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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:32 pm 
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Again - why is it bad tactics?


Forget the stats. How bout is simply bad tactics because he chose the most important 3rd down conversion of the year to not only feature a back-up player but the back-up to the back-up.

If Bell had not gone full idiot on us then said player would have been the back-up to the back-up to the back-up that back-ups Bell. In other words 4th string. Or in other words, maybe not even on the roster if the team decided to only go with three RBs which is what they did.

And that isn’t even getting into the fact that said mediocre JAG back-up to the back-up has a history of fumbles.

If that isn’t reason enough for you to think it was bad tactics here is another. Ben Roethlisberger is our best and most important offensive player. After that I’d say AB and JuJu. After that Vance McDonald. After that I’d go with Samuels if the play is a pass or a run not up the guy into a stacked box.

Left out Connor as he did not play.

In no way is Ridley a better option than AB, JuJu, McDonald, Samuels, or shit even the cowboy Jesse James.

So in a must convert situation we have NONE of our best offensive weapons a chance to pick-up 2 yards and instead chose to hammer little used Ridley into a stacked box?

It was bad tactics period.

And one doesn’t need to analyze a bunch of data to know this.

Even Tomlin’s “gut” is fucking dumb...


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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:40 pm 
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Ridley up the gut vs a stacked box

Pure genius

We are lucky to have Tomlin

Long after he hangs up his cleats, Ben will author a tell all book about his Steelers career....

“Handcuffed by a Dipshit”

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Last edited by BarryFoster on Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:41 pm 
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Kellerman backs him up instantly and says Tomlin is the classic case of that when they were talking about a leadership guy with personality. Not an x's and o's guy where it comes to calling plays. Then he jumps to Harbaugh. The interaction comes a little after 6 mins into the video.


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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:42 pm 
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955876 wrote:
Quote:
Again - why is it bad tactics?


Forget the stats. How bout is simply bad tactics because he chose the most important 3rd down conversion of the year to not only feature a back-up player but the back-up to the back-up.

If Bell had not gone full idiot on us then said player would have been the back-up to the back-up to the back-up that back-ups Bell. In other words 4th string. Or in other words, maybe not even on the roster if the team decided to only go with three RBs which is what they did.

And that isn’t even getting into the fact that said mediocre JAG back-up to the back-up has a history of fumbles.

If that isn’t reason enough for you to think it was bad tactics here is another. Ben Roethlisberger is our best and most important offensive player. After that I’d say AB and JuJu. After that Vance McDonald. After that I’d go with Samuels if the play is a pass or a run not up the guy into a stacked box.

Left out Connor as he did not play.

In no way is Ridley a better option than AB, JuJu, McDonald, Samuels, or shit even the cowboy Jesse James.

So in a must convert situation we have NONE of our best offensive weapons a chance to pick-up 2 yards and instead chose to hammer little used Ridley into a stacked box?

It was bad tactics period.

And one doesn’t need to analyze a bunch of data to know this.

Even Tomlin’s “gut” is fucking dumb...


That's bad tactics as YOU choose to define them. If they have numbers which tell them the call is a good one, then you and I can disagree with the call while still endorsing the tactics. Look maybe you are right and Ridely is an awful decision (probably is) - I just have zero interest in acting like I KNOW its a bad decision when I'm not privy to the process that led to said decision.

The bolded is the EXACT statement that started the Baseball analytics boom. Value is value, period and getting the ball to your stars is a good standard but not a good standard for decision making in all situations.


Last edited by FromPittWithLove on Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:42 pm 
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stillthere wrote:
Kellerman backs him up instantly and says Tomlin is the classic case of that when they were talking about a leadership guy with personality. Not an x's and o's guy where it comes to calling plays. Then he jumps to Harbaugh. The interaction comes a little after 6 mins into the video.


I don't think there is anything in that statement that says Tomlin is overtly bad at those things, do you? Let me put it this way, I don't think Clark is saying that you are either Personality or X and O's. I think he is saying you must have personality as that is foremost for the job.


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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:57 pm 
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FromPittWithLove wrote:
stillthere wrote:
Kellerman backs him up instantly and says Tomlin is the classic case of that when they were talking about a leadership guy with personality. Not an x's and o's guy where it comes to calling plays. Then he jumps to Harbaugh. The interaction comes a little after 6 mins into the video.


I don't think there is anything in that statement that says Tomlin is overtly bad at those things, do you? Let me put it this way, I don't think Clark is saying that you are either Personality or X and O's. I think he is saying you must have personality as that is foremost for the job.


