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 Post subject: Re: More Leveon Bell talk.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:22 pm 
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swissvale72 wrote:
I'm hoping we have LBell and AB in Black & Gold for the opener next year. Might actually make me believe.


They could have the '78 Steelers on the sidelines, but they won't sniff a Lombardi as long as Tomlin's on the sidelines.


Agree. I can't get excited about anything the do unless it involves Tomlin being gone. Him taking even more control is hilarious. It's going to take the disaster Tomlin will cook up after Ben is gone to get Rooney to make a move. We'd probably be better off trading Ben for something good now and let Tomlin ride the ship down with Dobbs at QB.

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 Post subject: Re: More Leveon Bell talk.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:57 am 
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I will finally chime in here.

If the Steelers do none of the moves that I want, giving extensions to Ben, Pouncey, Haden, give Bud a new contract, cut Gilbert and Burnett then they are most likely sitting at just $19 million in cap space.

The transition tag for Bell will most likely be some $9.2 million and I know his camp will push for it being $14.544 million. It will most likely have to be decided by arbitration or the NFL, etc. And who really thinks the Steelers will win??

So, $19 million minus 14.544 million leave the team with what exactly??

The minute a team puts the transition or franchise tag on a player, that money is in limbo, it is taken into account, it is on the books. Suddenly the Steelers would have just $4.46 million in cap space.

Even if they are able to get away with $9.2 million for the transition tag, that still leaves them with just $10 million in cap space.

That will not only greatly hinder their efforts in signing any free agents of note, but will also make it harder to sign their own free agents that they may want to keep, Foster, Jesse James, etc.

Now some may argue that hey maybe some team will offer a deal to Bell quickly in the first week of free agency. Yeah? So? What makes any of you think that Bell will quickly sign the first offer sheet that comes his way?? That he won't hold out for the best deal possible. It could take a week, two weeks, a month, 3 months. And in all of that time that $9.2 million or $14.544 million is in limbo and we can't use it to sign anybody.

This shit with Bell has to end, enough of this insanity. The time for getting value out of Bell has long passed. They blew it, they should have given him the non-exclusive tag two years ago. There is no way to save face now, there is no way to even recoup a comp pick. They will make some of the moves that I predict, will give Ben and Pouncey extensions, will free up money, will sign free agents and I think it will cancel out or drastically lower that 3rd round comp pick for Bell to say a 5th round or 6th round comp pick. It just is not worth it, they have wasted enough time with Bell, let him go and don't waste/tie up any more money into him. That money has to be put to better use.

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 Post subject: Re: More Leveon Bell talk.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:20 pm 
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Scrunge nailing it.

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 Post subject: Re: More Leveon Bell talk.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:37 pm 
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TB wrote:
Scrunge nailing it.

Except that those other signings don't simply lower the comp pick, they wipe it out.

If I understand the comp formula, the highest picks on each side cancel each other out, regardless of contract value, etc.

You sign:
A Tier 3 FA
A TIer 4 FA
A Tier 5 FA

You lose:
A Tier 1 FA (Bell)
A Tier 3 FA (Alualu)
A Tier 4 FA (Jesse James)

The top FA you signed cancels out Bell... even if it's from a lower tier.
The Second one you signed cancels out Alualu.
The 3rd cancels out James.

You get no comp pick, unless you randomly come up in the 7th round comp picks added to make it a full round.

IIRC, we had nearly this exact situation the last time we lost a high-priced FA.

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 Post subject: Re: More Leveon Bell talk.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:12 pm 
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The cap is fungible - the value of the tag is inconsequential. No big deal, at all, to temporarily create the space to carry the tag.

It's only an issue, potentially, if he decides to play out the tag and you can't/won't trade him.

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 Post subject: Re: More Leveon Bell talk.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:38 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
TB wrote:
Scrunge nailing it.

Except that those other signings don't simply lower the comp pick, they wipe it out.

If I understand the comp formula, the highest picks on each side cancel each other out, regardless of contract value, etc.

You sign:
A Tier 3 FA
A TIer 4 FA
A Tier 5 FA

You lose:
A Tier 1 FA (Bell)
A Tier 3 FA (Alualu)
A Tier 4 FA (Jesse James)

The top FA you signed cancels out Bell... even if it's from a lower tier.
The Second one you signed cancels out Alualu.
The 3rd cancels out James.

You get no comp pick, unless you randomly come up in the 7th round comp picks added to make it a full round.

