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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:12 pm 
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Scunge wrote:
All I know is that the two OLBs are playing better this season. The switching of sides has worked

Seems like some coach somewhere should get some kind of credit.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:14 pm 
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Well that is a great point, who knows maybe it was Joey Porter that was pushing for them to switch spots. But then that wouldn't fit into the narrative that Porter is a bad coach and doesn't know what he is doing, right?

I have a feeling that this topic is going to turn into 12 pages...going to be a fun two weeks as FC pointed out.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:06 pm 
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Dupree’s a useless, tits on a bull turd.

Nothing more.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:20 pm 
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Some perspective on the edge rushers of the 2015 NFL draft after 4 years now. That is plenty of time to see who is on the rise, who is getting better and those that are falling by the wayside, trending downward, I think many of you might be surprised at the results.

Frank Clark 27.5 sacks
Vic Beasley, 25.5 sacks
Preston Smith, 20.5 sacks
Bud Dupree, 17.5 sacks
Markus Golden, 17 sacks
Z Smith, 15.5 sacks
Shane Ray 14 sacks
Eli Harold 8 sacks
Shaq Thompson 5 sacks
Randy Gregory 2 sacks

So, Bud Dupree is 4th in sacks from that 2015 class of edge rushers. I personally loved Frank Clark, felt he was an absolute stud but he had character concerns and I knew that he would fall to the second round. Steelers wouldn't even touch him in that round, Seattle pounced on him immediately.

It is one thing to look at this 4 years from now, well 3 years and 6 games from that draft. But how are these pass rushers trending from say last season and the 6 games this season. How are they trending in their last 22 games?? Wouldn't that be a true indicator to show what players are ascending, which are descending, disappearing??

2017-2018, the last 22 games

Frank Clark, 14.5 sacks
Bud Dupree, 9 sacks
Z Smith, 9 sacks
Preston Smith, 8 sacks
Vic Beasley, 6 sacks
Eli Harold, 5 sacks
Shaq Thompson, 4 sacks
Shane Ray, 2 sacks
Randy Gregory, 1 sack
Markus Golden, .5 sack

Some players like a Vic Beasley and a Markus Golden just haven't been able to replicate their one great season. Beasley had that one monster 15.5 season, and Golden had that 12.5 season but the past 22 games show them not able to build upon that great initial starts to their careers. They are trending downward. Even someone like Preston Smith is trending downward, he has 0 sacks this year.

And there is Bud Dupree, 4th overall in sacks from that draft class, and tied with his team mate from Kentucky, Z Smith, with 9 sacks in just the past 22 games, second only to Frank Clark's 14.5 sacks.

Sorry KC, and sorry to the other Dupree haters out there, but the Steelers are looking at this and saying to themselves, hey he is improving, we did not reach for him, who else is doing better from that draft class? Frank Clark is clearly the best from that draft class but after that who knows?

The Steelers will keep him and reward him with a contract like 5 years, $35-40 million. Yes, a bitter pill for some of you to swallow but it is going to happen.

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Last edited by Scunge on Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:45 pm 
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Not going to argue with your numbers or logic, Scunge. But aren't we, or better stated, the Steelers, expecting more than just sacks? And I'm not saying this because I'm trying to run Buddy down. I actually believe there's an untapped upside to our boy.

So where does he stand on TFL, FF, Int, QBP, etc. And while we're at it, how about percent of dropping into coverage. If looking at ascension/descension in sack performance, shouldn't we consider how the backer is being used?

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:01 pm 
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Oh, I totally agree, and look at what Dupree has done this year.

Depending on who you talk to he has either 3 or 4 passes defensed.

He has 1 INT and he returned it for a TD. He has 1 forced fumble.

