season play, then Ben is overrated and very good but not great.
But Ben is great.
Therefore, the evaluation seems flawed.

But perhaps my premises are not sound.

I agree that AB has worn out his welcome. I disagree that lack of post-season glory is proof that he is overrated. But am I disagreeing with a point you are actually endorsing?

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:25 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Havoc wrote:
I can say all that while at the same time acknowledge AB is a HOFer and of his own making. Players can be both great and overrated. That's my position on AB.


My point is that evaluating players primarily on post season success alone can be misleading.

A modus tollens argument to illustrate my concern.

If Ben is evaluated primarily on post season play, then Ben is overrated and very good but not great.
But Ben is great.
Therefore, the evaluation seems flawed.

But perhaps my premises are not sound.

I agree that AB has worn out his welcome. I disagree that lack of post-season glory is proof that he is overrated. But am I disagreeing with a point you are actually endorsing?


On Ben...

Ben has never been the QB of the #1 scoring offense in the league.
Ben has never led the league in TD throws.
Ben has never been league MVP

There is a mental block in Steelers Nation against having the #1 scoring offense in the league it appears to me. And this is odd, since we had all of what I listed with Bradshaw in the late 70's.

Bradshaw was QB of the #1 scoring offense in the league.
Bradshaw led the league in TD throws.
Bradshaw was league MVP
Bradshaw was QB of an offense that averaged 30+ ppg in back to back SB winning ps runs.
Bradshaw outplayed Staubach in 2 SBs.
Bradshaw has 4 rings.

All of this matters. I rank Bradshaw ahead of Ben. It's not too late for Ben to change my mind, but at some point he has to do it.

No Ben, no Lombardi #5. No Ben, no Lombardi #6. He will always be one of my all time favorite Steelers because of this. He will always be one of the most important players in the history of this franchise because of this.

Beyond that, we keep talking about what Ben could have done if the team was built with offense in mind. At some point, you have to do it.

Tomlin is an albatross to truly great offense. I want Ben to pull a 2009 Favre. He is the one playing the game. He is the one with his legacy at stake as a player.

I am tired of the psuedo greatness on offense. The Ben to AB combo at it's peak was overrated. It did not produce the #1 scoring offense in the league. It did not produce the #2 scoring offense in the league. It did not produce a juggernaut 30+ ppg ps run leading to a SB.

Many argue for AB based on some of his rs numbers while ignoring others when he dominated between the 20s. It's volume numbers (to a degree). All that between the 20s domination did not translate equally to TDs. Show me numbers that contributed to the #1 scoring offense in the league. Show me numbers that contributed to a juggernaut ps offense leading to a SB.

I already mentioned ABs skillset which although great is not ideal and a little overrated. There are wrs in the league making plays AB cannot make due to a much larger catch radius. It matters.

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:47 pm 
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Lit, you don't judge JUST on post-season success, but success without it means little.

Also, winning in the post-season is more important than any other stat.

I think Ben has played some of his best *winning* football in the postseason, especially considering the strength of competition he faced. He's also had a few disappointing games. But that's everyone who's ever played, including Brady. Hell, Brady has 10 postseason losses, and I wonder if ANY of them were to a clearly superior team. Maybe last Super Bowl. Maybe one of those ones vs Indy.

I think Ben is clearly a Top 10 QB of all-time. Bradshaw has an argument for top 3, easily top 5. Eras are different and surrounding talent favored Bradshaw, for sure. To me best 5 all time are (in some order) Brady, Bradshaw, Montana, Unitas, Graham/Luckman.

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:08 pm 
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While I don't want PIT to give him away like they did with Santonio, I'm not sure how he can be a Steeler next year.

To hear the comments from several players was quite shocking, and sounds like there's a lot more, and lot deeper than just going AWOL one time. My take was, for a number of players, that was kind of the last straw. In which case, there's really no way he can come back.

