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 Post subject: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:22 pm 
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Finally...a quantifiable metric to silence forever the long-held arguments of who is better than Mike Tomlin!

Just kidding, now we can not only argue about the coaches themselves, but also the mathematical process by which they are evaluated.
Pimped by "The Godfather" Gil Brandt.

https://www.headcoachranking.com/hcr/total-rank/?season=2018

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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:33 pm 
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He's farther down that list than I thought he would be to be honest. Same applies for the 2017 rating.

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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:36 pm 
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Tied for 10th seems pretty fair, particularly if you shift Bowles above him. You don't tie the Browns and get the shit kicked out of you at home by the Raisins without repercussions.


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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:10 pm 
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Is that list a joke?

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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:23 pm 
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Ice wrote:
Tied for 10th seems pretty fair, particularly if you shift Bowles above him. You don't tie the Browns and get the shit kicked out of you at home by the Raisins without repercussions.

It's much too subjective a process... but as a stock report kind of thing, sure.

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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:40 pm 
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Granted, the measuring stick for coaches is wins and losses. And it looks as if this list is primarily that. I would like to see a more comprehensive metric including intangibles. Tomlin should simply be lower in my opinion. He has underperformed and squandered opportunities that other coaches haven't had. Doing less with more should be factored in somehow.

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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:46 pm 
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7forSteel wrote:
Granted, the measuring stick for coaches is wins and losses. And it looks as if this list is primarily that. I would like to see a more comprehensive metric including intangibles. Tomlin should simply be lower in my opinion. He has underperformed and squandered opportunities that other coaches haven't had. Doing less with more should be factored in somehow.

:lol: haha If he wins, he was supposed to, and if he loses, he sucks, and if he wins but not enough, then he does less with more. Got it.

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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:39 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
7forSteel wrote:
Granted, the measuring stick for coaches is wins and losses. And it looks as if this list is primarily that. I would like to see a more comprehensive metric including intangibles. Tomlin should simply be lower in my opinion. He has underperformed and squandered opportunities that other coaches haven't had. Doing less with more should be factored in somehow.

:lol: haha If he wins, he was supposed to, and if he loses, he sucks, and if he wins but not enough, then he does less with more. Got it.


Lets do postseason then.... :P


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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:11 pm 
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It is simple in my book.

He is number 2.

Maybe Pederson and McVay with a few more years and more than 1 SB.

Anyone else you put on the list has the same pros and cons as MT.

Anything else and folks are not being serious.

Win Loss record
Trend up at the end of the year.
Playoffs consistently.
Super Bowl victories and appearances.

Do I want to see Tomlin retire? Yes. Am I proud to have him as a coach of my favorite team.? Yes

I do think the Penguins example of getting rid of Bylsma is legit and in play.

Different sport and different organizations and both the PS FO and MT have earned their right to do as they see fit.


Last edited by LakecrestSteeler on Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:12 pm 
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7forSteel wrote:
Granted, the measuring stick for coaches is wins and losses. And it looks as if this list is primarily that.


No, this list is nothing like that. In fact, it looks like like a PFF for coaches, complete with multiple and somewhat obfuscated metrics (https://www.headcoachranking.com/hcr/hcr-ranking/).
All of these coaches are profiled each year and comments are made about their strengths and weaknesses.
They also do special weekly features on interesting/crucial in-game coaching decisions and break them down.

Seems a bit lightweight at the moment, and could use less old-school beat guys, and more ex-coaches or assistants IMO, but its interesting in how comprehensive it tries to be.

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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:17 pm 
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7forSteel wrote:
Doing less with more should be factored in somehow.


That would be the most argumentative task ever.

MT has done less with more!
No he hasn’t he has more because he has done so much!
No he hasn’t he’s done so little with so much!
No he hasn’t he has converted mediocre to greatness! Look at AB!
No he hasn’t.........


It would go on and on and on and on! It would be the Cowher’s players argument on steroids.


