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 Post subject: Awesome breakdown of the failed fake punt
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:32 pm 
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https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/p ... saints-nfl

The killer statement:

Quote:
The assignment given Matakevich here violates one of the most basic coaching principles: don’t ask players to do things they are not capable of doing.


Problem is...Mike Tomlin and his coaches seem to make a habit of asking players to do things they’re not capable of doing. All the way back to 3rd and 7 sweep with a slow of foot QB and relying on a key block to come from a third string O-lineman.

This was damning of Danny Smith on that play.

Quote:
It’s possible special teams coach Danny Smith was anticipating a different alignment from the Saints. Perhaps something that gave him an “I-O” block at the point of attack, meaning there would be a defender lined up inside of Matakevich and outside of Chickillo. Each player would then have an angle on their defender and would have an easier job turning them and creating a hole for Nix. If that was the case, there should have been a “hot” check to either change the aiming point for Nix or call the play off entirely. There was no hot check and the play failed. Our season seemed to fail with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Awesome breakdown of the failed fake punt
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:00 pm 
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Maddening. Thanks Mike.


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 Post subject: Re: Awesome breakdown of the failed fake punt
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:31 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/platform/amp/2019/1/28/18195768/coaches-corner-the-failed-fake-punt-and-what-mike-tomlin-should-learn-from-it-steelers-saints-nfl

The killer statement:

Quote:
The assignment given Matakevich here violates one of the most basic coaching principles: don’t ask players to do things they are not capable of doing.


Problem is...Mike Tomlin and his coaches seem to make a habit of asking players to do things they’re not capable of doing. All the way back to 3rd and 7 sweep with a slow of foot QB and relying on a key block to come from a third string O-lineman.

This was damning of Danny Smith on that play.

Quote:
It’s possible special teams coach Danny Smith was anticipating a different alignment from the Saints. Perhaps something that gave him an “I-O” block at the point of attack, meaning there would be a defender lined up inside of Matakevich and outside of Chickillo. Each player would then have an angle on their defender and would have an easier job turning them and creating a hole for Nix. If that was the case, there should have been a “hot” check to either change the aiming point for Nix or call the play off entirely. There was no hot check and the play failed. Our season seemed to fail with it.


Hard to say entirely without being in the coaches room when it was drawn up. Watching the replay again, I'd bet the coaches saw how hard the DT was going across the guard's face and crashing the A gap and thought it could be a fairly easy wash block from Matakavich. Size differences don't mean much when the target is already going in the direction you want him to go. Unfortunately, the DT made a good read and was able to plant his position and cause just enough of a disruption to make the play stop short. And remember, the play was only a half yard short even without it going absolutely to plan.

Which means we were probably a half yard short from everyone calling this the greatest play call of the Tomlin era. But hey, hindsight and all that.


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 Post subject: Re: Awesome breakdown of the failed fake punt
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:36 pm 
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Louis Lipps Service wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/platform/amp/2019/1/28/18195768/coaches-corner-the-failed-fake-punt-and-what-mike-tomlin-should-learn-from-it-steelers-saints-nfl

The killer statement:

Quote:
The assignment given Matakevich here violates one of the most basic coaching principles: don’t ask players to do things they are not capable of doing.


Problem is...Mike Tomlin and his coaches seem to make a habit of asking players to do things they’re not capable of doing. All the way back to 3rd and 7 sweep with a slow of foot QB and relying on a key block to come from a third string O-lineman.

This was damning of Danny Smith on that play.

Quote:
It’s possible special teams coach Danny Smith was anticipating a different alignment from the Saints. Perhaps something that gave him an “I-O” block at the point of attack, meaning there would be a defender lined up inside of Matakevich and outside of Chickillo. Each player would then have an angle on their defender and would have an easier job turning them and creating a hole for Nix. If that was the case, there should have been a “hot” check to either change the aiming point for Nix or call the play off entirely. There was no hot check and the play failed. Our season seemed to fail with it.


Hard to say entirely without being in the coaches room when it was drawn up. Watching the replay again, I'd bet the coaches saw how hard the DT was going across the guard's face and crashing the A gap and thought it could be a fairly easy wash block from Matakavich. Size differences don't mean much when the target is already going in the direction you want him to go. Unfortunately, the DT made a good read and was able to plant his position and cause just enough of a disruption to make the play stop short. And remember, the play was only a half yard short even without it going absolutely to plan.

