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 Post subject: Re: The Lost Decade
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:06 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
For reference, teams with most playoff wins since last PIT SB win:
NE 13-7 (2-2 SB) Brady
GB 9-7 (1-0) Rodgers
SEA 9-5 (1-1) Wilson
BAL 8-4 (1-0) Flacco
DEN 6-4 (1-1) Peyton Manning
NO 6-4 (1-0) Brees
PIT 5-6 (0-1) Roethlisberger
IND 5-5 (0-1) Peyton Manning
SF 5-3 (0-1) Kaepernick

Couple of observations: QB matters most, outlier great defense helps. The teams who outperformed Ben & Steelers in this time frame also had great QBs or good QBs with truly great defenses. Not to say they couldn't have or shouldn't have performed better but having to get through Brady and Manning probably not going to be more successful than .500, even in the best-case scenario. The disappointment is not getting to face Manning or Brady more often, for sure... but you could argue injuries (and the contigency plans for dealing with them) played a huge part in this.


I’d say “LACK of contingency plans for dealing with injuries”.

2014 was the most grevious sin with this...Steelers chased Blount away by insisting on running Bell’s wheels off...then waited until Bell got injured to even think about a competent back-up for him.

And Tomlin hasn’t really learned- given oodles of time to think about how to replace Shazier...they come up with Bostic?


I'm not gonna give Tomlin shit for not replacing Shazier- options were limited

But Tomlin was determined to replicate his RB usage errors. Conner was getting mega carries/touches until he got brained. This was again an NFL player who never played a full season before, yet they decide to run his wheels off

Thank Christ Samuels performed like he did vs NE, but they only revealed his skill with a decent workload. Tomlin talks about "easing in" to games, yet doesn't want to "ease in" his players.

What a fuckstick

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 Post subject: Re: The Lost Decade
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:07 pm 
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To me, the most grievous sin was not completely rebuilding the D after 2012. They should have fired Lebeau, hired a bright young defensive mind, cut or traded or encouraged the older guys to leave, and just freaking started over. Sure, it would have meant a down year or two, but hanging on there was bad.

So, what did they do? They fired Bruce Arians. Of course.

And, then there was the 2013 draft, which was nearly a complete disaster on the defensive side:

Jarvis Jones
Shamarko Thomas
Terry Hawthorne
Vince Williams
Nic Williams

Art Rooney 2, Kevin Colbert, the entire scouting staff, Mike Tomlin, & Dick Lebeau ALL share in this defensive side failure to draft playmakers other than Shazier and perhaps Watt/Heyward.

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 Post subject: Re: The Lost Decade
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:45 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
To me, the most grievous sin was not completely rebuilding the D after 2012. They should have fired Lebeau, hired a bright young defensive mind, cut or traded or encouraged the older guys to leave, and just freaking started over. Sure, it would have meant a down year or two, but hanging on there was bad.

So, what did they do? They fired Bruce Arians. Of course.

And, then there was the 2013 draft, which was nearly a complete disaster on the defensive side:

Jarvis Jones
Shamarko Thomas
Terry Hawthorne
Vince Williams
Nic Williams

Art Rooney 2, Kevin Colbert, the entire scouting staff, Mike Tomlin, & Dick Lebeau ALL share in this defensive side failure to draft playmakers other than Shazier and perhaps Watt/Heyward.


Can't blame them for trying to not radically change the defense in 2012, B2B. By that point, they had gone 20 consecutive years without a major rebuild, just retooling and continuity. Very few people are visionary enough to see inflection points when they are actually happening.

Maybe now they see, however, that after 2010 the game fundamentally changed...and they didn't change with it.

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 Post subject: Re: The Lost Decade
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:51 pm 
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Donnie Brasco wrote:
I'm not gonna give Tomlin shit for not replacing Shazier- options were limited

But Tomlin was determined to replicate his RB usage errors. Conner was getting mega carries/touches until he got brained. This was again an NFL player who never played a full season before, yet they decide to run his wheels off

Thank Christ Samuels performed like he did vs NE, but they only revealed his skill with a decent workload. Tomlin talks about "easing in" to games, yet doesn't want to "ease in" his players.

What a fuckstick


Darius Leonard was there for the taking...they went with Edmunds who had a later round draft grade.