Not saying he is overtly bad at anything. I agree that his system has grown stale here. They were talking about McVay, Nagy, etc and talked about how they had an impact with the X's and O's and play calling then Clark brings up that Tomlin had a great personality and interview and got the job even though he wasn't one of the front runners and talked about the leadership (probably command of the room in the interview). They are IMO talking about the different angles in looking for a head coach. 1) being the x's and o's style coach and 2) being a leader of men style of coach that delegates to his coordinators (which is the set up we had here as most of the staff was already intact from Cowher). The Steelers needed a leader to take the void Cowher left and now they need a babysitter to make sure the team can play nice nice together.


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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:58 pm 
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Again thats exactly to the word what Ryan Clark said and he even prefaced it in the clip that i saw with "look, hes not only ex head coach, Mike is my friend..and then went on to say he was not an Xs and Os coach he was brought in for his personality and character.

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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:59 pm 
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Gotcha. My own responses are rooted in my skepticism that Ryan Clark ever said Mike Tomlin was overtly bad at X and O's. I don't disagree that change is needed, but I am somewhat leery that the grass won't be greener on the other side.


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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:00 pm 
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GreekSteel wrote:
Again thats exactly to the word what Ryan Clark said and he even prefaced it in the clip that i saw with "look, hes not only ex head coach, Mike is my friend..and then went on to say he was not an Xs and Os coach he was brought in for his personality and character.


Fine. How you could possibly tie your assertion that Mike Tomlin is football dumb to what Ryan Clark said is beyond me.

He also never says hes not an X and Os guy - he simply said he was hired for his personality. Isn't it possible MT is just fine at X and Os (i.e. not football dumb) and his personality was viewed to be extraordinary? Pretty sure that is what Clark is saying.


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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:07 pm 
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Obviously wrote:
How the fuck is Danny Smith still employed? Answer that one, B2B!

You got me.

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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:09 pm 
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Nick79 wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
...get away from their strategy of getting into shortening the game mode with any 2nd half lead...


This is their biggest flaw philosophically. To me, in 2019 NFL football, if I'm up 16 in the 3rd quarter, I'm desperate for another TD- fast, who cares about the clock, because I feel like UP 16 WE ARE BEHIND! So you never care about the clock, nothing matters but more points ! Think about it, teams can score 2 TDs really fast today, a two score lead is TINY, not something you should feel comfortable to sit on.



This is DEAD ON...... but this IS NOT Tomlins philosophy. He plays to run clock and win field position when they are up merely 7 in the second half. This is a FLAWED philosophy in today’s NFL, especially when your teams strength is on offense. I don’t expect this to change soon, if ever.


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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:32 pm 
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Quote:
That's bad tactics as YOU choose to define them.


Oh it isn’t just how I choose to define them. Myself, a large majority of the posters at this site, AND Tony Romo all thought it was bad tactics as well. Romo might know a thing or two about the game you think?

Romo said before the snap “I dont like this formation at all”

I was saying it from my couch BEFORE the snap as well.

You could tell by formation that a vanilla plunge up the gut was coming.

And they chose to do it with a player that’s gotten fewer snaps this year (by far) than any of the other options. Not only that, Ridley has always been a JAG. AB isn’t a jag. JuJu isn’t a jag.

McDonald isn’t a jag.

In big time moments you get the ball to your big time players.

So let’s not play this lame “coach knows best” nonsense because this coach doesn’t know best. The results of the play alone show it was a poor call.

Many (including Romo) knee it was a poor call BEFORE the play was even ran.

You are Steve Kerr. There is time for one more shot after the inbound. You running a play that gets the ball to Steph Currie or Kevin Durant or are you going to give it to some 3rd string turd coming off the bench?

If that ball goes anywhere else Kerr would get blasted. No need to analyze data.

Throw it to AB. Throw it to JuJu or to Vance. Essentially you run one of your best 2 pt. conversion plays there.

Up the gut to your little used 3rd string JAG back-up isn’t that play.


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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:40 pm 
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955876 wrote:
Quote:
That's bad tactics as YOU choose to define them.


Well, me, a large majority of the posters at this site, AND Tony Romo all thought it was bad tactics.

Romo said before the snap “I dont like this formation at all”

I was saying it from my couch BEFORE the snap as well.

You could tell by formation that a vanilla plunge up the gut was coming.

And they chose to do it with a player that’s gotten fewer snaps this year (by far) than any of the other options. Not only that, Ridley has always been a JAG. AB isn’t a jag. JuJu isn’t a jag.

McDonald isn’t a jag.

In big time moments you get the ball to your big time players.

So let’s not play this lame “coach knows best” nonsense because this coach doesn’t know best. The results of the play alone show it was a poor call.

Many (including Romo) knee it was a poor call BEFORE the play was even ran.