Which means we were probably a half yard short from everyone calling this the greatest play call of the Tomlin era. But hey, hindsight and all that.


I didn't have a huge problem with going for it on 4th down in that spot but I had a huge problem with how they decided to go for it. That play is not designed for the yardage it even got.


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 Post subject: Re: Awesome breakdown of the failed fake punt
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:55 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/platform/amp/2019/1/28/18195768/coaches-corner-the-failed-fake-punt-and-what-mike-tomlin-should-learn-from-it-steelers-saints-nfl

The killer statement:

Quote:
The assignment given Matakevich here violates one of the most basic coaching principles: don’t ask players to do things they are not capable of doing.


Problem is...Mike Tomlin and his coaches seem to make a habit of asking players to do things they’re not capable of doing. All the way back to 3rd and 7 sweep with a slow of foot QB and relying on a key block to come from a third string O-lineman.

This was damning of Danny Smith on that play.

Quote:
It’s possible special teams coach Danny Smith was anticipating a different alignment from the Saints. Perhaps something that gave him an “I-O” block at the point of attack, meaning there would be a defender lined up inside of Matakevich and outside of Chickillo. Each player would then have an angle on their defender and would have an easier job turning them and creating a hole for Nix. If that was the case, there should have been a “hot” check to either change the aiming point for Nix or call the play off entirely. There was no hot check and the play failed. Our season seemed to fail with it.

And this is the home run statement...
Quote:
The fake punt call did not lose that football game for us. But its reliance upon players being asked to do things they were not capable of doing just might have. This is the primary lesson I would encourage Coach Tomlin and his staff to consider as they self-evaluate this off-season. How can they reduce the number of times players are put in positions of weakness? How can they scheme to the strengths of their players? The answer to these questions may very well bridge the gap between continued disappointment and that elusive seventh Super Bowl

Don’t let your laughter at the thought that Mike Tomlin might actually be self-evaluating take away from the impact of the message...


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 Post subject: Re: Awesome breakdown of the failed fake punt
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:58 pm 
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Louis Lipps Service wrote:
Hard to say entirely without being in the coaches room when it was drawn up. Watching the replay again, I'd bet the coaches saw how hard the DT was going across the guard's face and crashing the A gap and thought it could be a fairly easy wash block from Matakavich. Size differences don't mean much when the target is already going in the direction you want him to go. Unfortunately, the DT made a good read and was able to plant his position and cause just enough of a disruption to make the play stop short. And remember, the play was only a half yard short even without it going absolutely to plan.

Which means we were probably a half yard short from everyone calling this the greatest play call of the Tomlin era. But hey, hindsight and all that.
I was gonna post the same thing. They are playing a team on the other side of the LOS.

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 Post subject: Re: Awesome breakdown of the failed fake punt
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:20 pm 
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Or you could just give the big guy the ball and let him throw for the first down like he’s been doing for 3 straight hours.


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 Post subject: Re: Awesome breakdown of the failed fake punt
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:29 pm 
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We do what we do.
Next man up.
Iron sharpens iron.
The standard is the standard.

Watch the aviator sunglasses wearing schmuck get a fucking two-year extension because EMR thinks the locker room is stable.

Somehow, Danny Smith is still employed.

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 Post subject: Re: Awesome breakdown of the failed fake punt
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:51 pm 
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stillthere wrote:

I didn't have a huge problem with going for it on 4th down in that spot but I had a huge problem with how they decided to go for it. That play is not designed for the yardage it even got.


DING DING DING- this is the answer.

They needed 5 yards. And they gave it to a Fullback who had a grand total of 0 (ZERO!) carries the entire season. I can buy the attempt if it was 2 yards...maybe even 3, 4 would be stretching it

So yes let's hand it to the guy who hasn't touched the ball all season long for possibly the greatest and most important play of the year

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 Post subject: Re: Awesome breakdown of the failed fake punt
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:59 pm 
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So the O line opens a hole big enough to drive a truck through, and you don't give it to a guy that has seen few snaps. When nobody but one or two defensive players are looking for him to get the ball.

The fact that Nix had few carries is irrelevant. That is the whole point, for fucks sake.

Talk about agenda.

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 Post subject: Re: Awesome breakdown of the failed fake punt
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:23 pm 
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I’ll never forget the game against the ravens in 2015. The Michael Vick game that we lost in OT. Last play of the game, game on the line, the call was for a QB roll-out right. Vick, as a lefty, was historically dreadful when rolling to his right. Needless to say the play failed and we lost the game. At that moment I realized there was serious ineptitude on the sidelines.