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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:25 pm 
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Okay, let's play:
2017-18 Steelers were a paper favorite over the Jags, but let's not forget that the Jags kicked the Steelers' asses up and down the field earlier in the year and our defense not only had a secondary hanging on by its fingernails, it had a giant ass hole with the departure of Shazier and the lack of trust (for who knows what reason) in LJ Fort. They lost by one score in a game where they got their asses handed to them on defense.

2016-2017 1. Crushed the Dolphins at home. 2. Outlasted the Chiefs on the road, in a very tough place to play. 3. Offense was built around Le'Veon Bell, for better or worse and he got hurt, again, at the end of the year. No Bell, no Gronk evens out... but Steelers were down to Coates, Cobi Hamilton, and Eli Rogers as their #2-3-4 WR. Steelers lost to a better team in NE.

2015-16 1. Team has win for the ages in Cincy. Even without Burfict or Pacman penalties, AB remains healthy for the last couple of plays and chances are Boswell is getting a GW kick opportunity. 2. No Bell, again, no AB. On the road in a tough place to play, vs HOF QB. Steelers still had a chance to win until late fumble.

2014-15 No Bell, again. Terrible plan of replacing Bell. Lost to a team they were even with before Bell went out, but still chalk it up to a loss that didn't have to happen.

2011-12 Redman had a nice day but Wallace couldn't track the ball or catch it and as a result, Ben struggled. However, they did get to overtime in Denver, despite not having the best game. The defensive meltdown, though, was spectacular.

2010-11 1. great comeback win vs the Ravens 2. gut-check win late vs Jets 3. SB mistakes put us in a hole early, but it sure appeared the Steelers were at least on their way to the lead when Kemoateu & co screwed the pooch and Mendenhall fumbled. I think that was a pretty good run for a team that didn't have Ben for the first quarter of the season, gave away Santonio, had a second year and mostly clueless Mike Wallace and two rookie WRs, one of whom got injured for the year vs the Jets. May have been Tomlin's best season/postseason, coaching-wise.

2008-09 1. Defense and STs ruled vs SD 2. Team win vs Ravens, including a legendary defense making legendary type plays at the end. 3. Defense was tremendous in first half, offense pulled it out at the end in spectacular fashion, despite the worst SB-winning OL in NFL history (and I exaggerate not).

2007-08 1. down to 3rd string LT, Steelers go to short passing gameplan-- a rarity for Ben up to that point. Didn't always go perfectly, but against a familiar opponent, had the lead at the end of the game, until absolutely robbed on a QB scramble with blatant holding no-call.

2011-12 and 2014-15 are definitely below-the-line... but I don't honestly think either team was good enough to win it all. 15-16 is a different story if Bell and AB remained healthy. Last year if Shazier doesn't almost die, and if JJ TD gets called a TD... had a pretty solid chance as well. You can definitely fault the HC and GM for not having a better contingency plan for injuries... but the void of AB or Bell or AB & Bell or Shazier or 2 LTs in 5 out of 15 postseason games (all of which they lost)... they were 8-2 in the other games, including the SB loss to a HOF QB en fuego. Really the Tebow loss is the worst since the Tomlin era started.

Injuries and the contingency plans for replacing those players are the real downfall of this era's Steelers.

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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:00 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Okay, let's play:
2017-18 Steelers were a paper favorite over the Jags, but let's not forget that the Jags kicked the Steelers' asses up and down the field earlier in the year and our defense not only had a secondary hanging on by its fingernails, it had a giant ass hole with the departure of Shazier and the lack of trust (for who knows what reason) in LJ Fort. They lost by one score in a game where they got their asses handed to them on defense.

2016-2017 1. Crushed the Dolphins at home. 2. Outlasted the Chiefs on the road, in a very tough place to play. 3. Offense was built around Le'Veon Bell, for better or worse and he got hurt, again, at the end of the year. No Bell, no Gronk evens out... but Steelers were down to Coates, Cobi Hamilton, and Eli Rogers as their #2-3-4 WR. Steelers lost to a better team in NE.