You are Steve Kerr. There is time for one more shot after the inbound. You running a play that gets the ball to Steph Currie or Kevin Durant or are you going to give it to some 3rd string turd coming off the bench?

If that ball goes anywhere else Kerr would get blasted. No need to analyze data.

Throw it to AB. Throw it to JuJu or to Vance. Essentially you run one of your best 2 pt. conversion plays there.

Up the gut to your little used 3rd string JAG back-up isn’t that play.


Tells me not to appeal to the authority of coaches (which I didn't do) but starts the post by telling me how all the posters and Tony Romo knew it was a bad call. Is this real life?

Look, I know this is a message board and we are supposed to argue past one another, name call a little, and generally disagree until the universe ends. You think its a bad play call and not once have I said its not. I'm simply saying I like to live my life by the data before I label anything bad or good. I don't have the time or interest to do the work so I'mjust not willing to claim its good or bad.

I don't know your background, but I coached collegiately for a number of years (and made enough bad decisions that people would have rode me out town at the first chance). There were so many times I thought a decision (by my own HC or another) was beyond stupid only to realize the logic was pretty good. Taught me to sometimes to be a bit more generous when evaluating other people's decision making without the full picture. Again, I know this is the internet and that's not fun, so just bear with me.


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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:51 pm 
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Quote:
Look, I know this is a message board and we are supposed to argue past one another, name call a little, and generally disagree until the universe ends. You think its a bad play call and not once have I said its not. I'm simply saying I like to live my life by the data before I label anything bad or good. I don't know your background, but I coached collegiately for a number of years (and made enough bad decisions that people woudl have rode me out town at the first chance). There were so many times I thought a decision was beyond stupid only to realize the logic was pretty good. Taught me to sometimes to be a bit more generous when evaluating other people's decision making without the full picture. Again, I know this is the internet and that's not fun, so just bear with me.



I totally agree with all of this.

I just disagree there is any “data” anywhere that is going to show giving the ball to the back-up to the back-up was a smart call. Particularly in a game where the pass had been working so well.

We don’t have a 2point conversion play they could have used there? It was two yards.

Reality is that it was an extremely risk adverse call. Tight situation and Tomlin’s sphincter tightened up. Ran a very cautious play.


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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:54 pm 
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The reality is A LOT of teams can say they were a "few plays" and/or a "few calls" away from 3-4 more wins. A lot.

And that's going to tend to be more true, also, of teams that have bad gameplans and bad coaching. Despite everything else, you can 100% the CLE tie, the OAK loss and probably the SD loss on Tomlin.

In spite of all the other bullshit, I'd say we were a decent coach away from at least 11 wins. Now I can't fix/change all 53 players.....but I can get a new HC.

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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:05 pm 
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FromPittWithLove wrote:
I'm rolling my eyes because every.single.coach. thinks you win by execution.

Newsflash, there's only so much deception/strategizing you can do when you literally put your gameplan on film every week. Do you think Coach's come up with entirely new plays every week? They don't, They might tweak the packages they use, add a new wrinkle to a play, but your playbook doesn't change much. This whole sport is about execution. Have you heard Bill Bellichick's mantra? "Just Do Your Job".

Care to share that quote? Pretty sure Ryan Clark calling Mike Tomlin football dumb would be pretty big headlines.


Hey coach :) I'm going to jump in here.

Coaching philosophy is a major factor in what plays are chosen to execute.

Glad you are posting, btw.


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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:19 pm 
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fortythree wrote:
Accidentally listened to The Fan and Ed was on with Ron Cook and Joe Starkey and said he's pretty sure the team is done making coaching changes and says that he thinks they're gonna be conservative (no shit) because they feel they were a few plays away from being a 12-4 team.

So...fuck?


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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:58 pm 
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BAD season next year bye to the Three Amigos


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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:29 pm 
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Per @GerryDulac - Tomlin has dispatched Butler and his entire coaching staff to the Senior Bowl, which begins next week in Mobile, Ala. — an indication he will stand pat with his assistants and not make any more moves.

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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:21 am 
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GreekSteel wrote:
Quote:
Per @GerryDulac - Tomlin has dispatched Butler and his entire coaching staff to the Senior Bowl, which begins next week in Mobile, Ala. — an indication he will stand pat with his assistants and not make any more moves.


And Boom!! goes the dynamite.


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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:52 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Obviously wrote:
How the fuck is Danny Smith still employed? Answer that one, B2B!

You got me.


I told you I saw Bouchette's chat from the other day, and his read is the Steelers think Danny Smith is a good coach who didn't have the players.

If true, it's up to Tomlin/Colbert to find him some and up to Tomlin to stop relying on the same old stiffs like DHB and put fresh blood in there.