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 Post subject: Re: The Lost Decade
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:54 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
Donnie Brasco wrote:
I'm not gonna give Tomlin shit for not replacing Shazier- options were limited

But Tomlin was determined to replicate his RB usage errors. Conner was getting mega carries/touches until he got brained. This was again an NFL player who never played a full season before, yet they decide to run his wheels off

Thank Christ Samuels performed like he did vs NE, but they only revealed his skill with a decent workload. Tomlin talks about "easing in" to games, yet doesn't want to "ease in" his players.

What a fuckstick


Darius Leonard was there for the taking...they went with Edmunds who had a later round draft grade.


We don't know what Leonard or Edmunds will be yet- each has 1 year on tape.
If Edmunds ends up sucking big time, ok get the torches. But I can't add this to his fuck up resume just yet

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 Post subject: Re: The Lost Decade
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:15 pm 
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The more I read in this thread and others, the more I see people falling into the "not Tomlin's fault" trap.

There are always going to be flaws - poor draft picks, injuries, bad luck, less than stellar assistant coaches, etc.

Someone has to manage through these things. That someone is the HC.

It's straight forward. The more chaos that an organization experiences, the more rock steady the leader needs to be. The NFL is a chaotic business. The Steelers have had their share. Unfortunately they have had an unsteady hand at the wheel.

Fire Tomlin

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 Post subject: Re: The Lost Decade
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:24 pm 
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Lifelongsteel wrote:
The more I read in this thread and others, the more I see people falling into the "not Tomlin's fault" trap.

There are always going to be flaws - poor draft picks, injuries, bad luck, less than stellar assistant coaches, etc.

Someone has to manage through these things. That someone is the HC.

It's straight forward. The more chaos that an organization experiences, the more rock steady the leader needs to be. The NFL is a chaotic business. The Steelers have had their share. Unfortunately they have had an unsteady hand at the wheel.

Fire Tomlin

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 Post subject: Re: The Lost Decade
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:49 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
Donnie Brasco wrote:
I'm not gonna give Tomlin shit for not replacing Shazier- options were limited

But Tomlin was determined to replicate his RB usage errors. Conner was getting mega carries/touches until he got brained. This was again an NFL player who never played a full season before, yet they decide to run his wheels off

Thank Christ Samuels performed like he did vs NE, but they only revealed his skill with a decent workload. Tomlin talks about "easing in" to games, yet doesn't want to "ease in" his players.

What a fuckstick


Darius Leonard was there for the taking...they went with Edmunds who had a later round draft grade.


Yet another reason to worry when people get giddy over trading Brown for draft picks.

More picks just gives these dumbfucks more leeway to take a gamble IMO.

Sure, I want the extra picks too. However, I have zero faith in Tombert to do anything more with them Han they have recently which is not good.


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 Post subject: Re: The Lost Decade
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:08 pm 
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ALL we need to know to support firing this stupid fuck is his decision to keep his HOF QB on the sideline in a one-score game.

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 Post subject: Re: The Lost Decade
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:12 pm 
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swissvale72 wrote:
ALL we need to know to support firing this stupid fuck is his decision to keep his HOF QB on the sideline in a one-score game.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: The Lost Decade
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:26 pm 
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swissvale72 wrote:
ALL we need to know to support firing this stupid fuck is his decision to keep his HOF QB on the sideline in a one-score game.


Mike Tomlin trying to tiptoe through the tulips with a no experience backup. What a fucking jackass.


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 Post subject: Re: The Lost Decade
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:35 pm 
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Their back up choices at key positions has been pretty poor


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 Post subject: Re: The Lost Decade
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:09 pm 
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Gonzo wrote:
Their back up choices at key positions has been pretty poor


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 Post subject: Re: The Lost Decade
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:15 pm 
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Obviously wrote:
Gonzo wrote:
Their back up choices at key positions has been pretty poor


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 Post subject: Re: The Lost Decade
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:47 pm 
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Fuck Tomlin.