Dupree has done all of that in the first 6 games this season. It is ironic that the logic was moving Dupree to ROLB would simplify things for him, not ask him to drop as much or whatever and yet he is statistically having his best season in terms of off-ball duties, dropping into coverage, making plays on the ball, coming up with an INT, scoring a TD, forcing a fumble. He almost had a second TD off of Watt's sack and strip of Ryan in the Atlanta game but the ball got kicked around and Fort ultimately landed on it. I know this narrative has been drawn up that he is always standing around, watching the action, but not this year, he seems to be around the football more, and the stats prove it, 3-4 passes defensed, 1 INT, 1 TD, 1 FF, there are some OLBs that don't do that in an entire season.

I do know that last last season it was reported that TJ Watt was 2nd in dropping into coverage and Dupree was ranked 5th in terms of dropping into coverage among edge rushers/OLBs.

Hard to get the numbers but I can't imagine that Atlanta's Vic Beasley drops into coverage as much as our OLBs, or that Seattle wastes Frank Clark in coverage.

I am not saying that Bud Dupree is the second coming of James Harrison or Lamar Woodley but he is not as bad as some of you make him out to be. He is in Jason Worilds territory to me and I think we would have signed him to a decent contract had he not just up and retired.

Edge rushers are hard to find and Dupree is somebody who can complement Watt. It is important that they not overpay for him though, I don't want to see him making $10 million per year or paid like he is a Von Miller that would be crazy of course.

And to your point, 7, yeah, how the edge rushers are used can inflate their sacks. I mean, if Frank Clark were taken out of that Seattle defense and used in our 3-4 would he be the same player? Would he lead this draft class with 27.5 sacks? I don't know for certain. Maybe he is the type of player that needs to be moving forward, needs more and more rush attempts to get those sacks. You look at Dupree's teammate at Kentucky, Smith, he is really more of a quasi DE/OLB, they have always had that type of player in their scheme, a chess piece that they can move around, line up everywhere, as an OLB, as a DE, part of a rotation. Smith through the 2018 season is playing 65% of the snaps but in previous years for the Ravens he has been at 50% or less. I think that helps a player if they are in a system where they are fresh and rotate.

Dupree? The Steelers have long thought it the best practice to leave them (OLBs) out there for most of the snaps. Bud has taken 87% of the snaps this year. Last year it was 81% but that needs some explanation. He did not play the first game of the year last season. So, he had 795 snaps of the 909 snaps in the remaining 15 games, so he was on the field for 87% of the snaps last season too.

Again, if you have your OLBs on the field so damn much, they are bound to get tired, it has to impact their ability to pass rush as the game wears on. We have seen a TJ Watt or a Dupree drop in coverage and try and cover a RB/WR/TE 30 yards down the field and then on the very next play expected to beat a 330 pound OT for a sack. You just don't see other teams do that with their edge rushers as often or like ever.

Some players, like Frank Clark in the Seattle defense he gets blows, he gets rest throughout a game and the season. He is playing 69% of the snaps this season, and last season he was at 67%. There is something to this, I think a player that is well rested is more effective as a pass rusher, it does make a difference.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:33 am 
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KC wrote:
Dupree’s a useless, tits on a bull turd.

Nothing more.

Yep and we alll know Colbert will sign him to an extension.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:00 am 
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I would add, with the way the league is recently passing so much more, our OLBs should be getting even more sacks.

We have had an average of about 42 pass throw at us per game this season. That would be about 670 passes this year. That's got to be close to the record against us?

Pretty soon, D's should be getting 60+ sacks a year.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:29 am 
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DuPree has improved this season. Still, he's not making anyone forget Woodley & Harrison. He's on pace for 8 sacks, has 1 forced fumble, a pick 6 - He's not the biggest hole on the defense.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:38 am 
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44LetzRide wrote:
DuPree has improved this season. Still, he's not making anyone forget Woodley & Harrison. He's on pace for 8 sacks, has 1 forced fumble, a pick 6 - He's not the biggest hole on the defense.

While I'm on record as one of those "Dupree Haters", I certainly can't argue with this...

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:53 am 
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I would much rather have Dupree on the field than Jarvis Jones.

