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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:53 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
They kept specific players with limited defense/offense upside for use on STs. IOW, Danny Smith gets the last few roster spots. Tyler Matakevich over Matthew Thomas. DHB over Damoun Patterson. Chickillo over Ola. I'm sure he wanted Switzer as a returner. He got the kicker and punter he wanted. How many more primarily ST players does he want?


I am simply telling you what Bouchette said. On this matter I don't have enough knowledge to render even a speculation.

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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:41 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
IRC, Tolmlin came into the interview with a stack of binders of x's and o's, explained his philosophy with examples of schemes, desired match ups, strategy and tactics, etc. about the existing roster. The brain part is what supposedly influenced the rooney's to hire him along with personality and leadership.


I remember that too.

Where's that mindset been the past couple of years?

How would such a mindset had led him to believe that with an entire half left against New England in 2017, he should take the air completely out of the ball and go heavy set?

Where was that mindset while they sat waiting for the review of the Jesse James catch?

Where was that mindset when he thought it would be cool to let the time tick away in the Oakland game, or again, when as soon as he got the lead against the Saints, it was time to take the deep pass away against the team that defended worst against the deep pass of any team in football, and go run- and short-pass heavy? With an entire quarter to go?

This evidence suggests that Mike Tomlin knew what it took to get the job, but now that he's had it for a few years with seeming job security, he doesn't pay as much attention to those things that got him the job.

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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:55 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
FromPittWithLove wrote:
I'm simply saying I like to live my life by the data before I label anything bad or good. I don't have the time or interest to do the work so I'mjust not willing to claim its good or bad.

I don't know your background, but I coached collegiately for a number of years (and made enough bad decisions that people would have rode me out town at the first chance). There were so many times I thought a decision (by my own HC or another) was beyond stupid only to realize the logic was pretty good. Taught me to sometimes to be a bit more generous when evaluating other people's decision making without the full picture. Again, I know this is the internet and that's not fun, so just bear with me.
This. Knee jerk reactions based on confirmation bias. There are so many moving parts, and parts that move behind the scenes that I'm not sure anybody really knows jack shit about "why" something happens. And you can be sure Tomlin won't be 100% honest in a presser - thus the well developed line of bullshit. Belichick says less. Maybe Tomlin should not say anything, take all responsibility for failures - regardless - compliment those responsible for successes, and leave the podium. How do you think THAT would go over with this fanbase?

IIRC, Tolmlin came into the interview with a stack of binders of x's and o's, explained his philosophy with examples of schemes, desired match ups, strategy and tactics, etc. about the existing roster. The brain part is what supposedly influenced the rooney's to hire him along with personality and leadership.

I also remember what ST looked like before Danny Smith. It was worse. I haven't studied his impact closely, but if you want to fire Smith based on stats alone, why do you want to fire Tomlin ignoring his stats?


Understanding how football philosophy impacts the plays that are chosen to execute is not knee jerk. It's sports 101.

The problem is Mike Tomlin's football philosophy which is probably rooted in his personality. It's a disaster for this roster as currently constructed in the current nfl era, therefore Mike Tomlin is a disaster for this roster as currently constructed in the current nfl era.

It's really rock level dumb that he can't figure this out, or won't.

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Up by 4, pull the plug. Fire Mike Tomlin.


Last edited by Havoc on Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:58 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
COR-TEN wrote:
IRC, Tolmlin came into the interview with a stack of binders of x's and o's, explained his philosophy with examples of schemes, desired match ups, strategy and tactics, etc. about the existing roster. The brain part is what supposedly influenced the rooney's to hire him along with personality and leadership.


I remember that too.

Where's that mindset been the past couple of years?


How about that interview stunt was BS? Tomlin could be a lousy coach and X's & O's simpleton, but still impress the hell out of someone who is nowhere near the level of a coach (i.e. Rooney).

I've seen my share of this where people talk out of their ass on a subject and impress people who don't know any better. Not to say Tomlin isn't a true football guy, he obviously is but that doesn't mean he's a good one.

There other side of it is that there are a lot of failures out there with great ideas....and little to no ability to execute (hence the failure).

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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:39 pm 
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Havoc wrote:
Understanding how football philosophy impacts the plays that are chosen to execute is not knee jerk.
I wasn't referring to the rest of your post. No doubt Tomlin has shown a pattern. But he's not football stupid, or doesn't know how to manage a team full of divas.

