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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:10 am 
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I thought Dupree had a decent game. IMHO, Dupree has began playing better. Up to his draft status? Hard to say yet. Dupree did some good things and had some struggles. Dupree definitely isn't as sloppy bad as before. And I forget who stated the whole standing there and watching plays unfold Dupree is gone, but I agree. He's much more assertive and in more plays instead of watching from a distance. What I don't understand is why does this DC insist on putting LB'ers on WR's? Why was Watt and Williams on WR's in this game? It's an instant mismatch that was an advantage for the offense. Also I thought the zone they played got eaten up by Dalton and his WR corps. Need lots of work on their zone defense.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:13 am 
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I understand what Scunge was trying to do with the stats on sacks. But, to me, raw sack numbers don't tell you the whole story.

The most effective OLBs get PRESSURES. They get near the QB, they hit the QB, they force bad throws because of pressure. They also force double teams.

I have my issues with PFF, but I think they are spot on in rating Dupree as very poor. For example, in 2017, he had only 40 pressures from 354 rushes. That means he's only getting pressure on 11% of his rushes. That is abysmal.

Most of Dupree's sacks come when he is unblocked, on a stunt with a missed blitz pickup or from a coverage sack. He simply can't beat NFL tackles. Sack stats alone mean nothing. Think about it. When was the last time you saw Dupree double teamed? Heyward, Tuitt, and Watt all get more attention that Dupree...yet Dupree can't generate pressure vs OTs and TEs in one-on-one scenarios.

He sucks. Yes, his athleticism helps him to make a play or two here and there. But let's not exaggerate here. His INT in TB was a gift thrown right at him. It's not like he had amazing coverage and cut in front of someone. He has 2 dong sacks and one sack against a Walmart greeter this year.

He's flat out terrible. Aside from no instincts, he has terrible bend. He's not particularly quick off the ball. TEs bitchslap him on runs all too frequently. And, he STILL doesn't know how to use his hands (other than critical hands to the face penalties on 3rd down).

What a Dumpster Fire of a 1st round pick.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:19 am 
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Sometimes you are going to be have an offense go empty set on you, motion their RB out and have him lineup at WR. What do you do on defense? It is unavoidable sometimes. Joe Mixon did that, lined up wide at WR and Vince Williams was matching up on him. I agree that is a mismatch of epic proportions.

Again though, I keep banging this drum but we do have some LBers that are quality athletes, Dupree, Watt, Bostic, they are more equipped to drop into pass coverage, even LJ Fort although he was injured and did not play.

Watt, ran a 4.69 40, had a 6.79 3 cone, which is incredible and a very good 4.13 short shuttle at 252 pounds at the combine. Remember he was also a former TE in college who made the switch to defense. Dropping into coverage and running with TEs/RBs/WRs is not really that foreign to him, he has experience being on the other side of that.

But Williams? A 4.76 40 may not sound that bad but when you pair it with that 7.53 3 cone and that really bad 4.67 short shuttle, he is just really stiff and lumbering trying to cover anybody. I bet if Fort was completely healthy and ready to go they STILL would have had Vince Williams play 97% of the snaps against Cincy. Because green dot and all, because $20 million contract extension.

The Steelers defense is not going to be able to do their part if they continue to have Vince Williams out there playing 95-100% of the snaps. Teams are aware of the achilles heels of our defense. Williams and Burns. Teams target both of them repeatedly every game and have success and it is only going to get worse and worse.

Morgan Burnett and Jon Bostic and and LJ Fort and Matthew Thomas have to see more snaps at Williams expense. And Cam Sutton has to be given a chance to unseat Burns at CB. If the Steelers start to make those changes this defense may become a strength down the stretch. If not, the elite QBs are going to carve us up.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:28 am 
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franco32 wrote:
I understand what Scunge was trying to do with the stats on sacks. But, to me, raw sack numbers don't tell you the whole story.

The most effective OLBs get PRESSURES. They get near the QB, they hit the QB, they force bad throws because of pressure. They also force double teams.