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 Post subject: Re: The Lost Decade
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:26 am 
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Not going to argue about the micro play by play or even game by game decisions, but I think you could make an argument that those teams that outperformed the Steelers over the past 8-9 years had better teams for some of that stretch. In other words, I think the Steelers talent level, especially on defense, is overestimated and has been for some time. OL has two 1st round studs, but it also was a host of nobodies coached up. Receiving has AB and JuJu... but pretty much everybody else has been a headcase or a JAG. Even Bell and AB, their two otherworldy studs, are headcases who damaged the locker room.

IOW, they've had some elite star players: Ben, AB, Bell, Pouncey, Decastro, Shazier, Haden, Heyward, perhaps Watt... but the other guys on this roster haven't been exactly filled with rising talent in that time period. I'm starting to come to FC's position that personnel and how they've managed not just draft but FA and development... that's the issue that stares at us, painfully revelaed once you lose Worilds, Bryant, Bell, & AB to headcaseness and Shazier to injury.

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 Post subject: Re: The Lost Decade
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:28 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
IOW, they've had some elite star players: Ben, AB, Bell, Pouncey, Decastro, Shazier, Haden, Heyward, perhaps Watt... but the other guys on this roster haven't been exactly filled with rising talent in that time period. I'm starting to come to FC's position that personnel and how they've managed not just draft but FA and development... that's the issue that stares at us, painfully revelaed once you lose Worilds, Bryant, Bell, & AB to headcaseness and Shazier to injury.


Add in a refusal to go away from playing games close to the vest when that's not the strong suit of the personnel you do have and I'll agree with you.

Because the games we lost were all more winnable if the game management philosophy changed (well maybe except the Denver game).

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 Post subject: Re: The Lost Decade
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:32 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
IOW, they've had some elite star players: Ben, AB, Bell, Pouncey, Decastro, Shazier, Haden, Heyward, perhaps Watt... but the other guys on this roster haven't been exactly filled with rising talent in that time period. I'm starting to come to FC's position that personnel and how they've managed not just draft but FA and development... that's the issue that stares at us, painfully revelaed once you lose Worilds, Bryant, Bell, & AB to headcaseness and Shazier to injury.


Add in a refusal to go away from playing games close to the vest when that's not the strong suit of the personnel you do have and I'll agree with you.

Because the games we lost were all more winnable if the game management philosophy changed (well maybe except the Denver game).


I just rewatched the SD game - I think I might add that as well. What a confluence of bad luck. I know a lot was made of Keenan Allen on LBs - but honestly not why they lost. That bogus holding call on Ramon and the punt return - absolute killers.


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 Post subject: Re: The Lost Decade
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:41 pm 
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FromPittWithLove wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
IOW, they've had some elite star players: Ben, AB, Bell, Pouncey, Decastro, Shazier, Haden, Heyward, perhaps Watt... but the other guys on this roster haven't been exactly filled with rising talent in that time period. I'm starting to come to FC's position that personnel and how they've managed not just draft but FA and development... that's the issue that stares at us, painfully revelaed once you lose Worilds, Bryant, Bell, & AB to headcaseness and Shazier to injury.


Add in a refusal to go away from playing games close to the vest when that's not the strong suit of the personnel you do have and I'll agree with you.

Because the games we lost were all more winnable if the game management philosophy changed (well maybe except the Denver game).


I just rewatched the SD game - I think I might add that as well. What a confluence of bad luck. I know a lot was made of Keenan Allen on LBs - but honestly not why they lost. That bogus holding call on Ramon and the punt return - absolute killers.


And fucking Sean Davis' boneheaded play.

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 Post subject: Re: The Lost Decade
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:04 pm 
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FromPittWithLove wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
IOW, they've had some elite star players: Ben, AB, Bell, Pouncey, Decastro, Shazier, Haden, Heyward, perhaps Watt... but the other guys on this roster haven't been exactly filled with rising talent in that time period. I'm starting to come to FC's position that personnel and how they've managed not just draft but FA and development... that's the issue that stares at us, painfully revelaed once you lose Worilds, Bryant, Bell, & AB to headcaseness and Shazier to injury.


Add in a refusal to go away from playing games close to the vest when that's not the strong suit of the personnel you do have and I'll agree with you.

Because the games we lost were all more winnable if the game management philosophy changed (well maybe except the Denver game).


I just rewatched the SD game - I think I might add that as well. What a confluence of bad luck. I know a lot was made of Keenan Allen on LBs - but honestly not why they lost. That bogus holding call on Ramon and the punt return - absolute killers.