I was referring to the tendency of fans to see a result on the field, decide that what they see is just an affirmation that the coach/ player/ ref/ etc are what they thought he was. A JAG. A dumbfuck. Or a no talent hack, without knowing the thought process/ history/ discussions with said player/ how the opposing team adjusted, etc. You have to admit that happens a lot in fandom.

Everybody thought conner sucked last year. Didn't have the vision, burst, or power. . . didn't know protections. But I opined he simply didn't get enough playing time to learn protections, and didn't get the opportunity - with the knowledge that he will get the carries - to have an impact or adjust to an NFL game. He has the physical tools (albeit not enough jiggle and wiggle - like bell).

And the following was so nice you posted it twice. :o
Quote:
The problem is Mike Tomlin's football philosophy which is probably rooted in his personality. It's a disaster for this roster as currently constructed in the current nfl era, therefore Mike Tomlin is a disaster for this roster as currently constructed in the current nfl era.
Just jaggin' yer wares.

Quote:
It's really rock level dumb that he can't figure this out, or won't.
Since I don't believe Tomlin is rock level dumb (you don't get to be an NFL HC being that stupid), then there must be something else. Stubborn? Absolutely. Sure, his philosophy might not be something we agree with, but I also don't dismiss other shit that also might have influence. Dumb players and QB that has way more power over this team than is given credit for. I also don't dismiss narcissistic assholes like AB and Bell that cannot be controlled one way or another. The team has lots 'o' money invested in both of them. Cutting them loose at the first sign of trouble might not have been prudent from a business perspective. And I refuse to believe Tomlin didn't sit both AB and Bell down and explained to them the situation. Discipline can sometimes backfire. Might work for one player but not another.

Having said that, I don't rule out the possibility that Tomlin is directly responsible for this team's difficulties, but I simply don't have enough info or data to be 100% sure. Simply what happens on sunday isn't enough. As naive as that might sound.

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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:08 pm 
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Tomlin is a dumbfuck

His body of work, if you will, speaks for itself ....obviously

No one has done less with more

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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:34 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
Havoc wrote:
Understanding how football philosophy impacts the plays that are chosen to execute is not knee jerk.
I wasn't referring to the rest of your post. No doubt Tomlin has shown a pattern. But he's not football stupid, or doesn't know how to manage a team full of divas.

I was referring to the tendency of fans to see a result on the field, decide that what they see is just an affirmation that the coach/ player/ ref/ etc are what they thought he was. A JAG. A dumbfuck. Or a no talent hack, without knowing the thought process/ history/ discussions with said player/ how the opposing team adjusted, etc. You have to admit that happens a lot in fandom.

Everybody thought conner sucked last year. Didn't have the vision, burst, or power. . . didn't know protections. But I opined he simply didn't get enough playing time to learn protections, and didn't get the opportunity - with the knowledge that he will get the carries - to have an impact or adjust to an NFL game. He has the physical tools (albeit not enough jiggle and wiggle - like bell).

And the following was so nice you posted it twice. :o
Quote:
The problem is Mike Tomlin's football philosophy which is probably rooted in his personality. It's a disaster for this roster as currently constructed in the current nfl era, therefore Mike Tomlin is a disaster for this roster as currently constructed in the current nfl era.
Just jaggin' yer wares.

Quote:
It's really rock level dumb that he can't figure this out, or won't.
Since I don't believe Tomlin is rock level dumb (you don't get to be an NFL HC being that stupid), then there must be something else. Stubborn? Absolutely. Sure, his philosophy might not be something we agree with, but I also don't dismiss other shit that also might have influence. Dumb players and QB that has way more power over this team than is given credit for. I also don't dismiss narcissistic assholes like AB and Bell that cannot be controlled one way or another. The team has lots 'o' money invested in both of them. Cutting them loose at the first sign of trouble might not have been prudent from a business perspective. And I refuse to believe Tomlin didn't sit both AB and Bell down and explained to them the situation. Discipline can sometimes backfire. Might work for one player but not another.

Having said that, I don't rule out the possibility that Tomlin is directly responsible for this team's difficulties, but I simply don't have enough info or data to be 100% sure. Simply what happens on sunday isn't enough. As naive as that might sound.


I'm not saying Tomlin is dumb, but what he did in my signature is rock level dumb. The fact he doesn't get it is rock level dumb at the professional level.

That was the moment I lost all respect for him as a HC. It's rooted in philosophy plus maybe a lack of ability to discern, or it could be something else. Doesn't matter.