I would take Worilds over Dupree at this point, by the end of the season I might see it differently so yeah I could see the argument that Dupree is approaching Worilds territory.

Worilds had 22, 23 QB hits in last 2 seasons. I was starting to like him his final season and believe it really hurt the team when he decided he no longer wanted to play football.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:02 pm 
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Not trying to be a ball washer but thanks for the contributions.
Scunge...I think you put me in my place...lol
I have a h@rd on for Bud...its like I almost look to have an agenda on him but yet he is a solid system OLB.
Maybe we can debate Tuitt or Artie next. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:50 pm 
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Joey's Pitbull wrote:
Maybe we can debate Tuitt or Artie next. :D

Artie is a major liability on this defense, and could be the difference between another Lombardi and another "almost but not quite" season...

...move along, there is no debate to be had here...

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:24 pm 
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"The Steelers will keep him and reward him with a contract like 5 years, $35-40 million. Yes, a bitter pill for some of you to swallow but it is going to happen."

I agree with everything youre saying Scunge.... but I disagree about the contract extension. The big unknown is the two young olb we have on our club and how they develop. We have Adams on the practice squad and If Ola comes back and plays well this year... I think Colbert will be happy to pay his 10 million + salary for next year and let all three battle it out next camp.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:56 pm 
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Scunge wrote:

Sorry KC, and sorry to the other Dupree haters out there, but the Steelers are looking at this and saying to themselves, hey he is improving, we did not reach for him, who else is doing better from that draft class? Frank Clark is clearly the best from that draft class but after that who knows?

The Steelers will keep him and reward him with a contract like 5 years, $35-40 million. Yes, a bitter pill for some of you to swallow but it is going to happen.


Question for consideration- is Bud Dupree better or worse than Clark Haggans?


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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:00 pm 
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Scunge wrote:
Some players, like Frank Clark in the Seattle defense he gets blows, he gets rest throughout a game and the season. He is playing 69% of the snaps this season, and last season he was at 67%. There is something to this, I think a player that is well rested is more effective as a pass rusher, it does make a difference.

Agreed with your entire post, but wanted to comment on just this ^^

It's those edge rushers that are needed the most late in the fourth quarter when you're up by a couple and the other team has the ball. It's when WE need them the most to take some pressure off our secondary while the opposing qb takes to the air. That wasn't the case when Cincy matriculated the length of the field at the end of the first half Sunday, however.

DP39 wrote:
I would add, with the way the league is recently passing so much more, our OLBs should be getting even more sacks.

We have had an average of about 42 pass throw at us per game this season. That would be about 670 passes this year. That's got to be close to the record against us?

Pretty soon, D's should be getting 60+ sacks a year.

And a million $ in fines for touching the qb's uniforms. I mean, the league is passing more because the league is making it more difficult, and expensive, to play defense.

Joey's Pitbull wrote:
Maybe we can debate Tuitt or Artie next. :D

The only thing to debate is how and when to get rid of him, and how much we'll have to pay someone to take him off our hands.

Right now, I'd give a late fourth rounder just to have someone take him off the roster.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:44 pm 
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Excellent work by Scunge throughout here, and the Dupree debate is an interesting one because of the numbers he's put up relative to his peers. But there are some things that don't show up in stats, such as looking lost on big plays, or getting physically dominated in critical situations. Dupree's tape is such a mixed bag, because occasionally good things do happen for him as a result of him being in the right place at the right time, or using his athleticism (usually when no one is in his way). In mentioning Burns, "no instincts whatsoever" it highlights what has been frustrating to watch as the Steelers evaluate defensive talent in the draft. Football instincts seem placed way lower than they should in the evaluation process, and athletes who look the prototypical ideal are too often selected over guys with the better football instincts. Not every player can be Mike Vrabel (I still can't get over the career he had for NE after Steelers let him go), in terms of razor sharp instincts, but come on, it's all to easy to pick apart the thought process they have going on with these defensive guys they're hoping to coach up. The latest first round selection a perfect example. Too early to tell on him, but I'd be very pleasantly surprised to suddenly see him develop instincts to the point that he's a step ahead of what's going on, as opposed to two steps behind.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:00 pm 
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Suwanee88 wrote:
KC wrote:
Dupree’s a useless, tits on a bull turd.