2015-16 1. Team has win for the ages in Cincy. Even without Burfict or Pacman penalties, AB remains healthy for the last couple of plays and chances are Boswell is getting a GW kick opportunity. 2. No Bell, again, no AB. On the road in a tough place to play, vs HOF QB. Steelers still had a chance to win until late fumble.

2014-15 No Bell, again. Terrible plan of replacing Bell. Lost to a team they were even with before Bell went out, but still chalk it up to a loss that didn't have to happen.

2011-12 Redman had a nice day but Wallace couldn't track the ball or catch it and as a result, Ben struggled. However, they did get to overtime in Denver, despite not having the best game. The defensive meltdown, though, was spectacular.

2010-11 1. great comeback win vs the Ravens 2. gut-check win late vs Jets 3. SB mistakes put us in a hole early, but it sure appeared the Steelers were at least on their way to the lead when Kemoateu & co screwed the pooch and Mendenhall fumbled. I think that was a pretty good run for a team that didn't have Ben for the first quarter of the season, gave away Santonio, had a second year and mostly clueless Mike Wallace and two rookie WRs, one of whom got injured for the year vs the Jets. May have been Tomlin's best season/postseason, coaching-wise.

2008-09 1. Defense and STs ruled vs SD 2. Team win vs Ravens, including a legendary defense making legendary type plays at the end. 3. Defense was tremendous in first half, offense pulled it out at the end in spectacular fashion, despite the worst SB-winning OL in NFL history (and I exaggerate not).

2007-08 1. down to 3rd string LT, Steelers go to short passing gameplan-- a rarity for Ben up to that point. Didn't always go perfectly, but against a familiar opponent, had the lead at the end of the game, until absolutely robbed on a QB scramble with blatant holding no-call.

2011-12 and 2014-15 are definitely below-the-line... but I don't honestly think either team was good enough to win it all. 15-16 is a different story if Bell and AB remained healthy. Last year if Shazier doesn't almost die, and if JJ TD gets called a TD... had a pretty solid chance as well. You can definitely fault the HC and GM for not having a better contingency plan for injuries... but the void of AB or Bell or AB & Bell or Shazier or 2 LTs in 5 out of 15 postseason games (all of which they lost)... they were 8-2 in the other games, including the SB loss to a HOF QB en fuego. Really the Tebow loss is the worst since the Tomlin era started.

Injuries and the contingency plans for replacing those players are the real downfall of this era's Steelers.

Sorry B2B, but I can’t help but notice that many of your excuses for Tomlin’s failures, are actually poor decisions made by Tomlin...
Not playing Fort (Spence)...offense built around the running game/Bell...no adequate replacement for Bell...
Plus, no logical excuse for the performance against Tebow/Broncos. Poor preparation and performance.
And I also can’t help but notice that you failed to mention 3rd and 6 against Jags.
It seems that even you are finding it harder to defend Head Aviators.

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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:00 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:

Injuries and the contingency plans for replacing those players are the real downfall of this era's Steelers.


Which kinda also falls on Tomlin along with Colbert for not having next man up being sufficient.

That Patriots AFCCG in Foxboro, the only Steeler who showed up for that game was Ben.

I'm glad you itemized the excuses.

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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:16 pm 
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Jobus Rum wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Injuries and the contingency plans for replacing those players are the real downfall of this era's Steelers.

Sorry B2B, but I can’t help but notice that many of your excuses for Tomlin’s failures, are actually poor decisions made by Tomlin...
Not playing Fort (Spence)...offense built around the running game/Bell...no adequate replacement for Bell...
Plus, no logical excuse for the performance against Tebow/Broncos. Poor preparation and performance.
And I also can’t help but notice that you failed to mention 3rd and 6 against Jags.
It seems that even you are finding it harder to defend Head Aviators.

Is there a part of the bolded "Injuries and the contingency plans for replacing those players are the real downfall of this era's Steelers." that you missed?

I think Aviators is doing pretty well this year in making effective changes and figuring out how to win with this edition of the team. How to deal with losing three of your biggest stars at key times-- one of whom it's nearly impossible to fully replace-- I think and you think it could have been done better than it was... I doubt seriously that they never thought about it or didn't prepare the best they could, given how they saw the situations. Maybe cap space had something to do with it, maybe Fort fell asleep in a meeting? Maybe the backups to Bell looked great in practice before that Ravens game? Who knows.