IIRC, we had nearly this exact situation the last time we lost a high-priced FA.


I believe you're right. My understanding is that the only way a signed FA that's a lower round value would cancel out a higher round value lost FA is if there are no other qualifying lost FAs applicable to cancel it out. Example:

Lost:

3rd round FA
6th round FA
7th Round FA

Signed:
4th round FA
4th round FA

= The signed 4th round FA would cancel out the 6th round FA, the other signed 4th round FA would cancel out the 7th round, and we would receive a 3rd round compensatory pick. The signed 4th round FAs would not qualify to cancel out the 3rd round FA that was lost. But, if it was:

Lost:

3rd round FA
6th round FA
7th round FA

Signed:

4th round FA
4th round FA
7th round FA

= We get nothing, which I believe was what you were getting at. The 7th round lost/signed would cancel each other out, the 4th round FA would cancel out the 6th round FA, and the other 4th round FA would in fact cancel out the 3rd round lost FA since there are no other available lost FAs to cancel out.

So if we didn't sign anyone to a yearly contract/comparable to what Bell receives, and don't sign as many qualifying FAs than we lose, we'd end up with a 3rd rounder. If they're smart they'll hopefully lose some potential qualifying UFAs like Chickillo that would help protect keeping that potential third rounder from a lost/gained numbers standpoint as long as they don't sign anyone who will be considered the same value as Bell in the formula.

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 Post subject: Re: More Leveon Bell talk.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:48 am 
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Sorry, but worrying about not signing too many players in free agency and 'hoping' that some of our free agents leave so that we can get a 3rd round comp pick for Bell is ridiculous.

This team needs to make bold moves in free agency this year. Even with $19 million in cap space that is enough to sign one big defensive free agent.

I pointed this out in other threads but the Bears gave their home grown talent, CB Kyle Fuller, a 4 year, $56 million contract last March. What does he have to do with Bell?? Quite a lot actually.

The Bears placed the transition tag on Fuller. That transition tag was $12.9 million. The Green Bay Packers quickly made an offer to Fuller and the Bears matched it, that is where the 4 year $56 million contract came from.

The Pack had an $18 million signing bonus and had another $1 million combined in workout and roster bonuses with a base salary of $1 million in that offer sheet. His first year cap hit was $6.5 million.

To get that whole thing started Fuller had to first sign the offer sheet, what if Bell in a similar situation turns up his nose at the offer sheets from various teams???

My whole point is that Bell might take advantage of some CBA loophole and actually have the transition tag be $14.5 million and if he takes his time in signing an offer sheet then the team again is hamstrung in free agency and has to 'settle' for the Jon Bostics, and Morgan Burnetts.

I would rather have a veteran CB/S signed in free agency, maybe a Ronald Darby or Roby or Landon Collins for $5 years, $65 million with a $20 million signing bonus and a first year cap hit of say $7 million, rather than play games and hope we get some 3rd round comp pick in 2020?? Trying to get value for Bell now, to waste any time doing so is spiting the nose on your own face.

Fuller and the way Chicago handled his signing was brilliant by the way. He was a first round pick, but they did NOT pick up his 5th year option. Then they placed the transition tag on him and allowed the market to come up with a fair price. Green Bay came up with an offer, the Bears matched it and Fuller had 7 INTs and made the Pro Bowl this past season. That is the way it is done Colbert, take some notes. No reason that you can't do the same with Artie Burns if Teryl Austin can turn him around.

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 Post subject: Re: More Leveon Bell talk.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:55 am 
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Scunge wrote:
Sorry, but worrying about not signing too many players in free agency and 'hoping' that some of our free agents leave so that we can get a 3rd round comp pick for Bell is ridiculous.

This team needs to make bold moves in free agency this year. Even with $19 million in cap space that is enough to sign one big defensive free agent.

I pointed this out in other threads but the Bears gave their home grown talent, CB Kyle Fuller, a 4 year, $56 million contract last March. What does he have to do with Bell?? Quite a lot actually.

The Bears placed the transition tag on Fuller. That transition tag was $12.9 million. The Green Bay Packers quickly made an offer to Fuller and the Bears matched it, that is where the 4 year $56 million contract came from.

The Pack had an $18 million signing bonus and had another $1 million combined in workout and roster bonuses with a base salary of $1 million in that offer sheet. His first year cap hit was $6.5 million.

To get that whole thing started Fuller had to first sign the offer sheet, what if Bell in a similar situation turns up his nose at the offer sheets from various teams???