Mike D'Antoni was hired to be HC of the Lakers. They also brought in Steve Nash. D'Antoni was brought in to run his 7 seconds or less system he employed in Phoenix with Nash as his point guard.

Well, this was old Nash who couldn't stay healthy and didn't have anything left in the tank. The whole thing was a disaster, D'Antoni's system was a disaster because he didn't have the right personnel to run it.

To D'Antoni's credit, he did adjust and employed a different system, a slow half court system. He adjusted, but he's not the guy you would want to run a slow half court offense, because that's not what he is at heart.

Tomlin is not the right guy for this roster as currently constructed in the current era of the nfl. And really he's a dinosaur, this league is leaving those guys behind at the HC position and it's only going to increase.

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Up by 4, pull the plug. Fire Mike Tomlin.


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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:04 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
Havoc wrote:
Understanding how football philosophy impacts the plays that are chosen to execute is not knee jerk.
I wasn't referring to the rest of your post. No doubt Tomlin has shown a pattern. But he's not football stupid, or doesn't know how to manage a team full of divas.

I was referring to the tendency of fans to see a result on the field, decide that what they see is just an affirmation that the coach/ player/ ref/ etc are what they thought he was. A JAG. A dumbfuck. Or a no talent hack, without knowing the thought process/ history/ discussions with said player/ how the opposing team adjusted, etc. You have to admit that happens a lot in fandom.

Everybody thought conner sucked last year. Didn't have the vision, burst, or power. . . didn't know protections. But I opined he simply didn't get enough playing time to learn protections, and didn't get the opportunity - with the knowledge that he will get the carries - to have an impact or adjust to an NFL game. He has the physical tools (albeit not enough jiggle and wiggle - like bell).

And the following was so nice you posted it twice. :o
Quote:
The problem is Mike Tomlin's football philosophy which is probably rooted in his personality. It's a disaster for this roster as currently constructed in the current nfl era, therefore Mike Tomlin is a disaster for this roster as currently constructed in the current nfl era.
Just jaggin' yer wares.

Quote:
It's really rock level dumb that he can't figure this out, or won't.
Since I don't believe Tomlin is rock level dumb (you don't get to be an NFL HC being that stupid), then there must be something else. Stubborn? Absolutely. Sure, his philosophy might not be something we agree with, but I also don't dismiss other shit that also might have influence. Dumb players and QB that has way more power over this team than is given credit for. I also don't dismiss narcissistic assholes like AB and Bell that cannot be controlled one way or another. The team has lots 'o' money invested in both of them. Cutting them loose at the first sign of trouble might not have been prudent from a business perspective. And I refuse to believe Tomlin didn't sit both AB and Bell down and explained to them the situation. Discipline can sometimes backfire. Might work for one player but not another.

Having said that, I don't rule out the possibility that Tomlin is directly responsible for this team's difficulties, but I simply don't have enough info or data to be 100% sure. Simply what happens on sunday isn't enough. As naive as that might sound.


How is what happens on Sundays...what has happened on Sundays for years now...not enough data to discern that Mike Tomlin’s philosophy in big games is to sit on a lead if he has it “late” in games?

He’s been doing this for years.

To the point where in the New Orleans game, BEFORE HE DID IT, I predicted that he WOULD do it.

You realize it takes data to predict, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:26 pm 
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Quote:
Tomlin is not the right guy for this roster as currently constructed in the current era of the nfl. And really he's a dinosaur, this league is leaving those guys behind at the HC position and it's only going to increase.

I’ll take it a step further. Tomlin is a dinosaur, working for a dinosaur organization,that promotes a dinosaur philosophy.
Replacing him only matters, if the guy replacing him isn’t cut from the same cloth.

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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:03 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
COR-TEN wrote:
IRC, Tolmlin came into the interview with a stack of binders of x's and o's, explained his philosophy with examples of schemes, desired match ups, strategy and tactics, etc. about the existing roster. The brain part is what supposedly influenced the rooney's to hire him along with personality and leadership.


I remember that too.

Where's that mindset been the past couple of years?

How would such a mindset had led him to believe that with an entire half left against New England in 2017, he should take the air completely out of the ball and go heavy set?

Where was that mindset when he thought it would be cool to let the time tick away in the Oakland game, or again, when as soon as he got the lead against the Saints, it was time to take the deep pass away against the team that defended worst against the deep pass of any team in football, and go run- and short-pass heavy? With an entire quarter to go?