Also a bushleague move to have paid him for that game. I don't understand that, and it also upset other players. It's not surprising, but how could Tomlin have been that stupid?

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:22 pm 
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"Also a bushleague move to have paid him for that game. I don't understand that, and it also upset other players. It's not surprising, but how could Tomlin have been that stupid?"

If there's one thing I can be 110% certain of in this fiasco, it's that Tomlin isn't the one making decisions about whether AB got paid for week 17.

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:26 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
"Also a bushleague move to have paid him for that game. I don't understand that, and it also upset other players. It's not surprising, but how could Tomlin have been that stupid?"

If there's one thing I can be 110% certain of in this fiasco, it's that Tomlin isn't the one making decisions about whether AB got paid for week 17.


Guarantee EMR did it to avoid having to deal with the union.

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:20 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Lit, you don't judge JUST on post-season success, but success without it means little.

Also, winning in the post-season is more important than any other stat.

I think Ben has played some of his best *winning* football in the postseason, especially considering the strength of competition he faced. He's also had a few disappointing games. But that's everyone who's ever played, including Brady. Hell, Brady has 10 postseason losses, and I wonder if ANY of them were to a clearly superior team. Maybe last Super Bowl. Maybe one of those ones vs Indy.

I think Ben is clearly a Top 10 QB of all-time. Bradshaw has an argument for top 3, easily top 5. Eras are different and surrounding talent favored Bradshaw, for sure. To me best 5 all time are (in some order) Brady, Bradshaw, Montana, Unitas, Graham/Luckman.


I think Ben may be top 10 all time, which is precisely why I posted my reservations about how much to weigh post-season success and performance.

And I do not blame AB for not having a lot of post season chances. It's a team sport. Jerry Rice is the best receiver of all time and was elite in the playoffs. That does not make AB overrated. He was a beast in the Jax play off loss.

AB has lost his mind, not his skills. And it's his antics and attitude that are problem, not his ability.

Havoc and I started off agreeing because I posted that AB just needs a ring. He doesn't need any more stats. He's proved he's one of the best all time. Forget the me first BS!

But I'm convinced people are downplaying his skills because he turned into a giant douche bag. Same with Bell.

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:32 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Lit, you don't judge JUST on post-season success, but success without it means little.

Also, winning in the post-season is more important than any other stat.

I think Ben has played some of his best *winning* football in the postseason, especially considering the strength of competition he faced. He's also had a few disappointing games. But that's everyone who's ever played, including Brady. Hell, Brady has 10 postseason losses, and I wonder if ANY of them were to a clearly superior team. Maybe last Super Bowl. Maybe one of those ones vs Indy.

I think Ben is clearly a Top 10 QB of all-time. Bradshaw has an argument for top 3, easily top 5. Eras are different and surrounding talent favored Bradshaw, for sure. To me best 5 all time are (in some order) Brady, Bradshaw, Montana, Unitas, Graham/Luckman.


I think Ben may be top 10 all time, which is precisely why I posted my reservations about how much to weigh post-season success and performance.

And I do not blame AB for not having a lot of post season chances. It's a team sport. Jerry Rice is the best receiver of all time and was elite in the playoffs. That does not make AB overrated. He was a beast in the Jax play off loss.

AB has lost his mind, not his skills. And it's his antics and attitude that are problem, not his ability.

Havoc and I started off agreeing because I posted that AB just needs a ring. He doesn't need any more stats. He's proved he's one of the best all time. Forget the me first BS!

But I'm convinced people are downplaying his skills because he turned into a giant douche bag. Same with Bell.


Agreed with just about all of this.

I was pretty young when Rice was in his prime, so my analysis might be a bit skewed. But when I watch AB and compare him with my recollection of Rice, I see a ton of similarities. Rice was a little taller, but they seemed to have very similar skill sets. Precise route runners who worked their asses off and had some of the best hands and ball skills in the history of the game. Not a ton of straight line speed but were both shifty and knew what to do when the ball was in their hands. Were both somehow still elite deep threats despite that lack of top end speed due to other-world level ball skills and body control.