My whole point is that Bell might take advantage of some CBA loophole and actually have the transition tag be $14.5 million and if he takes his time in signing an offer sheet then the team again is hamstrung in free agency and has to 'settle' for the Jon Bostics, and Morgan Burnetts.

I would rather have a veteran CB/S signed in free agency, maybe a Ronald Darby or Roby or Landon Collins for $5 years, $65 million with a $20 million signing bonus and a first year cap hit of say $7 million, rather than play games and hope we get some 3rd round comp pick in 2020?? Trying to get value for Bell now, to waste any time doing so is spiting the nose on your own face.

Fuller and the way Chicago handled his signing was brilliant by the way. He was a first round pick, but they did NOT pick up his 5th year option. Then they placed the transition tag on him and allowed the market to come up with a fair price. Green Bay came up with an offer, the Bears matched it and Fuller had 7 INTs and made the Pro Bowl this past season. That is the way it is done Colbert, take some notes. No reason that you can't do the same with Artie Burns if Teryl Austin can turn him around.


My sentiments exactly - let the asshole leave and find someone who can help this D out right now! Who gives two shits about a 3rd round compensatory pick in 2020 when we need that help in 2019!!!


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 Post subject: Re: More Leveon Bell talk.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:14 pm 
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Now there are people reporting that the Steelers are going to transition tag Bell and then trade him to some team hoping to get better than a 3rd round comp pick.

Where to start with this??? I mean WTF?? Why would a team give up a draft pick? The transition tag allows any team to walk up to Bell and his agent and make an offer. Bell and his agent can look over the offer sheet and then decide to sign it or not. Then the Steelers can either match it or not. If they do not match it then Bell is officially gone and there is no compensation. The Steelers can take up to 7 days to decide whether or not to match the offer. The transition tag does not involve any draft picks, it is not the franchise tag. How people can get this so wrong is beyond me.

Again, I brought up the Kyle Fuller situation from last season. Chicago put the transition tag on him of $12.9 million. Green Bay came calling and offered Fuller a 4 year $56 million contract. Fuller signed the offer sheet, Chicago matched the offer and kept Fuller. If they had declined to match the offer sheet then Green Bay would have Fuller and would not have had to give up ANY draft picks.

And again, I bet that Bell and his agent will win the case with the NFL in arguing that the transition tag should be $14.5 million.

There is no way to win this, the Steelers blew this whole Bell situation at every turn. They should have applied the non exclusive franchise tag the first time and last season should have applied the transition tag. Now, in year 3 it is over, let it go, there is no way to win this, to turn this into something positive. Just let it go.

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 Post subject: Re: More Leveon Bell talk.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:23 pm 
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Scunge wrote:
Now there are people reporting that the Steelers are going to transition tag Bell and then trade him to some team hoping to get better than a 3rd round comp pick.


The thinking is the Steelers match the offer, securing his rights, then trade him to either the same team or another contender. So there's still potential trade value, and how much probably depends on how much of that contract they are willing to subsidize (in other words, you're trading cap space as part of the deal).

It's not unreasonable. But it will depend on how big a SB he gets, and then not without it's risks.


And you keep saying tagging him hurts PIT cap space. This is not correct. They extend Ben and another player or two, and shift a lot of money into 2020. It's fungible, just a function of accounting. They create the cap space this year to carry the tag, then when he's traded or whatever, that credit will carryover to next year where it's offset by the money they shifted.

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 Post subject: Re: More Leveon Bell talk.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:21 pm 
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And maybe, just maybe, the Steelers are fine with matching and keeping Bell...


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 Post subject: Re: More Leveon Bell talk.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:26 pm 
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Jobus Rum wrote:
And maybe, just maybe, the Steelers are fine with matching and keeping Bell...


I am going to assume he does not get the same money we offered him the last two seasons. So it may end up saving some cap space when the contract he signs shakes out.


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 Post subject: Re: More Leveon Bell talk.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:00 pm 
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As many thought...

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2 ... market-nfl

Quote:
When Le’Veon Bell turned down an offer from the Pittsburgh Steelers rumored to be worth around $70 million with effective guarantees of $33 million over the first two years of a five-year deal, he did so under the belief that a much bigger pay day was out there waiting for him. However, if the initial contract projections from salary cap expert Jason Fitzgerald of OverTheCap.com are accurate, the Steelers’ star running back might struggle to find the huge deal he is looking for after all.