If I recall there was a long thread in this board about that game, and how fucking stupid that play call was.


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 Post subject: Re: Awesome breakdown of the failed fake punt
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:51 pm 
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Obviously wrote:
We do what we do.
Next man up.
Iron sharpens iron.
The standard is the standard.

Watch the aviator sunglasses wearing schmuck get a fucking two-year extension because EMR thinks the locker room is stable.

Somehow, Danny Smith is still employed.


Has anyone (coaches,reporters) even mentioned STs and the ranked last type stats in most categories, or the STs under Smith, now going into his 7th season, as a unit that has been disastrous at times? But fucking Art can talk about simply the FGs we didn't execute this year that our "Pro Bowl" kicker did last season? Part of our disastrous season that he didn't think we had included a huge punt return for a TD by Desmond King in our biggest 2nd half collapse ever as a franchise.


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 Post subject: Re: Awesome breakdown of the failed fake punt
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:16 pm 
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the-other-burg wrote:
I’ll never forget the game against the ravens in 2015. The Michael Vick game that we lost in OT. Last play of the game, game on the line, the call was for a QB roll-out right. Vick, as a lefty, was historically dreadful when rolling to his right. Needless to say the play failed and we lost the game. At that moment I realized there was serious ineptitude on the sidelines.

If I recall there was a long thread in this board about that game, and how fucking stupid that play call was.


COR-TEN what did you think of this play that the-other-burg refers to? Another brilliant draw-up by Coach Shades?


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 Post subject: Re: Awesome breakdown of the failed fake punt
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:33 pm 
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the-other-burg wrote:
I’ll never forget the game against the ravens in 2015. The Michael Vick game that we lost in OT. Last play of the game, game on the line, the call was for a QB roll-out right. Vick, as a lefty, was historically dreadful when rolling to his right. Needless to say the play failed and we lost the game. At that moment I realized there was serious ineptitude on the sidelines.

If I recall there was a long thread in this board about that game, and how fucking stupid that play call was.


Same season we kept Josh Scobee on for several games.

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 Post subject: Re: Awesome breakdown of the failed fake punt
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:35 pm 
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Hinestuff wrote:
Obviously wrote:
We do what we do.
Next man up.
Iron sharpens iron.
The standard is the standard.

Watch the aviator sunglasses wearing schmuck get a fucking two-year extension because EMR thinks the locker room is stable.

Somehow, Danny Smith is still employed.


Has anyone (coaches,reporters) even mentioned STs and the ranked last type stats in most categories, or the STs under Smith, now going into his 7th season, as a unit that has been disastrous at times? But fucking Art can talk about simply the FGs we didn't execute this year that our "Pro Bowl" kicker did last season? Part of our disastrous season that he didn't think we had included a huge punt return for a TD by Desmond King in our biggest 2nd half collapse ever as a franchise.


I don’t get on Smtih for that as much because a) there was a block in the back not called and b) one of our guys oulled up lame and as a consequence his lane was vacated...which is where King went.

Easier to score when it’s 11 on 9.

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 Post subject: Re: Awesome breakdown of the failed fake punt
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:31 am 
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COR-TEN wrote:
So the O line opens a hole big enough to drive a truck through, and you don't give it to a guy that has seen few snaps. When nobody but one or two defensive players are looking for him to get the ball.

The fact that Nix had few carries is irrelevant. That is the whole point, for fucks sake.

Talk about agenda.



By your logic, NE should have given the ball to their FB Deviln instead of Michel on their GW TD. After all, no one from KC would have expected that!
NE isn't stupid enough to take the ball away from a player who has the hot hand and has been destroying the KC defense. Hmmm...that sounds a lot like Ben R killing the Saints for 3 hours, yet we decide on a Ridley plunge (and consequent fumble) and then a ST guy known for blocking/tackling needing 5 yards to save a season. I'd trust Ben over Ridley and Nix, but you apparently wouldn't?

Thanks for your opinion, even though most coaches with half a brain would disagree with that take. Most would also agree that you outsmarted yourself in such a scenario.
Again I'd trust a big guy like Nix by momentum alone to probably get 2 yards, but anything beyond that for a guy who has not seen any live bullets carrying the ball is infinite stupidity

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 Post subject: Re: Awesome breakdown of the failed fake punt
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:45 pm 
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Donnie Brasco wrote:
COR-TEN wrote:
So the O line opens a hole big enough to drive a truck through, and you don't give it to a guy that has seen few snaps. When nobody but one or two defensive players are looking for him to get the ball.