I am not defending Tomlin anymore but I know this will come across that way.

Is it possible that when Art said he wanted them to run the ball more/better that he told Mike the team had a lot of success when they get a lead and sit on it and he wanted to see that more from Mike?

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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:16 pm 
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fortythree wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
COR-TEN wrote:
IRC, Tolmlin came into the interview with a stack of binders of x's and o's, explained his philosophy with examples of schemes, desired match ups, strategy and tactics, etc. about the existing roster. The brain part is what supposedly influenced the rooney's to hire him along with personality and leadership.


I remember that too.

Where's that mindset been the past couple of years?

How would such a mindset had led him to believe that with an entire half left against New England in 2017, he should take the air completely out of the ball and go heavy set?

Where was that mindset when he thought it would be cool to let the time tick away in the Oakland game, or again, when as soon as he got the lead against the Saints, it was time to take the deep pass away against the team that defended worst against the deep pass of any team in football, and go run- and short-pass heavy? With an entire quarter to go?


I am not defending Tomlin anymore but I know this will come across that way.

Is it possible that when Art said he wanted them to run the ball more/better that he told Mike the team had a lot of success when they get a lead and sit on it and he wanted to see that more from Mike?


I won’t discount that possibility...

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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:43 pm 
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fortythree wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
COR-TEN wrote:
IRC, Tolmlin came into the interview with a stack of binders of x's and o's, explained his philosophy with examples of schemes, desired match ups, strategy and tactics, etc. about the existing roster. The brain part is what supposedly influenced the rooney's to hire him along with personality and leadership.


I remember that too.

Where's that mindset been the past couple of years?

How would such a mindset had led him to believe that with an entire half left against New England in 2017, he should take the air completely out of the ball and go heavy set?

Where was that mindset when he thought it would be cool to let the time tick away in the Oakland game, or again, when as soon as he got the lead against the Saints, it was time to take the deep pass away against the team that defended worst against the deep pass of any team in football, and go run- and short-pass heavy? With an entire quarter to go?


I am not defending Tomlin anymore but I know this will come across that way.

Is it possible that when Art said he wanted them to run the ball more/better that he told Mike the team had a lot of success when they get a lead and sit on it and he wanted to see that more from Mike?


While anything is possible I doubt that was the conversation. Had that been the conversation I am willing to bet that we would have seen less 30 yard bombs on 3rd and 1 during Haley's run at OC.


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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:54 pm 
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Jobus Rum wrote:
Quote:
Tomlin is not the right guy for this roster as currently constructed in the current era of the nfl. And really he's a dinosaur, this league is leaving those guys behind at the HC position and it's only going to increase.

I’ll take it a step further. Tomlin is a dinosaur, working for a dinosaur organization,that promotes a dinosaur philosophy.
Replacing him only matters, if the guy replacing him isn’t cut from the same cloth.

Wasn't this the knock on Cowher/franchise before Cowher retired? Not saying it's inaccurate just looks like a history repeating itself scenario to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:09 pm 
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Tomlin shelf life has expired for the steelers and they need to move on IMO. I also think the steelers Fo needs to change the way it handles FA and if that happens then it be a step in the right direction. Then if they do trade AB and get another #1 pick for AB the steelers can do a lot to get their Defense back.


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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:14 pm 
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Steelafan77 wrote:
Jobus Rum wrote:
Quote:
Tomlin is not the right guy for this roster as currently constructed in the current era of the nfl. And really he's a dinosaur, this league is leaving those guys behind at the HC position and it's only going to increase.

I’ll take it a step further. Tomlin is a dinosaur, working for a dinosaur organization,that promotes a dinosaur philosophy.
Replacing him only matters, if the guy replacing him isn’t cut from the same cloth.

Wasn't this the knock on Cowher/franchise before Cowher retired? Not saying it's inaccurate just looks like a history repeating itself scenario to me.


It was but two differences...Cowher didn’t get his franchise QB until late in his career, and then showed a willingness to rely on him in the playoffs.

Tomlin won early and has had a franchise QB his whole career...and someone pointed put that there hasn’t really been a head coach who won a title early who then won again much later in his career.

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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:20 pm 
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i agree their a difference between Tomlin and Cowher was who under center.
but this is another example of them keeping coaches to long.