In a feature published by Pro Football Focus, Fitzgerald shared his thoughts about the sort of contract Bell could expect to find on the open market, coming up with a number which is barely an improvement on the one Pittsburgh offered in 2018.

“After sitting out all of 2018, veteran running back Le’Veon Bell will return to the NFL after resetting the market with his contract. He earned 71.0-plus overall grades in all five seasons he’s played in the NFL, including a career-high 89.7 mark in 2015.

From Jason:

“Bell comes with all kinds of red flags. He has had past injuries. He has had off the field suspensions. Nobody knows what kind of shape he is in. He has a lot of miles on his tires from his use in Pittsburgh. But he is dynamic and the best offensive talent that will be available this year. Given the amount of cap space a few teams have this year and how desperate those teams may be expecting someone to match his price but with a back-loaded contract to give the team some added protection.”

“Projection: Four years, $60 million, $33 million GTD”
Given that the four-year deal signed by Todd Gurley last year was worth $57.5 million and included $21.95 million fully guaranteed, there can be no dispute that such a deal would make Bell the highest paid player at his position in the league, but by barely enough to have warranted rejecting the Steelers last offer.

Sitting out an entire season just to earn an extra $1 million more a year makes little sense when you consider that Bell walked away from $14.544 million in 2018 under the terms of the franchise tag. Money he will have difficulty earning back in the long-term if $60 million over four years is the best he can do on the open market.

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 Post subject: Re: More Leveon Bell talk.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:29 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
The thinking is the Steelers match the offer, securing his rights, then trade him to either the same team or another contender. So there's still potential trade value, and how much probably depends on how much of that contract they are willing to subsidize (in other words, you're trading cap space as part of the deal).



No, there is no trade value. How stupid do the Steelers think other NFL teams are?? I mean really???

Say the Houston Texans want Bell. They go to Bell and offer him 5 years, $75 million, everything that Bell desires. Many teams will put high first year base salaries, a high signing bonus but they can also put other things in that contract, too.

If the Texans want Bell, all they have to do is put into the contract that there is a no trade clause, and poof, Kodiak, just like that the Steelers are screwed. They could match the 5 year, 75 million contract and be stuck with Bell and not be able to trade him. This would be an easy 'poison pill' that the Texans could put into the contract.

So, yes, the Steelers may move money around, free up money and then spend all of that damn money on Bell and be stuck with him and not be able to trade him. Meanwhile, all of that money and resources could have been used to actually play in free agency and get some impact players.

NO WAY TO WIN THIS.

And honestly, to think that the Steelers think they can outsmart the rest of the NFL teams is laughable. That they can somehow pull a hail mary at this late hour with Bell and get draft picks, make a trade?? :lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: More Leveon Bell talk.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:54 pm 
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Scunge wrote:
Kodiak wrote:
The thinking is the Steelers match the offer, securing his rights, then trade him to either the same team or another contender. So there's still potential trade value, and how much probably depends on how much of that contract they are willing to subsidize (in other words, you're trading cap space as part of the deal).



No, there is no trade value. How stupid do the Steelers think other NFL teams are?? I mean really???

Say the Houston Texans want Bell. They go to Bell and offer him 5 years, $75 million, everything that Bell desires. Many teams will put high first year base salaries, a high signing bonus but they can also put other things in that contract, too.

If the Texans want Bell, all they have to do is put into the contract that there is a no trade clause, and poof, Kodiak, just like that the Steelers are screwed. They could match the 5 year, 75 million contract and be stuck with Bell and not be able to trade him. This would be an easy 'poison pill' that the Texans could put into the contract.

So, yes, the Steelers may move money around, free up money and then spend all of that damn money on Bell and be stuck with him and not be able to trade him. Meanwhile, all of that money and resources could have been used to actually play in free agency and get some impact players.

NO WAY TO WIN THIS.

And honestly, to think that the Steelers think they can outsmart the rest of the NFL teams is laughable. That they can somehow pull a hail mary at this late hour with Bell and get draft picks, make a trade?? :lol: :lol: :lol:


Last CBA outlawed poison pills. At best they could make it unpalatable for the Steelers and make the contract high for the first 2 seasons.

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 Post subject: Re: More Leveon Bell talk.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:04 pm 
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This is going to be a disaster and can see this blowing up in their face. It just time to move on and move forward adding ourselves a quality playmaker on defense.