The fact that Nix had few carries is irrelevant. That is the whole point, for fucks sake.

Talk about agenda.



By your logic, NE should have given the ball to their FB Deviln instead of Michel on their GW TD. After all, no one from KC would have expected that!
NE isn't stupid enough to take the ball away from a player who has the hot hand and has been destroying the KC defense. Hmmm...that sounds a lot like Ben R killing the Saints for 3 hours, yet we decide on a Ridley plunge (and consequent fumble) and then a ST guy known for blocking/tackling needing 5 yards to save a season. I'd trust Ben over Ridley and Nix, but you apparently wouldn't?

Thanks for your opinion, even though most coaches with half a brain would disagree with that take. Most would also agree that you outsmarted yourself in such a scenario.
Again I'd trust a big guy like Nix by momentum alone to probably get 2 yards, but anything beyond that for a guy who has not seen any live bullets carrying the ball is infinite stupidity
Strawmen. And I challenge you to provide a list of coaches with "half a brain" that would disagree with tomlin taking the fake punt. Nix has scored TD's but "according to your logic" they should never have even considered Nix an option.

Neither play guarantees a first down. You can tell yourself that BR slinging it would have made the first, that way you can shit on tomlin and say the play design was horrible. Even when they came within half a yard of a 5 yard gain. He makes the half yard, and nobody is complaining. That much I can guarantee.

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 Post subject: Re: Awesome breakdown of the failed fake punt
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:25 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
Donnie Brasco wrote:
COR-TEN wrote:
So the O line opens a hole big enough to drive a truck through, and you don't give it to a guy that has seen few snaps. When nobody but one or two defensive players are looking for him to get the ball.

The fact that Nix had few carries is irrelevant. That is the whole point, for fucks sake.

Talk about agenda.



By your logic, NE should have given the ball to their FB Deviln instead of Michel on their GW TD. After all, no one from KC would have expected that!
NE isn't stupid enough to take the ball away from a player who has the hot hand and has been destroying the KC defense. Hmmm...that sounds a lot like Ben R killing the Saints for 3 hours, yet we decide on a Ridley plunge (and consequent fumble) and then a ST guy known for blocking/tackling needing 5 yards to save a season. I'd trust Ben over Ridley and Nix, but you apparently wouldn't?

Thanks for your opinion, even though most coaches with half a brain would disagree with that take. Most would also agree that you outsmarted yourself in such a scenario.
Again I'd trust a big guy like Nix by momentum alone to probably get 2 yards, but anything beyond that for a guy who has not seen any live bullets carrying the ball is infinite stupidity
Strawmen. And I challenge you to provide a list of coaches with "half a brain" that would disagree with tomlin taking the fake punt. Nix has scored TD's but "according to your logic" they should never have even considered Nix an option.

Neither play guarantees a first down. You can tell yourself that BR slinging it would have made the first, that way you can shit on tomlin and say the play design was horrible. Even when they came within half a yard of a 5 yard gain. He makes the half yard, and nobody is complaining. That much I can guarantee.


Again for about the 3rd time: you are telling me you'd rather give the ball to Nix/Ridley vs Ben R to win a game? Because that's what Tomlin did. Maybe Ben throws a pick 6 in either play but given the options I'd rather go down with my BEST guy vs the #8th or 9th offensive threat on the team

And just because the end result may have resulted in Nix getting a 1st down doesn't mean the process was correct. That's precisely the kind of thinking that Tomlin has: the end was correct, so my critical thinking was correct

Nothing could be further from the truth

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 Post subject: Re: Awesome breakdown of the failed fake punt
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:42 pm 
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Donnie Brasco wrote:
Again for about the 3rd time: you are telling me you'd rather give the ball to Nix/Ridley vs Ben R to win a game?
This is where your argument holds no water.

It wasn't a game winning play. Situationally, a fake punt wasn't going to win or lose the game. Which was proven later, when. . .

JuJu's fumble with the game on the line, however, was either going to win or lose the game. I often argue that subtlety and nuance is lost on society. But in this case, it can't be more clearer than black or white.

Would we both have been more comfortable sitting on our sofa's if they went up by 11 points? Absolutely.