I have my issues with PFF, but I think they are spot on in rating Dupree as very poor. For example, in 2017, he had only 40 pressures from 354 rushes. That means he's only getting pressure on 11% of his rushes. That is abysmal.

Most of Dupree's sacks come when he is unblocked, on a stunt with a missed blitz pickup or from a coverage sack. He simply can't beat NFL tackles. Sack stats alone mean nothing. Think about it. When was the last time you saw Dupree double teamed? Heyward, Tuitt, and Watt all get more attention that Dupree...yet Dupree can't generate pressure vs OTs and TEs in one-on-one scenarios.

He sucks. Yes, his athleticism helps him to make a play or two here and there. But let's not exaggerate here. His INT in TB was a gift thrown right at him. It's not like he had amazing coverage and cut in front of someone. He has 2 dong sacks and one sack against a Walmart greeter this year.

He's flat out terrible. Aside from no instincts, he has terrible bend. He's not particularly quick off the ball. TEs bitchslap him on runs all too frequently. And, he STILL doesn't know how to use his hands (other than critical hands to the face penalties on 3rd down).

What a Dumpster Fire of a 1st round pick.


Agreed, how many times has Dupree blitzed compared to the rest? How many snaps has he played compared to the rest? Sack numbers by themselves don’t tell the accurate story.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:13 am 
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franco32 wrote:
I understand what Scunge was trying to do with the stats on sacks. But, to me, raw sack numbers don't tell you the whole story.

The most effective OLBs get PRESSURES. They get near the QB, they hit the QB, they force bad throws because of pressure. They also force double teams.

I have my issues with PFF, but I think they are spot on in rating Dupree as very poor. For example, in 2017, he had only 40 pressures from 354 rushes. That means he's only getting pressure on 11% of his rushes. That is abysmal.


I am guilty of using stats to try and argue my points of view but sometimes I just don't get stats and how they are meaningful or how they apply to the issue at hand.

So Dupree only had '40 pressures' from 354 rushes. My question to you Franco is this, are 'pressures' the same thing as a 'quarterback hurry'? Are the two terms interchangeable, do they both mean the same thing?

If so then maybe that is the reason Gruden traded Khalil Mack to the Bears because he only had 52 last season? I mean if some piece of shit like Dupree gets 40 then surely Mack should have been able to do much better than 52, right? Aaron Donald only had 48.5. Von Miller had 53. Demarcus Lawrence supposedly led the NFL with 55.

Now granted maybe I don't understand this, but is 40 really that awful if the NFL leader last season had 55??

I find PFF and their stats and scientific analysis to be overkill for the most part. Please, somebody lighten me, what the hell is the difference between a sack, a QB hit, and a pressure, or quarterback hurry??

How come I can find some sites that say Von Miller had 53 pressures or hurries and then PFF proudly proclaims that he had 83 'total pressures'??

Well, which is it? Who is right? Who is wrong?

So, Bud Dupree only had 354 rushes but he played 795 snaps last season. That means he was only pass rushing 44% of the time that he was on the field. I wonder how often he dropped into coverage? Again, this stuff will drive you nuts, but, let me stumble through this, he didn't play the first game, Kizer of Cleveland had 30 pass attempts, the opposing team collectively for the year only had 499 pass attempts, so the maximum pass attempts that Dupree could have been on the field for was 469?

469 pass attempts by the opposing offense from games 2-16. And Dupree supposedly rushed 354 times? That means he might have only pass rushed 75% of the time? That he was dropping into coverage 25% of the time??

Again, these top pass rushers, the Von Miller's the Macks, the Demarcus Lawrence's are they only pass rushing 75% of the time? Are they dropping 25% of the time?

I know Cam Heyward supposedly led the team with 62 hurries or pressures, etc, but he was most likely not dropping 25% of the time on passing downs was he? So for Bud to have fewer opportunities and to have 40, that is somehow cringe worthy? Really??

If Bud had rushed for everyone of those pass attempts, all 469 of them at his 11% pressure rate according to PFF then he would have had 53 pressures!! The same as Von Miller right?? :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:36 am 
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As I said, I have my issues with PFF. There is human judgement going on to characterize something as a "pressure". Heck, the same guy at PFF is not measuring all the players so they have different humans with different standards judging players across the spectrum.