Nothing more.

Yep and we alll know Colbert will sign him to an extension.


Bingo.

The guy fucking blows.

Thank Christ for TJ Watt.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:38 pm 
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Look at this play by Bud! :shock:
https://twitter.com/alex_kozora/status/ ... 90402?s=21


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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:57 pm 
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SOCALSTEEL wrote:


Could he be assigned to cover and release the RB to the flat? The tackle looks like a dancing penguin, :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:57 pm 
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Scunge wrote:
I mostly agree Franco, but that Vince Williams contract just blew my mind at the time and to me it sets a precedent that they will easily sign Bud to a new contract. And also Jesse James too for that matter.

To me if I am the GM I move on from all 3 of those players and don't pay them but that is not what will happen. Instead we will see Vince Williams make $6.2 million per year, we will see Dupree make $7 million per year and Jesse James resigned and making between $4.5-5 million per year. That is mind boggling to me. That is why we can't have nice things, we overspend on average players and thus have less money to pursue free agents with real talent, that can be real impact players, starters.

Will, I agree on Burns. That TD this past game that he gave up was the last straw for me. Did he think he had safety help over the top?? :lol: He is who he is, a player with no instincts whatsoever. At least Bud will make some plays, Artie? No, that kid is a lost cause. If they give him a 2nd contract Colbert needs his head examined for CTE.

Boyd shrugged inside and Artie bit hard and threw himself off balance. It was embarrassing. I would love to see Grimble push James down the depth chart and we draft a tight end. Unfortunately, Grimble didn't go to Penn State.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:05 am 
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DP39 wrote:
I would add, with the way the league is recently passing so much more, our OLBs should be getting even more sacks.

We have had an average of about 42 pass throw at us per game this season. That would be about 670 passes this year. That's got to be close to the record against us?

Pretty soon, D's should be getting 60+ sacks a year.


Not when so many qb's are getting rid of the ball in 2.5 seconds.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:34 am 
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Joey's Pitbull wrote:
SOCALSTEEL wrote:


Could he be assigned to cover and release the RB to the flat? The tackle looks like a dancing penguin, :lol:

His job is to disrupt the RB to the flat, so that pass rush can get home. In that thread, you'll see Greg Cosell's breakdown of Detroit doing it to James White & NE.

It's actually a nice play by Bud, who takes away two quick options and makes Dalton climb the pocket/allow pressure to take him out.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:22 am 
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DP39 wrote:
I would add, with the way the league is recently passing so much more, our OLBs should be getting even more sacks.

We have had an average of about 42 pass throw at us per game this season. That would be about 670 passes this year. That's got to be close to the record against us?

Pretty soon, D's should be getting 60+ sacks a year.


Yes, but they’re pasing on those teams that drafted the other 2015 linebackers too...andnthey’re not keeping up with Dupree.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:48 am 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Joey's Pitbull wrote:
SOCALSTEEL wrote:


Could he be assigned to cover and release the RB to the flat? The tackle looks like a dancing penguin, :lol:

His job is to disrupt the RB to the flat, so that pass rush can get home. In that thread, you'll see Greg Cosell's breakdown of Detroit doing it to James White & NE.

It's actually a nice play by Bud, who takes away two quick options and makes Dalton climb the pocket/allow pressure to take him out.


with that clip it's really taking criticism of Bud to an idiotic level. Who's the fucking dweeb who has that account? Seems like a guy that played more Madden than real football.

Jesus christ. He obviously had an assignment to either disrupt or cover the RB into the flat. He chips him and sees out of the corner of his eye that Dalton has abandoned the pass. So he redirects....ya know.....towards the ball!

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