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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:07 pm 
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franco32 wrote:
I understand what Scunge was trying to do with the stats on sacks. But, to me, raw sack numbers don't tell you the whole story.

The most effective OLBs get PRESSURES. They get near the QB, they hit the QB, they force bad throws because of pressure. They also force double teams.

I have my issues with PFF, but I think they are spot on in rating Dupree as very poor. For example, in 2017, he had only 40 pressures from 354 rushes. That means he's only getting pressure on 11% of his rushes. That is abysmal.

Most of Dupree's sacks come when he is unblocked, on a stunt with a missed blitz pickup or from a coverage sack. He simply can't beat NFL tackles. Sack stats alone mean nothing. Think about it. When was the last time you saw Dupree double teamed? Heyward, Tuitt, and Watt all get more attention that Dupree...yet Dupree can't generate pressure vs OTs and TEs in one-on-one scenarios.

He sucks. Yes, his athleticism helps him to make a play or two here and there. But let's not exaggerate here. His INT in TB was a gift thrown right at him. It's not like he had amazing coverage and cut in front of someone. He has 2 dong sacks and one sack against a Walmart greeter this year.

He's flat out terrible. Aside from no instincts, he has terrible bend. He's not particularly quick off the ball. TEs bitchslap him on runs all too frequently. And, he STILL doesn't know how to use his hands (other than critical hands to the face penalties on 3rd down).

What a Dumpster Fire of a 1st round pick.

As recently as a couple of weeks ago, the Steelers were leading the NFL in QB pressures and I think Dupree was at or near the top of the Steelers players in that stat. And I challenge you to bak up the assertion that his sacks were dong sacks. He beat OL on a stunt at least 2x. That's not a dong sack.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:08 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
franco32 wrote:
I understand what Scunge was trying to do with the stats on sacks. But, to me, raw sack numbers don't tell you the whole story.

The most effective OLBs get PRESSURES. They get near the QB, they hit the QB, they force bad throws because of pressure. They also force double teams.

I have my issues with PFF, but I think they are spot on in rating Dupree as very poor. For example, in 2017, he had only 40 pressures from 354 rushes. That means he's only getting pressure on 11% of his rushes. That is abysmal.

Most of Dupree's sacks come when he is unblocked, on a stunt with a missed blitz pickup or from a coverage sack. He simply can't beat NFL tackles. Sack stats alone mean nothing. Think about it. When was the last time you saw Dupree double teamed? Heyward, Tuitt, and Watt all get more attention that Dupree...yet Dupree can't generate pressure vs OTs and TEs in one-on-one scenarios.

He sucks. Yes, his athleticism helps him to make a play or two here and there. But let's not exaggerate here. His INT in TB was a gift thrown right at him. It's not like he had amazing coverage and cut in front of someone. He has 2 dong sacks and one sack against a Walmart greeter this year.

He's flat out terrible. Aside from no instincts, he has terrible bend. He's not particularly quick off the ball. TEs bitchslap him on runs all too frequently. And, he STILL doesn't know how to use his hands (other than critical hands to the face penalties on 3rd down).

What a Dumpster Fire of a 1st round pick.

As recently as a couple of weeks ago, the Steelers were leading the NFL in QB pressures and I think Dupree was at or near the top of the Steelers players in that stat. And I challenge you to bak up the assertion that his sacks were dong sacks. He beat OL on a stunt at least 2x. That's not a dong sack.


Even with his Horn of Africa pass rush move.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:22 pm 
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Charles Demarr wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
franco32 wrote:
I understand what Scunge was trying to do with the stats on sacks. But, to me, raw sack numbers don't tell you the whole story.

The most effective OLBs get PRESSURES. They get near the QB, they hit the QB, they force bad throws because of pressure. They also force double teams.

I have my issues with PFF, but I think they are spot on in rating Dupree as very poor. For example, in 2017, he had only 40 pressures from 354 rushes. That means he's only getting pressure on 11% of his rushes. That is abysmal.

Most of Dupree's sacks come when he is unblocked, on a stunt with a missed blitz pickup or from a coverage sack. He simply can't beat NFL tackles. Sack stats alone mean nothing. Think about it. When was the last time you saw Dupree double teamed? Heyward, Tuitt, and Watt all get more attention that Dupree...yet Dupree can't generate pressure vs OTs and TEs in one-on-one scenarios.

He sucks. Yes, his athleticism helps him to make a play or two here and there. But let's not exaggerate here. His INT in TB was a gift thrown right at him. It's not like he had amazing coverage and cut in front of someone. He has 2 dong sacks and one sack against a Walmart greeter this year.