What I do know is that those stats ring true to me having watched Dupree for three years. My definition of a pressure is either influencing a throw or hitting a QB without getting a sack. In looking at Dupree and his famous arc, I don't think he's generating pressure on more than 1 in 10 or, at best, 2 in 10 rushes.

The other problem with stats, as I mentioned, is that they don't account for chips and double teams. 55 or 60 pressures might be very good if you are being constantly double teamed or chipped. In Bud's case, no team ever cares about him. He's almost always just 1 on 1 and fails. That's a big problem for our D. It's a huge reason we don't get good pressure from a 4 man rush, and it's probably why Butler is obsessed with these stupid telegraphed corner blitzes that are terribly disguised.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:02 pm 
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I totally understand where you are coming from Franco, I myself was thinking this offseason that Dupree was playing his last season as a Steeler. I felt he would just be meh, and that the Steelers would cut him, get out from under that 5th year option of $9.2 million and they would look elsewhere.

But through 6 games, he has changed my mind. I do think he is playing better, that he is approaching the level of play that we got from Jason Worilds. Neither of them are ever going to be confused with Harrison or Woodley but I think the Steelers will resign him.

In terms of pressure and sacks, and him being better this season, I do see it. I have seen plays where he has gotten a double team, where he did hit the QB. Last season he had two fines for hitting Alex Smith and Matt Moore, the first was $18,000 the second was $24,000. He DOES touch the QBs, there is proof right there. In terms of being run up the arc by OTs, it is different this year, he is shortening that arc, so to speak. Used to be that a QB did not ever have to move, he would be redirected way way back behind the QB. This year? He is turning it more into the QB where the QB has to move, move up in the pocket, has to help his tackle out by moving. That is improvement, if a QB has to move and then reset himself, his base, that is progress.

I am not proclaiming him to be the next Von Miller but he is improving and is still young and seems to be playing much better with the position switch. And who knows? Maybe he will give us a very good hometown discount and settle for lesser contract??

One last thing, the sacks are not all just style over substance this year. Haven't you seen the graphics where we were ranked 1st in QB pressure this season? It was just a game or two ago they were showing that? Even last year weren't we in the top 5 for pressure, ranked 9th overall for all of the bogus PFF metrics for pressure?

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:37 pm 
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Will-the-Shake wrote:
Excellent work by Scunge throughout here, and the Dupree debate is an interesting one because of the numbers he's put up relative to his peers. But there are some things that don't show up in stats, such as looking lost on big plays, or getting physically dominated in critical situations. Dupree's tape is such a mixed bag, because occasionally good things do happen for him as a result of him being in the right place at the right time, or using his athleticism (usually when no one is in his way). In mentioning Burns, "no instincts whatsoever" it highlights what has been frustrating to watch as the Steelers evaluate defensive talent in the draft. Football instincts seem placed way lower than they should in the evaluation process, and athletes who look the prototypical ideal are too often selected over guys with the better football instincts. Not every player can be Mike Vrabel (I still can't get over the career he had for NE after Steelers let him go), in terms of razor sharp instincts, but come on, it's all to easy to pick apart the thought process they have going on with these defensive guys they're hoping to coach up. The latest first round selection a perfect example. Too early to tell on him, but I'd be very pleasantly surprised to suddenly see him develop instincts to the point that he's a step ahead of what's going on, as opposed to two steps behind.


well stated...I think when I look at 1st round on defense I unfairly expect a fast learning curve and one to cause disruption like Myles Garrett.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:52 pm 
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Scunge wrote:
I totally understand where you are coming from Franco, I myself was thinking this offseason that Dupree was playing his last season as a Steeler. I felt he would just be meh, and that the Steelers would cut him, get out from under that 5th year option of $9.2 million and they would look elsewhere.

But through 6 games, he has changed my mind. I do think he is playing better, that he is approaching the level of play that we got from Jason Worilds. Neither of them are ever going to be confused with Harrison or Woodley but I think the Steelers will resign him.