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 Post subject: Re: More Leveon Bell talk.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:57 am 
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I trust the Steelers to collect information that will help them make the best decision. Bell has behaved in a unique way. What player ever turned down $14.5M? It was near impossible to predict he would have done that. This time around, there will not be a surprise unknown. They should do their due diligence and make the best possible choice. If tagging him is what that comes to , then so be it.

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 Post subject: Re: More Leveon Bell talk.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:35 pm 
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jebrick wrote:
Last CBA outlawed poison pills. At best they could make it unpalatable for the Steelers and make the contract high for the first 2 seasons.


The reason why I put the poison pill in quotes is because it would not actually be one but would in effect be one if that makes any sense.

Having a no trade clause is not some strange thing, it is in some NFL contracts, just as club options, performance escalators, bonuses for games played, etc.

When a player is slapped with the transition tag he is able to NEGOTIATE with NFL teams when it comes to the offer sheet, is able to talk with them about it. So, it isn't like having a no trade clause would be something that is out of left field, or something that the player wouldn't want to have in his contract.

When I think of true poison pills they were really bizarre and ridiculous, which is why they were banned. Like Nate Burleson's contract was guaranteed if he played 5 or more games in the state of Minnesota in any given year. They also had a second part where his contract was guaranteed if his base salary was more than the entire RBs salaries combined. Just ridiculous components to the offer sheet.

But to have a no trade clause?? Nothing wrong with that to me, nothing against the CBA as far as I can tell.

The only thing that I see the CBA being against would be what the Steelers are trying to do. Here is an NFL team who franchised tagged a player, twice, and then is trying to transition tag, match an offer sheet and then turn around and use extortion to force that team to give up draft picks???

That is not going to fly!!! Come on people, the NFL is going to shoot that down pretty quickly, Bell and his agent will put a stop to it pretty quickly, are probably already in touch with the NFL crying foul right now.

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 Post subject: Re: More Leveon Bell talk.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:55 am 
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If Bell signed a contract with a no trade clause and the Steelers match they get Bell. If they do not match they lose Bell to FA. I do not see a downside.

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 Post subject: Re: More Leveon Bell talk.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:33 pm 
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jebrick wrote:
If Bell signed a contract with a no trade clause and the Steelers match they get Bell. If they do not match they lose Bell to FA. I do not see a downside.


There’s a huge downside:

If we’re only tagging Bell to trade him, and if another team signs him to a contract with a big signing bonus, we would have to eat that signing bonus as dead money if we end up matching and trading him.

That’s huge for a team that may already have $20 million in dead money watching AB play for another team.

There are a ton of downsides really. He’s an albatross, let him fucking go.

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 Post subject: Re: More Leveon Bell talk.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:36 pm 
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Again, you guys are missing the obvious. It’s quite possible, probably likely, that they want to keep Bell. This way, they can keep him if he’s reasonably priced...let him go if it’s too pricey. LB would be pretty much at their mercy. Unless he opted to sit out again...career suicide.
I’m not suggesting it’s a good idea, just that this is more likely than tagging him with the idea of trading him.


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 Post subject: Re: More Leveon Bell talk.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:41 pm 
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Jobus Rum wrote:
Again, you guys are missing the obvious. It’s quite possible, probably likely, that they want to keep Bell. This way, they can keep him if he’s reasonably priced...let him go if it’s too pricey. LB would be pretty much at their mercy. Unless he opted to sit out again...career suicide.
I’m not suggesting it’s a good idea, just that this is more likely than tagging him with the idea of trading him.


Plus, if Rooney really thought that locker room was a problem then Tomlin would be gone.

Tomlin, Bell and AB all Steelers next year.....keeping the band together to play small crowds ["WOW remember when these guys were big?!?"]

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 Post subject: Re: More Leveon Bell talk.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:45 pm 
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this is going to come back and bit the Steelers and watch we end up without a com pick


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 Post subject: Re: More Leveon Bell talk.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:58 pm 
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Scunge wrote:
No, there is no trade value. How stupid do the Steelers think other NFL teams are?? I mean really???


If you think another team is going to offer Bell something, to sign him....then, yes, there is trade value. It's really that simple.

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 Post subject: Re: More Leveon Bell talk.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:02 pm 
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TB wrote:
If we’re only tagging Bell to trade him, and if another team signs him to a contract with a big signing bonus, we would have to eat that signing bonus as dead money if we end up matching and trading him.


Presumably they will not exercise the option to match if a large SB is involved.

They are locked into @ $10M only if he signs the tender and doesn't reach a deal with another team. It's practically a free option. I don't get why people are bitching about this.

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