Tomlin was ready to go conservative with the offense for the rest of the game after getting a 16 point halftime lead which he did to start the 3rd quarter. Chargers scoring a TD on their 1st drive of the 2nd half changed that.

Mike Tomlin = a college basketball HC that cost his team the NCAA championship game when he ordered his team to slow down the offense and work on the clock with a 10 point lead, instead of keeping the foot on the gas and burying the opponent, running them out of the gym like they could and should have.

Mike Tomlin is among the very worst coaches I have ever seen in sports, for this roster as currently constructed, in the current era of the nfl.


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 Post subject: Re: The Lost Decade
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:13 pm 
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Gonzo wrote:
Their back up choices at key positions has been pretty poor


Roster composition has long been yet another of Tomlin’s many warts.

In fact, I used to bitch about his issues there while I was still a Tomlin supporter.

Guy simply fails time and again to think ahead or have contingency plans for those “what if’s” that will almost always appear at some point over the course of a season.

It’s either laziness, arrogance, or just a lack of cognitive ability to look ahead and contingency plan.


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 Post subject: Re: The Lost Decade
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:18 pm 
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955876 wrote:
Gonzo wrote:
Their back up choices at key positions has been pretty poor


Roster composition has long been yet another of Tomlin’s many warts.

In fact, I used to bitch about his issues there while I was still a Tomlin supporter.

Guy simply fails time and again to think ahead or have contingency plans for those “what if’s” that will almost always appear at some point over the course of a season.

It’s either laziness, arrogance, or just a lack of cognitive ability to look ahead and contingency plan.


You know this falls to the FO, right?


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 Post subject: Re: The Lost Decade
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:04 pm 
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And you are aware that the HC is a large part of that equation right?

Or are you just another Tomlin ball washer apologist that thinks he is but a victim here?

Poor Mikey T. If only his front office did a better job finding players for him.

Is it the FO forcing oh let’s see, DHB on Tomlin year after year?

He’d sure like to cut him but that dang FO just keeps meddling right?


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 Post subject: Re: The Lost Decade
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:09 pm 
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955876 wrote:
And you are aware that the HC is a large part of that equation right?

Or are you just another Tomlin ball washer apologist that thinks he is but a victim here?

Poor Mikey T. If only his front office did a better job finding players for him.

Is it the FO forcing oh let’s see, DHB on Tomlin year after year?

He’d sure like to cut him but that dang FO just keeps meddling right?


I said none of those things. I'm fine if they fire him or not. I think he's a better coach than many around here but I think he clearly has his faults. I don't however ascribe every possible problem of this team to him.

I'm sure Tomlin has some pull on roster construction, but the majority of that blame falls squarely on the FO. They do the majority of the work when it comes to scouting FAs, draft picks, and day to day roster construction. Funny how you immediately place all the blame for their job on Tomlin - are you some sort of Tomlin hater who thinks he is the only problem here?

Your whole contingency plan tirade is EXACTLY the job of the FO prior to and during the season. If you have access to Amazon Prime, watch All or Nothing on the Cardinals, Steve Keim basically spells out how his job as GM is to give his HC depth and plan for injuries.

EDIT: Maybe I'm misreading some of your initial commentary. If you are saying Tomlin does a poor job of evaluating the best 53 man roster - then I'm not sure I can argue with you but I'm not sure you are right either. I've often thought, based on just lazy watching of preseason, that they tend to keep the best of the talent.


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 Post subject: Re: The Lost Decade
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:18 pm 
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You are mixing up offseason player acquisition, scouting, draft, etc with the actual cutdown to the 53.

Do you really believe that the minority owner, or Dunce, or Colbert is telling Tomlin he has to keep a guy like DHB employed year after tear after year?

That that’s not Tomlin’s decision that he makes at cut-down time?

Please.

And I never said others weren’t a problem as well. I think Dunce is a big part of the problem at present. Can’t fire him though.

I wouldn’t shed a tear if Colbert were sent packing either.

But NOBODY has a bigger hand in this team’s shit sandwhich as does Mike Tomlin.

He is a problem before, during, and after games.

That can’t be said for the others.


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