In terms of pressure and sacks, and him being better this season, I do see it. I have seen plays where he has gotten a double team, where he did hit the QB. Last season he had two fines for hitting Alex Smith and Matt Moore, the first was $18,000 the second was $24,000. He DOES touch the QBs, there is proof right there. In terms of being run up the arc by OTs, it is different this year, he is shortening that arc, so to speak. Used to be that a QB did not ever have to move, he would be redirected way way back behind the QB. This year? He is turning it more into the QB where the QB has to move, move up in the pocket, has to help his tackle out by moving. That is improvement, if a QB has to move and then reset himself, his base, that is progress.

I am not proclaiming him to be the next Von Miller but he is improving and is still young and seems to be playing much better with the position switch. And who knows? Maybe he will give us a very good hometown discount and settle for lesser contract??

One last thing, the sacks are not all just style over substance this year. Haven't you seen the graphics where we were ranked 1st in QB pressure this season? It was just a game or two ago they were showing that? Even last year weren't we in the top 5 for pressure, ranked 9th overall for all of the bogus PFF metrics for pressure?
Thanks for posting, scunge. You make very reasonable and sensible arguments.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:53 pm 
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Will-the-Shake wrote:
The latest first round selection a perfect example. Too early to tell on him, but I'd be very pleasantly surprised to suddenly see him develop instincts to the point that he's a step ahead of what's going on, as opposed to two steps behind.

The last first round safety taken by the Steelers also looked lost during his rookie campaign. He turned out OK.

There's a weird dynamic on this board - we tend to bitch when Tomlin doesn't play rookies immediately, then we bitch when those guys play like.....rookies.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:07 pm 
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franco32 wrote:
I understand what Scunge was trying to do with the stats on sacks. But, to me, raw sack numbers don't tell you the whole story.

The most effective OLBs get PRESSURES. They get near the QB, they hit the QB, they force bad throws because of pressure. They also force double teams.

I have my issues with PFF, but I think they are spot on in rating Dupree as very poor. For example, in 2017, he had only 40 pressures from 354 rushes. That means he's only getting pressure on 11% of his rushes. That is abysmal.

Most of Dupree's sacks come when he is unblocked, on a stunt with a missed blitz pickup or from a coverage sack. He simply can't beat NFL tackles. Sack stats alone mean nothing. Think about it. When was the last time you saw Dupree double teamed? Heyward, Tuitt, and Watt all get more attention that Dupree...yet Dupree can't generate pressure vs OTs and TEs in one-on-one scenarios.

He sucks. Yes, his athleticism helps him to make a play or two here and there. But let's not exaggerate here. His INT in TB was a gift thrown right at him. It's not like he had amazing coverage and cut in front of someone. He has 2 dong sacks and one sack against a Walmart greeter this year.

He's flat out terrible. Aside from no instincts, he has terrible bend. He's not particularly quick off the ball. TEs bitchslap him on runs all too frequently. And, he STILL doesn't know how to use his hands (other than critical hands to the face penalties on 3rd down).

What a Dumpster Fire of a 1st round pick.

As recently as a couple of weeks ago, the Steelers were leading the NFL in QB pressures and I think Dupree was at or near the top of the Steelers players in that stat. And I challenge you to bak up the assertion that his sacks were dong sacks. He beat OL on a stunt at least 2x. That's not a dong sack.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:08 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
franco32 wrote:
I understand what Scunge was trying to do with the stats on sacks. But, to me, raw sack numbers don't tell you the whole story.

The most effective OLBs get PRESSURES. They get near the QB, they hit the QB, they force bad throws because of pressure. They also force double teams.

I have my issues with PFF, but I think they are spot on in rating Dupree as very poor. For example, in 2017, he had only 40 pressures from 354 rushes. That means he's only getting pressure on 11% of his rushes. That is abysmal.

Most of Dupree's sacks come when he is unblocked, on a stunt with a missed blitz pickup or from a coverage sack. He simply can't beat NFL tackles. Sack stats alone mean nothing. Think about it. When was the last time you saw Dupree double teamed? Heyward, Tuitt, and Watt all get more attention that Dupree...yet Dupree can't generate pressure vs OTs and TEs in one-on-one scenarios.