I rate the worst Steelers playoff losses under Tomlin thusly:
1. Tebow 2011-12
2. Baltimore 2013-14
3. Jags 2007-08
4. Jags 2017-18
5. GB 2010-11
6. NE 2016-17
7. Denver 2015-16

I'm not sure any of those are worse than the AFCCGames that Cowher lost, for example.

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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:39 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Jobus Rum wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Injuries and the contingency plans for replacing those players are the real downfall of this era's Steelers.

Sorry B2B, but I can’t help but notice that many of your excuses for Tomlin’s failures, are actually poor decisions made by Tomlin...
Not playing Fort (Spence)...offense built around the running game/Bell...no adequate replacement for Bell...
Plus, no logical excuse for the performance against Tebow/Broncos. Poor preparation and performance.
And I also can’t help but notice that you failed to mention 3rd and 6 against Jags.
It seems that even you are finding it harder to defend Head Aviators.

Is there a part of the bolded "Injuries and the contingency plans for replacing those players are the real downfall of this era's Steelers." that you missed?

I think Aviators is doing pretty well this year in making effective changes and figuring out how to win with this edition of the team. How to deal with losing three of your biggest stars at key times-- one of whom it's nearly impossible to fully replace-- I think and you think it could have been done better than it was... I doubt seriously that they never thought about it or didn't prepare the best they could, given how they saw the situations. Maybe cap space had something to do with it, maybe Fort fell asleep in a meeting? Maybe the backups to Bell looked great in practice before that Ravens game? Who knows.

I rate the worst Steelers playoff losses under Tomlin thusly:
1. Tebow 2011-12
2. Baltimore 2013-14
3. Jags 2007-08
4. Jags 2017-18
5. GB 2010-11
6. NE 2016-17
7. Denver 2015-16

I'm not sure any of those are worse than the AFCCGames that Cowher lost, for example.

I don’t but the injury excuse, unless it’s the QB...every team deals with injuries...
Now I agree that the plan for dealing with injuries can be the problem, and if you are saying that you hold Aviators accountable for those failures, then I apologize for misunderstanding.
And I agree about Cowher...

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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:49 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Jobus Rum wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Injuries and the contingency plans for replacing those players are the real downfall of this era's Steelers.

Sorry B2B, but I can’t help but notice that many of your excuses for Tomlin’s failures, are actually poor decisions made by Tomlin...
Not playing Fort (Spence)...offense built around the running game/Bell...no adequate replacement for Bell...
Plus, no logical excuse for the performance against Tebow/Broncos. Poor preparation and performance.
And I also can’t help but notice that you failed to mention 3rd and 6 against Jags.
It seems that even you are finding it harder to defend Head Aviators.

Is there a part of the bolded "Injuries and the contingency plans for replacing those players are the real downfall of this era's Steelers." that you missed?

I think Aviators is doing pretty well this year in making effective changes and figuring out how to win with this edition of the team. How to deal with losing three of your biggest stars at key times-- one of whom it's nearly impossible to fully replace-- I think and you think it could have been done better than it was... I doubt seriously that they never thought about it or didn't prepare the best they could, given how they saw the situations. Maybe cap space had something to do with it, maybe Fort fell asleep in a meeting? Maybe the backups to Bell looked great in practice before that Ravens game? Who knows.

I rate the worst Steelers playoff losses under Tomlin thusly:
1. Tebow 2011-12
2. Baltimore 2014-15
3. Jags 2007-08
4. Jags 2017-18
5. GB 2010-11
6. NE 2016-17
7. Denver 2015-16

I'm not sure any of those are worse than the AFCCGames that Cowher lost, for example.