He's flat out terrible. Aside from no instincts, he has terrible bend. He's not particularly quick off the ball. TEs bitchslap him on runs all too frequently. And, he STILL doesn't know how to use his hands (other than critical hands to the face penalties on 3rd down).

What a Dumpster Fire of a 1st round pick.

As recently as a couple of weeks ago, the Steelers were leading the NFL in QB pressures and I think Dupree was at or near the top of the Steelers players in that stat. And I challenge you to bak up the assertion that his sacks were dong sacks. He beat OL on a stunt at least 2x. That's not a dong sack.


Even with his Horn of Africa pass rush move.

Best description ever! The bad thing...….I am noticing Watt having similar Horn moves...…..going to send our defense through The Straits of Magellan.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:19 pm 
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B2B,

I don't have links but I remember each sack well. The first sack was a legitimately good move but against an UDFA rookie. He hit the edge hard and took a good angle.

The TB sack was a coverage sack. Dupree is stonewalled but Fitz steps up and Dupree comes looping back inside to sack him.

The other sack was on a stunt where the OL made a mistake and failed to slide over and pick Dupree up.

My definition of a Dong Sack is anytime you get a hustle sack without beating your man or anytime your man makes a mistake and let's you have a free shot. 2 of those 3 were Dong Sacks to me. I know you've always backed Bud. I've never quite understood why aside from the fact that he is an outlier athlete and you really prioritize that during your draft evaluation process.

I've always thought Bud would suck, even pre-draft. His speed and burst when he has to engage just isn't there. HIS FEET ALMOST STOP MOVING when he is about to engage with a blocker. He still doesn't bend well and his hands technique is still atrocious. He also suffers from brain dead moments on the field and that is instincts more than anything. Is he playing a LITTLE better on the other side this year? Maybe a bit. I'll give you that. The problem is that he's been hot garbage for so long that it doesn't take much to improve. The best gauge of how badly he sucks is how other teams game plan him. He is rarely double teamed. I only really ever see it if we drop a lot in coverage and there are extra blockers around with little to do. Almost all of his pass rushes are 1 v 1. It's hard to objectively look at those and say he is anything other than "just a guy". Certainly not deserving of a 1st round pick. I think Chickillo could put up numbers and tackles close to him if he was the full time starter.

I think everyone agrees he's not a 9 million a year guy. I probably wouldn't even pay him 6 million at this point. I just think we can do better.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:23 pm 
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I just think Bud is better than advertised. I think I gravitate to defending groupthink overboard.

Guaranteed we have no idea what they ask him to do on each play and guaranteed most of the time he does what they ask him to do... that's just reality.

I firmly believe the edges are doing what the Steelers are asking them to do, which is, most of the time, to push QB up in the pocket, to IDL or blitzers. And it's working.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:54 pm 
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Dupree’s a huge reason this defense sucks cock.

He and other paycheck thieves like Tuitt and Burns should all be jettisoned, but Coach Aviators will keep trotting these turds out there.

Embarrassing.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:23 pm 
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This defense hardly sucks cock... you might want to revise your standards for what being a good defense means in the NFL, circa 2018.

Steelers are pretty much exactly an average defense. They do have a high degree of variability, meaning they can play pretty well and then very poorly... but overall they are smack dab in the middle.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:08 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
This defense hardly sucks cock... you might want to revise your standards for what being a good defense means in the NFL, circa 2018.

Steelers are pretty much exactly an average defense. They do have a high degree of variability, meaning they can play pretty well and then very poorly... but overall they are smack dab in the middle.


With the season on the line, against the GREAT Blake Bortles, IN Heinz Field, playoff time....how'd they do?

This season, Flacco made them look stupid. Mahomes, in his second ever start I believe, threw 6 TD's and no picks....again IN HEINZ FIELD.

After an excellent first half, how'd they fair against the great Ryan Fitzpatrick in Tampa?

What's the average amount of points they've given up at home say, over the last 5 games?

C'mon dude. This defense fucking blows.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:56 pm 
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A few more timely pressures leading to turnovers, and this could be a reasonably good defense. Again, though, the lapses have been big when they've happened, which skews perception.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:12 pm 
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Mahommes is making every defense look stupid this year.

The fact is that we have been facing QBs that have been on hot streaks, playing out of their minds great, whether it was Fitzmagic, Mahommes, Joe Flacco, Matt Ryan, etc. Matt Ryan's previous two games before playing us he had 793 yards passing, 8 TDs and 0 INTs, he had really heated up his connection with Calvin Ridley, they had connected for 5 TDs in those two games, then they come to Pittsburgh, even get Freeman back and what happens against that crappy Pittsburgh defense??? Yeah.

The evidence does not paint a picture of a shitty defense, just the opposite. We have been playing some very good QBs and holding our own even with injuries, the issues are really in the secondary, Haden, Hilton and Burnett have missed time to injury and Burns has regressed. Still plenty of time for things to shake out in the secondary, still 10 games to get better.