And, of course, neither was/is a particularly good teammate, although AB has certainly gone far and beyond Rice in that category.

Despite the lack of SB rings, I have no problem putting AB in Rice's category. I mean, he has a long way to go in the longevity department before he can enter the conversation for best career. But I don't think there's a ton of difference in their level of dominance in their primes.

I think if you put AB on those same 49ers teams with Montana/Young, Taylor, Craig, that offensive lines, and those defenses, you get very similar results.


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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:02 pm 
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Louis Lipps Service wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Lit, you don't judge JUST on post-season success, but success without it means little.

Also, winning in the post-season is more important than any other stat.

I think Ben has played some of his best *winning* football in the postseason, especially considering the strength of competition he faced. He's also had a few disappointing games. But that's everyone who's ever played, including Brady. Hell, Brady has 10 postseason losses, and I wonder if ANY of them were to a clearly superior team. Maybe last Super Bowl. Maybe one of those ones vs Indy.

I think Ben is clearly a Top 10 QB of all-time. Bradshaw has an argument for top 3, easily top 5. Eras are different and surrounding talent favored Bradshaw, for sure. To me best 5 all time are (in some order) Brady, Bradshaw, Montana, Unitas, Graham/Luckman.


I think Ben may be top 10 all time, which is precisely why I posted my reservations about how much to weigh post-season success and performance.

And I do not blame AB for not having a lot of post season chances. It's a team sport. Jerry Rice is the best receiver of all time and was elite in the playoffs. That does not make AB overrated. He was a beast in the Jax play off loss.

AB has lost his mind, not his skills. And it's his antics and attitude that are problem, not his ability.

Havoc and I started off agreeing because I posted that AB just needs a ring. He doesn't need any more stats. He's proved he's one of the best all time. Forget the me first BS!

But I'm convinced people are downplaying his skills because he turned into a giant douche bag. Same with Bell.


Agreed with just about all of this.

I was pretty young when Rice was in his prime, so my analysis might be a bit skewed. But when I watch AB and compare him with my recollection of Rice, I see a ton of similarities. Rice was a little taller, but they seemed to have very similar skill sets. Precise route runners who worked their asses off and had some of the best hands and ball skills in the history of the game. Not a ton of straight line speed but were both shifty and knew what to do when the ball was in their hands. Were both somehow still elite deep threats despite that lack of top end speed due to other-world level ball skills and body control.

And, of course, neither was/is a particularly good teammate, although AB has certainly gone far and beyond Rice in that category.

Despite the lack of SB rings, I have no problem putting AB in Rice's category. I mean, he has a long way to go in the longevity department before he can enter the conversation for best career. But I don't think there's a ton of difference in their level of dominance in their primes.

I think if you put AB on those same 49ers teams with Montana/Young, Taylor, Craig, that offensive lines, and those defenses, you get very similar results.

Don’t forget the head coach...
I could not agree more regarding AB. Rank him where you want, but for me his greatness doesn’t just show in stats or W/Ls. We get the chance to watch this guy play...don’t tell me that the things he does on the field don’t scream greatness. How many times have we said or thought “jeezus...how the fuck did he catch that?” Every time this guy steps on a football field, he’s the best player out there, and it’s not even close. He’s one of the best to ever play the game...period. That’s what makes all this bullshit so disappointing. I believe there is a ring out there for AB...but that only becomes reality with Ben Roethlisberger and the Pittsburgh Steelers. Unfortunately...

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:03 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
But I'm convinced people are downplaying his skills because he turned into a giant douche bag. Same with Bell.


I have talked about AB's catch radius in the past. This is not something new. I have stated in the past there are wide receivers in the league making plays AB cannot make due to a significantly larger catch radius. There always have been. It matters.