I don't know to what degree this is what the problems were, though. I know nothing about proper coaching of STs.

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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:16 pm 
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FromPittWithLove wrote:
I'm simply saying I like to live my life by the data before I label anything bad or good. I don't have the time or interest to do the work so I'mjust not willing to claim its good or bad.

I don't know your background, but I coached collegiately for a number of years (and made enough bad decisions that people would have rode me out town at the first chance). There were so many times I thought a decision (by my own HC or another) was beyond stupid only to realize the logic was pretty good. Taught me to sometimes to be a bit more generous when evaluating other people's decision making without the full picture. Again, I know this is the internet and that's not fun, so just bear with me.
This. Knee jerk reactions based on confirmation bias. There are so many moving parts, and parts that move behind the scenes that I'm not sure anybody really knows jack shit about "why" something happens. And you can be sure Tomlin won't be 100% honest in a presser - thus the well developed line of bullshit. Belichick says less. Maybe Tomlin should not say anything, take all responsibility for failures - regardless - compliment those responsible for successes, and leave the podium. How do you think THAT would go over with this fanbase?

IIRC, Tolmlin came into the interview with a stack of binders of x's and o's, explained his philosophy with examples of schemes, desired match ups, strategy and tactics, etc. about the existing roster. The brain part is what supposedly influenced the rooney's to hire him along with personality and leadership.

I also remember what ST looked like before Danny Smith. It was worse. I haven't studied his impact closely, but if you want to fire Smith based on stats alone, why do you want to fire Tomlin ignoring his stats?

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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:27 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
FromPittWithLove wrote:
I'm simply saying I like to live my life by the data before I label anything bad or good. I don't have the time or interest to do the work so I'mjust not willing to claim its good or bad.

I don't know your background, but I coached collegiately for a number of years (and made enough bad decisions that people would have rode me out town at the first chance). There were so many times I thought a decision (by my own HC or another) was beyond stupid only to realize the logic was pretty good. Taught me to sometimes to be a bit more generous when evaluating other people's decision making without the full picture. Again, I know this is the internet and that's not fun, so just bear with me.
This. Knee jerk reactions based on confirmation bias. There are so many moving parts, and parts that move behind the scenes that I'm not sure anybody really knows jack shit about "why" something happens. And you can be sure Tomlin won't be 100% honest in a presser - thus the well developed line of bullshit. Belichick says less. Maybe Tomlin should not say anything, take all responsibility for failures - regardless - compliment those responsible for successes, and leave the podium. How do you think THAT would go over with this fanbase?

IIRC, Tolmlin came into the interview with a stack of binders of x's and o's, explained his philosophy with examples of schemes, desired match ups, strategy and tactics, etc. about the existing roster. The brain part is what supposedly influenced the rooney's to hire him along with personality and leadership.

I also remember what ST looked like before Danny Smith. It was worse. I haven't studied his impact closely, but if you want to fire Smith based on stats alone, why do you want to fire Tomlin ignoring his stats?


Everybody lives their life according to confirmation bias. Everyone employs reason to buttress what they already believe.

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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:35 pm 
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I’m preparing myself for some lean years ahead.

Like Swiss, I would prefer the Steelers keep AB and AB somehow morphs into a team player. Since that is unlikely, I’m preparig myself for a trade.

They have to get significant value in return. Absent that, I will drive to Rooney, Tomlin and Colbert’s homes and take a shit on their doorsteps.

We are at a crossroads as fans, as the Steelers are as a franchise.

This offseason will be key to how I view the future of the franchise. I hope they make solid moves and improve the D and somehow replace AB with either a highly rated rookie WR or FA.

The fact Tomlin and Butler appear to be safe boggles my mind. And Danny Smiff.

What a Fucking shitshow the Steelers have become.

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 Post subject: Re: Bouchette On The Fan: Steelers Likely Done Making Change
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:51 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Obviously wrote:
How the fuck is Danny Smith still employed? Answer that one, B2B!

You got me.


I told you I saw Bouchette's chat from the other day, and his read is the Steelers think Danny Smith is a good coach who didn't have the players.

If true, it's up to Tomlin/Colbert to find him some and up to Tomlin to stop relying on the same old stiffs like DHB and put fresh blood in there.

I don't know to what degree this is what the problems were, though. I know nothing about proper coaching of STs.

They kept specific players with limited defense/offense upside for use on STs. IOW, Danny Smith gets the last few roster spots. Tyler Matakevich over Matthew Thomas. DHB over Damoun Patterson. Chickillo over Ola. I'm sure he wanted Switzer as a returner. He got the kicker and punter he wanted. How many more primarily ST players does he want?

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