Here is something that I wish more people would do, get a stopwatch, or use your phone and its ability to be a stopwatch and go watch highlights of Von Miller. Do you see him doing Horn of Africa wide arcs to the QBs? Yeah, I see him do it at times.

Do I see him have 4, 5, 6 seconds to get to the QB? Yeah, I do. That Denver defense will play man to man more and give their pass rush more time to get there.

How would Miller get sacks and pressure in our defense with our large cushions and soft zone coverage where not just the Tom Brady's but the Andy Dalton's can get the ball out in 2-2.5 seconds???

Dong sacks. I have watched Miller highlights where they did have 5 rushers, they did blitz and Miller looped, stunted to the interior of the O-line and met little resistance for an easy sack. When Miller does that he is awesome!!! What a beast!! When Dupree or Watt do that with Hilton blitzing and being that 5th rusher, than somehow it is not legitimate and it is a 'Dong sack'. Whatever. :roll:

To Ice, I don't know, seems like the DBs have been dropping INTs there for the taking, Haden had his chance at two INTs and dropped both in one game. That could have dramatically altered the course of the game, made it easier, more of a blowout early on.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:38 pm 
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Pabst wrote:
Will-the-Shake wrote:
The latest first round selection a perfect example. Too early to tell on him, but I'd be very pleasantly surprised to suddenly see him develop instincts to the point that he's a step ahead of what's going on, as opposed to two steps behind.

The last first round safety taken by the Steelers also looked lost during his rookie campaign. He turned out OK.

There's a weird dynamic on this board - we tend to bitch when Tomlin doesn't play rookies immediately, then we bitch when those guys play like.....rookies.


It’s been popular (and accurate) to bring up Polamalu’s struggles as a rookie. But I’d counter that by saying go back and compare Troy’s college gametape to that of Edmunds. No comparison in terms of tenacity and instincts. I’ll be very pleasantly surprised if Edmunds comes close to sniffing the rarified air of soon to be Hall-of-Famer Number 43.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:50 pm 
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I know, Scunge. If they make those plays, things look a little better, but I can't give credit for dropped INTs. The best case scenario for this defense is to make those plays when the opportunity arises. So far, it hasn't happened enough. Hopefully it evens out as the season wears on.

Incidentally, we won't be facing too many crap quarterbacks after the bye, either.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:56 am 
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Scunge wrote:
Mahommes is making every defense look stupid this year.

Agreed. For now. He's certainly not making it a solo contribution either. Not like he's some super QB with no NFL talent surrounding him. I think the proof will be over the next few years. As defenses get more film to study. More film to study generates more tendencies with the surrounding talent and eventually defenses will get better at stopping that chef offense. Then the proof Mahommes is that generational QB will reveal itself. Right now he looks promising for sure.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:05 am 
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KC wrote:
Dupree’s a huge reason this defense sucks cock.

He and other paycheck thieves like Tuitt and Burns should all be jettisoned, but Coach Aviators will keep trotting these turds out there.

Embarrassing.


I think this defense will be top 10 by the end of the year. Now what that means in a big playoff game when Tomlin will likely get outcoached, i have no idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:57 am 
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As recently as a couple of weeks ago, the Steelers were leading the NFL in QB pressures and I think Dupree was at or near the top of the Steelers players in that stat. And I challenge you to bak up the assertion that his sacks were dong sacks. He beat OL on a stunt at least 2x. That's not a dong sack.[/quote]

Even with his Horn of Africa pass rush move.[/quote]
Best description ever! The bad thing...….I am noticing Watt having similar Horn moves...…..going to send our defense through The Straits of Magellan.[/quote]

Credit Donnie Brasco with that one.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:05 am 
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Charles Demarr wrote:
As recently as a couple of weeks ago, the Steelers were leading the NFL in QB pressures and I think Dupree was at or near the top of the Steelers players in that stat. And I challenge you to bak up the assertion that his sacks were dong sacks. He beat OL on a stunt at least 2x. That's not a dong sack.


Even with his Horn of Africa pass rush move.[/quote]
Best description ever! The bad thing...….I am noticing Watt having similar Horn moves...…..going to send our defense through The Straits of Magellan.[/quote]

Credit Donnie Brasco with that one.[/quote]

Thanks for the shout-out but I think that was Still Mills saying?


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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:37 pm 
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Blake Bortles, who shit on the Steelers defense TWICE last season, was just benched by the Jags.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:51 pm 
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KC wrote:
Blake Bortles, who took advantage of the fact that the Jags running game shit on the Steelers defense TWICE last season was just benched by the Jags.

Fixed

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