If you are comparing and ranking players, yes of course the post season matters. Those were games that were played at a higher level of competition and with more at stake than the rs. This has always been my position on sports in general on this board and I have posted on this since I first joined the board.

The national media should be destroying AB for wanting out of Pittsburgh but instead in the age of rs stat whore and in the age of A-G-E-N-D-A... they are not. And not only that, they are cherry picking rs stats in their arguments for AB.

Like I said, I'm tired of pseudo great offense which AB has been a part of.

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:17 pm 
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We've watched the guy play here. All his games. Catch radius?!?!?!

We have seen AB make so many WTF of catches that we've lost count. His body control and hands are generational. He makes catches players with a bigger catch radius do not come down with.

To quote Jobus

Jobus Rum wrote:
How many times have we said or thought “jeezus...how the fuck did he catch that?”


The argument that the offense has underachieved with AB does not mean it is due to ABs talent. Good lord. Offensive scheme and game planning is on coaching. And if AB has turned into a giant, unstable, me-first dick head, he is hurting the offense. But that does not mean he is less talented. So pointing to the offense underperforming does not make the case you wish it to.

I guess we have to agree to disagree. I think you're out to lunch on this one.

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:32 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
We've watched the guy play here. All his games. Catch radius?!?!?!

We have seen AB make so many WTF of catches that we've lost count. His body control and hands are generational. He makes catches players with a bigger catch radius do not come down with.

To quote Jobus

Jobus Rum wrote:
How many times have we said or thought “jeezus...how the fuck did he catch that?”


The argument that the offense has underachieved with AB does not mean it is due to ABs talent. Good lord. Offensive scheme and game planning is on coaching. And if AB has turned into a giant, unstable, me-first dick head, he is hurting the offense. But that does not mean he is less talented. So pointing to the offense underperforming does not make the case you wish it to.

I guess we have to agree to disagree. I think you're out to lunch on this one.


I have always said AB is a great player. I have always said AB earned HOF status.

Before the 2018 season the board was discussing this. I said then that I might construct an offense with the RZ in mind because it's so important. I talked about the 6'3" Jordy Nelson as a physical and gifted RZ target.

Of course catch radius is important. Did you see what the more physical and more vertically gifted 6'3" Larry Fitzgerald did for his team in their 2008 ps run?

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Up by 4, pull the plug. Fire Mike Tomlin.


Last edited by Havoc on Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:35 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
"Also a bushleague move to have paid him for that game. I don't understand that, and it also upset other players. It's not surprising, but how could Tomlin have been that stupid?"

If there's one thing I can be 110% certain of in this fiasco, it's that Tomlin isn't the one making decisions about whether AB got paid for week 17.


Guarantee EMR did it to avoid having to deal with the union.


What leg would the union or AB have to stand on?

If Art is that afraid of the Union when he was well within his power to suspend and doc a game check them he is more feckless and lacking cajones than already suspected.

Not saying you are saying this is the case. Realize you are just speculating here Jeemie


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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:38 pm 
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Havoc wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
We've watched the guy play here. All his games. Catch radius?!?!?!

We have seen AB make so many WTF of catches that we've lost count. His body control and hands are generational. He makes catches players with a bigger catch radius do not come down with.

To quote Jobus

Jobus Rum wrote:
How many times have we said or thought “jeezus...how the fuck did he catch that?”


The argument that the offense has underachieved with AB does not mean it is due to ABs talent. Good lord. Offensive scheme and game planning is on coaching. And if AB has turned into a giant, unstable, me-first dick head, he is hurting the offense. But that does not mean he is less talented. So pointing to the offense underperforming does not make the case you wish it to.

I guess we have to agree to disagree. I think you're out to lunch on this one.


I have always said AB is a great player. I have always said AB earned HOF status. You act like I'm calling him a JAG or saying he isn't a HOFer.