I don't find the Tebow game loss as bad as others do. The Steelers were pretty beaten up coming into that game and lost several key players to significant injuries during the game. I think the loss to the Ravens in 2014-15 was worse. I pin that loss entirely on Tomlin- just think how that season could have gone had he not (1) alienated LeGarrette Blount by never giving him carries and then, after Blount forced his way off of the team (2) decided to ignore the back-up RB position after Blount left. We ended up starting the playoffs with Ben Tate, a street free agent who was on the team for four days and who has never played in a game since! Deciding not to carry a viable back-up running back for most of a season was roster malpractice. Maybe the Steelers beat the Ravens if the Steelers still had Blount on the roster. But at least we had Dri Archer...

Last year's loss to the Jags and the 2016-17 loss to the Patriots bothered me more as well. I know the Steelers were down to their 6th and 7th string wide-outs, but the decision to not try something different on defense against the Pats made me livid. I knew the Steelers wouldn't win after the first series. Brady could have scored 60 points that day if he needed to.


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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:13 pm 
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I'm pretty sure I've never seen Tomlin win a game with the less-talented roster. Cowher was a shortdick but at least that '06 Indy team was really, really good.

Pederson, McVay, and BB are the clear Tier 1.

Andy Reid would be Tier 1 if he wasn't utter garbage in the fourth quarter. I also like the cut of Vrabel's jib but it's early.


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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:13 pm 
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If the list has him higher than 20-25th it’s wrong and I don’t need to look at it

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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:43 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
I think Aviators is doing pretty well this year in making effective changes and figuring out how to win with this edition of the team. How to deal with losing three of your biggest stars at key times-- one of whom it's nearly impossible to fully replace-- I think and you think it could have been done better than it was... I doubt seriously that they never thought about it or didn't prepare the best they could, given how they saw the situations. Maybe cap space had something to do with it, maybe Fort fell asleep in a meeting? Maybe the backups to Bell looked great in practice before that Ravens game? Who knows.

Oh good lord. Hey, I guess Tomlin needs his apologists to fawn all over him, regardless of the obvious. If not for those drinking the koolaid, it would be pretty boring for the rest of us who need others to antagonize.

But hey, even a broken clock is right twice a day, so you just might be right.

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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:48 pm 
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Mike Tomlin wouldn't have lasted more than three seasons with the QB's Cowher had before Rothlisberger. Same thing with Jim Caldwell...considered great coach with Payton. Had the worst season a coach can have without him. Tomlin is not any better than Caldwell.

Cowher, Schottenheimer and Jim Leyland (I know different sports) were a lot alike. They would get you to championship games, but their team would always play tight in championship game and lose. Leyland and Cowher both did get a championship, but they should have had more.


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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:25 pm 
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Tomlin should be ranked anywhere from 9-12 as that is where his team finished last year.

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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:29 pm 
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Ice wrote:
Tied for 10th seems pretty fair, particularly if you shift Bowles above him. You don't tie the Browns and get the shit kicked out of you at home by the Raisins without repercussions.

The Raisins actually lost to the Browns.

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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:05 am 
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In 2010, they lost the Super Bowl to a Packers’ team that had nearly 20 players on IR...several of them good players...and the Packers lost a couple more during the game itself.

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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:27 am 
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That is a fair point about the Packers losing so many players to IR but the Steelers weren't too shabby in that department either.

The AFC championship game against the JETs we lost Pouncey and Emmanuel Sanders. Sanders tried to play in the Super Bowl in that first quarter but quickly left the game. They kept Aaron Smith on the active roster hoping to have him for the playoffs but he never was able to play. Willie Colon was on IR, instead we had Jonathan Scott trying to play LT. Doug Legursky trying to play for Pouncey. Troy had injured his knee and was limping on one leg down the stretch for the playoffs and bravely trying to play through it.

The Packers had injuries throughout the season but we unfortunately got injuries late and even right before the big game and it was just a death blow. I remember we had some 115 games combined where the players were either out or on IR for the games. The Packers were something like 200 games combined for players out or on IR. I don't know how you categorize Ben being suspended for 4 games, is that 'out'? Actually quite a feat to coach a team to a Super Bowl with all of that going on, I don't blame Tomlin for that season ending in a loss, to me it was a fine accomplishment nonetheless.

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