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 Post subject: Re: Awesome breakdown of the failed fake punt
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:05 pm 
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Just to add a bit of context to this discussion: Over the last 5 years NFL teams convert 3rd or 4th and 5 roughly 44.4% of the time. Roethlisberger is 32 for 70 (45.7%) over that period. The Steelers as a team are 41 for 94 (43.6%).

So, the question: did that fake punt have a >45% chance of success? If not, then it was a bad call vs. going for it with the offense (never mind the other decision in play here - to go for it at all or punt).

Data:

http://pfref.com/tiny/7uYbG


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 Post subject: Re: Awesome breakdown of the failed fake punt
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:17 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
Donnie Brasco wrote:
Again for about the 3rd time: you are telling me you'd rather give the ball to Nix/Ridley vs Ben R to win a game?
This is where your argument holds no water.

It wasn't a game winning play. Situationally, a fake punt wasn't going to win or lose the game. Which was proven later, when. . .

JuJu's fumble with the game on the line, however, was either going to win or lose the game. I often argue that subtlety and nuance is lost on society. But in this case, it can't be more clearer than black or white.

Would we both have been more comfortable sitting on our sofa's if they went up by 11 points? Absolutely.


It was a key play in the game.

A critical moment...everyone knew it was.

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 Post subject: Re: Awesome breakdown of the failed fake punt
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:26 pm 
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Quote:
You can tell yourself that BR slinging it would have made the first, that way you can shit on tomlin and say the play design was horrible.

I’d say that any play that involves a couple of backup LBs, guys who aren’t normally asked to block, making key blocks at the POA is a bad...no, no...awful play design. But that’s just me...


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 Post subject: Re: Awesome breakdown of the failed fake punt
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:47 pm 
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As soon as I saw the snap I thought "OMFG Tomlin has fucked this team again, and this time right out of the playoffs".

"It was only half a yard short from being genius" is the funniest equivocation I've seen in a long time. I suppose it was inevitable that eventually the bar would be lowered below ground level.

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 Post subject: Re: Awesome breakdown of the failed fake punt
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:04 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
the-other-burg wrote:
I’ll never forget the game against the ravens in 2015. The Michael Vick game that we lost in OT. Last play of the game, game on the line, the call was for a QB roll-out right. Vick, as a lefty, was historically dreadful when rolling to his right. Needless to say the play failed and we lost the game. At that moment I realized there was serious ineptitude on the sidelines.

If I recall there was a long thread in this board about that game, and how fucking stupid that play call was.


Same season we kept Josh Scobee on for several games.



The same Scobee that had a good chance of getting cut in finals- traded for- a couple days prior to those cuts.


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 Post subject: Re: Awesome breakdown of the failed fake punt
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:59 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
Donnie Brasco wrote:
COR-TEN wrote:
So the O line opens a hole big enough to drive a truck through, and you don't give it to a guy that has seen few snaps. When nobody but one or two defensive players are looking for him to get the ball.

The fact that Nix had few carries is irrelevant. That is the whole point, for fucks sake.

Talk about agenda.



By your logic, NE should have given the ball to their FB Deviln instead of Michel on their GW TD. After all, no one from KC would have expected that!
NE isn't stupid enough to take the ball away from a player who has the hot hand and has been destroying the KC defense. Hmmm...that sounds a lot like Ben R killing the Saints for 3 hours, yet we decide on a Ridley plunge (and consequent fumble) and then a ST guy known for blocking/tackling needing 5 yards to save a season. I'd trust Ben over Ridley and Nix, but you apparently wouldn't?

Thanks for your opinion, even though most coaches with half a brain would disagree with that take. Most would also agree that you outsmarted yourself in such a scenario.
Again I'd trust a big guy like Nix by momentum alone to probably get 2 yards, but anything beyond that for a guy who has not seen any live bullets carrying the ball is infinite stupidity
Strawmen. And I challenge you to provide a list of coaches with "half a brain" that would disagree with tomlin taking the fake punt. Nix has scored TD's but "according to your logic" they should never have even considered Nix an option.

Neither play guarantees a first down. You can tell yourself that BR slinging it would have made the first, that way you can shit on tomlin and say the play design was horrible. Even when they came within half a yard of a 5 yard gain. He makes the half yard, and nobody is complaining. That much I can guarantee.


No one believes anything is guaranteed...only the chances are better with with better players and a better play.

Nix didn’t make that extra half yard because the players asked to execute the play couldn’t execute it...and 9 times out of 10 likely don’t execute it.

It was not putting those players in position to succeed.

It was asking them to execute against huge odds.

That’s not a winning play.

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