He sucks. Yes, his athleticism helps him to make a play or two here and there. But let's not exaggerate here. His INT in TB was a gift thrown right at him. It's not like he had amazing coverage and cut in front of someone. He has 2 dong sacks and one sack against a Walmart greeter this year.

He's flat out terrible. Aside from no instincts, he has terrible bend. He's not particularly quick off the ball. TEs bitchslap him on runs all too frequently. And, he STILL doesn't know how to use his hands (other than critical hands to the face penalties on 3rd down).

What a Dumpster Fire of a 1st round pick.

As recently as a couple of weeks ago, the Steelers were leading the NFL in QB pressures and I think Dupree was at or near the top of the Steelers players in that stat. And I challenge you to bak up the assertion that his sacks were dong sacks. He beat OL on a stunt at least 2x. That's not a dong sack.


Even with his Horn of Africa pass rush move.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:22 pm 
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Charles Demarr wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
franco32 wrote:
I understand what Scunge was trying to do with the stats on sacks. But, to me, raw sack numbers don't tell you the whole story.

The most effective OLBs get PRESSURES. They get near the QB, they hit the QB, they force bad throws because of pressure. They also force double teams.

I have my issues with PFF, but I think they are spot on in rating Dupree as very poor. For example, in 2017, he had only 40 pressures from 354 rushes. That means he's only getting pressure on 11% of his rushes. That is abysmal.

Most of Dupree's sacks come when he is unblocked, on a stunt with a missed blitz pickup or from a coverage sack. He simply can't beat NFL tackles. Sack stats alone mean nothing. Think about it. When was the last time you saw Dupree double teamed? Heyward, Tuitt, and Watt all get more attention that Dupree...yet Dupree can't generate pressure vs OTs and TEs in one-on-one scenarios.

He sucks. Yes, his athleticism helps him to make a play or two here and there. But let's not exaggerate here. His INT in TB was a gift thrown right at him. It's not like he had amazing coverage and cut in front of someone. He has 2 dong sacks and one sack against a Walmart greeter this year.

He's flat out terrible. Aside from no instincts, he has terrible bend. He's not particularly quick off the ball. TEs bitchslap him on runs all too frequently. And, he STILL doesn't know how to use his hands (other than critical hands to the face penalties on 3rd down).

What a Dumpster Fire of a 1st round pick.

As recently as a couple of weeks ago, the Steelers were leading the NFL in QB pressures and I think Dupree was at or near the top of the Steelers players in that stat. And I challenge you to bak up the assertion that his sacks were dong sacks. He beat OL on a stunt at least 2x. That's not a dong sack.


Even with his Horn of Africa pass rush move.

Best description ever! The bad thing...….I am noticing Watt having similar Horn moves...…..going to send our defense through The Straits of Magellan.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:19 pm 
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B2B,

I don't have links but I remember each sack well. The first sack was a legitimately good move but against an UDFA rookie. He hit the edge hard and took a good angle.

The TB sack was a coverage sack. Dupree is stonewalled but Fitz steps up and Dupree comes looping back inside to sack him.

The other sack was on a stunt where the OL made a mistake and failed to slide over and pick Dupree up.

My definition of a Dong Sack is anytime you get a hustle sack without beating your man or anytime your man makes a mistake and let's you have a free shot. 2 of those 3 were Dong Sacks to me. I know you've always backed Bud. I've never quite understood why aside from the fact that he is an outlier athlete and you really prioritize that during your draft evaluation process.

I've always thought Bud would suck, even pre-draft. His speed and burst when he has to engage just isn't there. HIS FEET ALMOST STOP MOVING when he is about to engage with a blocker. He still doesn't bend well and his hands technique is still atrocious. He also suffers from brain dead moments on the field and that is instincts more than anything. Is he playing a LITTLE better on the other side this year? Maybe a bit. I'll give you that. The problem is that he's been hot garbage for so long that it doesn't take much to improve. The best gauge of how badly he sucks is how other teams game plan him. He is rarely double teamed. I only really ever see it if we drop a lot in coverage and there are extra blockers around with little to do. Almost all of his pass rushes are 1 v 1. It's hard to objectively look at those and say he is anything other than "just a guy". Certainly not deserving of a 1st round pick. I think Chickillo could put up numbers and tackles close to him if he was the full time starter.