Before the 2018 season the board was discussing this. I said then that I might construct an offense with the RZ in mind because it's so important. I talked about Jordy Nelson as a physical and gifted RZ target.

Of course catch radius is important. Did you see what the more physical and more vertically gifted 6'3" Larry Fitzgerald did for his team in their 2008 ps run?


No you're not calling AB a JAG and you are good to remind me of that so that this does not end up a debate about a straw man.

I do not deny that a catch radius is important, but my point of sticking a bunch of question and exclamations after "catch radius" is to remind us that AB without a super big catch radius nonetheless pulls in insane catches. The guy is a human highlight reel! He seems to do just fine without a catch radius.

His talent is NOT the reason the offense has underperformed. I just don't see it. His ego, maybe.

Honest question: who would you take in his prime, AB or Fitz?

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:39 pm 
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Sorry, but you can elaborate your dissatisfactions with Tomlin's flaws (of which many are legit complaints or areas that could/should improve), but let's face it... no one else has done better in the Tom Brady era, other than Belichick.

look at the coaches with All-Pro or HOF level QBs in Brady era:

Tomlin & Ben... 115-58-1, 4 years of 12-4 or better, 8-7 postseason, 2 SB trips, 1 SB win, 0-1 vs NE in postseason
Phil Rivers and anyone... 118-90-0, 5-6 in playoffs, no SB, 0-3 vs NE
Brees/Payton... 125-80-0, 8-6 in post-season, 1 SB trip, 1 SB win
Peyton Manning and Dungy... 85-27-0, 9-9, 2 SB appearance, 1 SB win
Peyton Manning and Caldwell... 24-8, 0-1
Peyton Manning and Fox... 38-10, 2-3, 2 SB appearances, 1 win
Peyton Manning and Gary Kubiak... 7-2, 3-0, beat NE in AFCCG
Aaron Rodgers and Mike McCarthy... 100-57-1, 9-7, 1 SB appearance, 1 SB win
Brett Favre and Holmgren (not Brady era)... 160-93-0, 12-10, 2 SB appearances, Won 1
Brett Favre in GB, Brady era... 69-43, 3-5, no SB appearances
Kurt Warner and anyone... two great years, lost to NE & PIT
Patrick Mahomes & Andy Reid... one great year, lost to NE

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:43 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Sorry, but you can elaborate your dissatisfactions with Tomlin's flaws (of which many are legit complaints or areas that could/should improve), but let's face it... no one else has done better in the Tom Brady era, other than Belichick.

look at the coaches with All-Pro or HOF level QBs in Brady era:

Tomlin & Ben... 115-58-1, 4 years of 12-4 or better, 8-7 postseason, 2 SB trips, 1 SB win, 0-1 vs NE in postseason
Phil Rivers and anyone... 118-90-0, 5-6 in playoffs, no SB, 0-3 vs NE
Brees/Payton... 125-80-0, 8-6 in post-season, 1 SB trip, 1 SB win
Peyton Manning and Dungy... 85-27-0, 9-9, 2 SB appearance, 1 SB win
Peyton Manning and Caldwell... 24-8, 0-1
Peyton Manning and Fox... 38-10, 2-3, 2 SB appearances, 1 win
Peyton Manning and Gary Kubiak... 7-2, 3-0, beat NE in AFCCG
Aaron Rodgers and Mike McCarthy... 100-57-1, 9-7, 1 SB appearance, 1 SB win
Brett Favre and Holmgren (not Brady era)... 160-93-0, 12-10, 2 SB appearances, Won 1
Brett Favre in GB, Brady era... 69-43, 3-5, no SB appearances
Kurt Warner and anyone... two great years, lost to NE & PIT
Patrick Mahomes & Andy Reid... one great year, lost to NE


B2B, in fairness to others, is the complaint that Tomlin's win-loss record is subpar or is it that the reason Tomlin's win-loss record is not EVEN better is because of subpar game planning and philosophy.