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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:26 pm 
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My guess is that the Steelers allow Tomlin, in his final contract year to 'right the ship' so they aren't put in the situation to have to fire him after the 2019 season. I've posted it in other threads this is what I'm guessing is the approach. It's a win, win for the franchise. If Tomlin can turn it around the Steelers win and Tomlin keeps his job making releasing/firing him a non-factor. Tomlin gets a new contract next season and the Steelers keep their shinny not fired a coach in eons record relevant. If Tomlin allows this team to continually implode I think they simply not renew Tomlin and go with a new head coach. Perhaps even an inhouse candidate, ah hem..., Munchak. Still maintaining their haven't fired a head coach in eons record. JMO

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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:55 pm 
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Steelafan77 wrote:
My guess is that the Steelers allow Tomlin, in his final contract year to 'right the ship' so they aren't put in the situation to have to fire him after the 2019 season. I've posted it in other threads this is what I'm guessing is the approach. It's a win, win for the franchise. If Tomlin can turn it around the Steelers win and Tomlin keeps his job making releasing/firing him a non-factor. Tomlin gets a new contract next season and the Steelers keep their shinny not fired a coach in eons record relevant. If Tomlin allows this team to continually implode I think they simply not renew Tomlin and go with a new head coach. Perhaps even an inhouse candidate, ah hem..., Munchak. Still maintaining their haven't fired a head coach in eons record. JMO


I could see this.

Hell I bet they could even get Tomlin to say they mutually agreed to part ways.

The problem, of course, is Tomlin’s contract runs through 2020.

Are they really going to waste two more years of Ben’s career so they can say they’ve never fired anyone in 50+ years?

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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:00 pm 
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It would at first glance seem like that's the case jeems. Wait and see mode. My bad I thought Tomlin's contract was up in 2019.

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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:37 pm 
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It going to start in FA to see how the steelers attack FA.


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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:39 pm 
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steelmann58 wrote:
It going to start in FA to see how the steelers attack FA.


Makes sense

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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:24 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
Steelafan77 wrote:
My guess is that the Steelers allow Tomlin, in his final contract year to 'right the ship' so they aren't put in the situation to have to fire him after the 2019 season. I've posted it in other threads this is what I'm guessing is the approach. It's a win, win for the franchise. If Tomlin can turn it around the Steelers win and Tomlin keeps his job making releasing/firing him a non-factor. Tomlin gets a new contract next season and the Steelers keep their shinny not fired a coach in eons record relevant. If Tomlin allows this team to continually implode I think they simply not renew Tomlin and go with a new head coach. Perhaps even an inhouse candidate, ah hem..., Munchak. Still maintaining their haven't fired a head coach in eons record. JMO


I could see this.

Hell I bet they could even get Tomlin to say they mutually agreed to part ways.

The problem, of course, is Tomlin’s contract runs through 2020.

Are they really going to waste two more years of Ben’s career so they can say they’ve never fired anyone in 50+ years?


No, they're going to waste two more years of Ben's career cuz Mike Tomlin is un-fuckin'-touchable. All these scenarios you asshats paint of shots across the bow, seat getting warm, etc. It's all bullshit. Mike Tomlin will coach the Pittsburgh Steelers until he, and he alone, decides not to.

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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:28 pm 
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They're just opinionated comments swiss. No real reason to be referring to folks as asshats. We know Tomlin isn't going anywhere, yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:28 pm 
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No, they're going to waste two more years of Ben's career cuz Mike Tomlin is un-fuckin'-touchable. All these scenarios you asshats paint of shots across the bow, seat getting warm, etc. It's all bullshit. Mike Tomlin will coach the Pittsburgh Steelers until he, and he alone, decides not to.

Yep...everything else is just wishful thinking.
When Aviators walked off the field against the Bungs a couple weeks ago, A2 was probably there to greet him and shake his hand for a job well done.

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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:57 pm 
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Jobus Rum wrote:
Quote:
No, they're going to waste two more years of Ben's career cuz Mike Tomlin is un-fuckin'-touchable. All these scenarios you asshats paint of shots across the bow, seat getting warm, etc. It's all bullshit. Mike Tomlin will coach the Pittsburgh Steelers until he, and he alone, decides not to.

Yep...everything else is just wishful thinking.
When Aviators walked off the field against the Bungs a couple weeks ago, A2 was probably there to greet him and shake his hand for a job well done.


For me, it was when I heard that Art II had said he was so proud his team hung tough with the best team in the NFL following the loss to the Saints.

That’s when I knew the Standard was not The Standard anymore.

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