I think everyone agrees he's not a 9 million a year guy. I probably wouldn't even pay him 6 million at this point. I just think we can do better.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:23 pm 
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I just think Bud is better than advertised. I think I gravitate to defending groupthink overboard.

Guaranteed we have no idea what they ask him to do on each play and guaranteed most of the time he does what they ask him to do... that's just reality.

I firmly believe the edges are doing what the Steelers are asking them to do, which is, most of the time, to push QB up in the pocket, to IDL or blitzers. And it's working.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:54 pm 
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Dupree’s a huge reason this defense sucks cock.

He and other paycheck thieves like Tuitt and Burns should all be jettisoned, but Coach Aviators will keep trotting these turds out there.

Embarrassing.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:23 pm 
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This defense hardly sucks cock... you might want to revise your standards for what being a good defense means in the NFL, circa 2018.

Steelers are pretty much exactly an average defense. They do have a high degree of variability, meaning they can play pretty well and then very poorly... but overall they are smack dab in the middle.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:08 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
This defense hardly sucks cock... you might want to revise your standards for what being a good defense means in the NFL, circa 2018.

Steelers are pretty much exactly an average defense. They do have a high degree of variability, meaning they can play pretty well and then very poorly... but overall they are smack dab in the middle.


With the season on the line, against the GREAT Blake Bortles, IN Heinz Field, playoff time....how'd they do?

This season, Flacco made them look stupid. Mahomes, in his second ever start I believe, threw 6 TD's and no picks....again IN HEINZ FIELD.

After an excellent first half, how'd they fair against the great Ryan Fitzpatrick in Tampa?

What's the average amount of points they've given up at home say, over the last 5 games?

C'mon dude. This defense fucking blows.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:56 pm 
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A few more timely pressures leading to turnovers, and this could be a reasonably good defense. Again, though, the lapses have been big when they've happened, which skews perception.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:12 pm 
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Mahommes is making every defense look stupid this year.

The fact is that we have been facing QBs that have been on hot streaks, playing out of their minds great, whether it was Fitzmagic, Mahommes, Joe Flacco, Matt Ryan, etc. Matt Ryan's previous two games before playing us he had 793 yards passing, 8 TDs and 0 INTs, he had really heated up his connection with Calvin Ridley, they had connected for 5 TDs in those two games, then they come to Pittsburgh, even get Freeman back and what happens against that crappy Pittsburgh defense??? Yeah.

The evidence does not paint a picture of a shitty defense, just the opposite. We have been playing some very good QBs and holding our own even with injuries, the issues are really in the secondary, Haden, Hilton and Burnett have missed time to injury and Burns has regressed. Still plenty of time for things to shake out in the secondary, still 10 games to get better.

Here is something that I wish more people would do, get a stopwatch, or use your phone and its ability to be a stopwatch and go watch highlights of Von Miller. Do you see him doing Horn of Africa wide arcs to the QBs? Yeah, I see him do it at times.

Do I see him have 4, 5, 6 seconds to get to the QB? Yeah, I do. That Denver defense will play man to man more and give their pass rush more time to get there.

How would Miller get sacks and pressure in our defense with our large cushions and soft zone coverage where not just the Tom Brady's but the Andy Dalton's can get the ball out in 2-2.5 seconds???

Dong sacks. I have watched Miller highlights where they did have 5 rushers, they did blitz and Miller looped, stunted to the interior of the O-line and met little resistance for an easy sack. When Miller does that he is awesome!!! What a beast!! When Dupree or Watt do that with Hilton blitzing and being that 5th rusher, than somehow it is not legitimate and it is a 'Dong sack'. Whatever. :roll:

To Ice, I don't know, seems like the DBs have been dropping INTs there for the taking, Haden had his chance at two INTs and dropped both in one game. That could have dramatically altered the course of the game, made it easier, more of a blowout early on.

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