It is, after all, the contention of many around these parts that Tomlin's record is primarily due to having amazing talent on the team.

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:52 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
It is, after all, the contention of many around these parts that Tomlin's record is primarily due to having amazing talent on the team.


Yep. Hasn't won shit with HIS team. He inherited Lebeau, and a core of great players that went to 2 SB's.

Years later as this team has become completely his, you have a RB that sits out the entire year....a WR that walks out on the team. The weed culture. What is it, THREE playoff wins since that last SB eight years ago?

Those last 8 years certainly don't stack up all that great against a lot of coaches not named Belicheat. We've seen the shitshow Tomlin is running - team doesn't have the focus or discipline to do squat in the postseason. But let's keep jerking off over "never had a losing season".

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:54 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
No you're not calling AB a JAG and you are good to remind me of that so that this does not end up a debate about a straw man.

I do not deny that a catch radius is important, but my point of sticking a bunch of question and exclamations after "catch radius" is to remind us that AB without a super big catch radius nonetheless pulls in insane catches. The guy is a human highlight reel! He seems to do just fine without a catch radius.

His talent is NOT the reason the offense has underperformed. I just don't see it. His ego, maybe.

Honest question: who would you take in his prime, AB or Fitz?


AB has fantastic hand eye coordination. There have always been guys in the league with fantastic hand eye coordination. Now you might think I'm downplaying AB's hand eye coordination.

Fitzgerald.

And I'll remind everyone that my position is that AB is a HOFer and he earned that.

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Up by 4, pull the plug. Fire Mike Tomlin.


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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:54 pm 
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Name the amazing talent on defense. They've assembled some nice talent on O since the D got old, but overall it's not like they have greatly underperformed their talent level.

Could they have been better? Yes. Could things have been optimized for more wins? Yes. Is it ultimately the HC's fault when the previously unstoppable PK costs you multiple games? Of course it is.

I'm only saying that the scoreboard tells a different tale: Tomlin has had the second-best results in the Brady era. Has the second most wins, only Coughlin & Fox have as many SB appearances, and only Coughlin more SB wins.

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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:07 pm 
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I’m actually a bit shocked Tomlin is still being held in high regard by anyone after that epic late season collapse he presided over.

7-2-1 and couldn’t secure a postseason birth even after beating long-time nemesis NE.

Allowing all that time to tick off the clock in Oakland all the while having two timeouts in pic ket should have been the final nail for any fan.

Tomlin is capable of putting some quality work on tape. His problem (among many) is how often he completely and totally fucks things up all by himself.

Just stands on the sidelines watching his only chance of winning (the time) tick away like he’s never coached a game before or even done the most basic of math.

It’s inexcusable.


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 Post subject: Re: Tony Tap Out with more drama
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:10 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Name the amazing talent on defense. They've assembled some nice talent on O since the D got old, but overall it's not like they have greatly underperformed their talent level.

Could they have been better? Yes. Could things have been optimized for more wins? Yes. Is it ultimately the HC's fault when the previously unstoppable PK costs you multiple games? Of course it is.

I'm only saying that the scoreboard tells a different tale: Tomlin has had the second-best results in the Brady era. Has the second most wins, only Coughlin & Fox have as many SB appearances, and only Coughlin more SB wins.


The team from 2007-2011 had amazing talent on defense and Ben was in his prime to make an offense with not great talent go just enough to win.

Not surprising that they had a .688 winning percentage, 2 AFCCG appearances, 2 Super Bowls, and one Lombardi and 4 playoff appearances in 5 years.

But when that defense was done, they had only a .643 WP, only 4 playoff appearances in 7 years, one AFCCG and no Super Bowls. And only three lackluster playoff wins to show for that.

Doesn’t look so stellar when you break it up between Cowher/LeBeau-built defense and Tomlin/Butler built defense, now does it?

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Last edited by Jeemie on Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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