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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:55 pm 
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franco32 wrote:
7.5 million for some dong sacks and complete disappearing acts through not just games but parts of seasons? You might be right that the Steelers re-sign him, but he's not going to magically get better. He is who he is. Great straight line athlete. Very poor changing of direction. Horrid instincts. Even worse technique. Whipped by TEs.

What dong sacks? And he's been pretty good vs the run, not the worst in coverage. I agree with Scunge that I fully expect him to be re-signed in that $7M range.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:28 pm 
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Scunge wrote:
You know it is funny, but I think Dupree is playing himself into a 2nd contract with the Steelers.

First, he may have that $9.2 million 5th year option for 2019 on the books but the Steelers will most likely sign him to a new deal for less than that. He won't make $9 million per season.

Some may say, Dupree is a bum, what has he done?

This season he has 19 tackles, 3 sacks, 4 passes defensed, 1 INT, 1 TD scored off of that INT, and 1 Forced Fumble. Sorry, but Jarvis Jones never performed like that, you guys can spin it all you want.

If the Steelers are going to pay Vince Williams an average of $6.2 million then resigning Dupree to $7, 7.5 million per season is easily possible.

Many of you may hate the idea but I think it is going to happen. My prediction? Bud probably ends the season with 8 sacks and the Steelers in the offseason give him a 5 year, $35 million deal and structure it in a way where that old $9.2 million 5th year option turns into a first year cap hit of some $4 million. So they free up $5 million, have Dupree under a new contract and hope for the best that he continues to improve.


Thanks for taking the time Scunge. I admit that I may have an unrealistic expectation of him being 1st round. I cant remember if the sacks are quality sacks or did he feast when someone else did 90% of the dirty work?

Anyways...points taken


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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:55 pm 
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I guess B2B and me are the only two in Bud's corner, so to speak.

All I know is that the two OLBs are playing better this season. The switching of sides has worked, and they have even been flipping them at times to where I have seen Dupree rushing from his old spot at LOLB.

The first 6 games and our two starting OLBs have combined for 9 sacks. That is on pace for 24 sacks. The combo of Harrison/Woodley had 27.5 sacks in 2008 and 23.5 sacks in 2009. That was their two best seasons together, that is the 'gold standard' what all of you crave, right? Dupree/Watt are challenging that type of production. So what the hell are people complaining about? When you look at it from that perspective, aren't some of you being silly? What if Watt and Bud end the season with 28 sacks, set a new record for total combined sacks at OLB? Will you guys just accuse them of getting nothing more than Dong sacks?

The whole thing about Dong sacks is ridiculous to me and always has been. This past game, Stephon Tuitt had 1 sack, 2 QB hits and basically was responsible for Hargrave's sack. He got so much pressure that he practically forced Dalton right into Hargrave waiting arms. Pass rushing does not happen in a vacuum, it is nuanced and always has been and even Deebo and Woodley back in the day were not the dominant pass rushers that many think they were, that many remember that they were. I made a post where I showed how hot and cold they were as pass rushers, how they would have 7 or 8 game where they had no sacks, how they would get sacks in bunches, how one would be cold and the other would be hot. Many seem to think that is not the case, but you are wrong.

What we really need is for a better 3rd OLB in the rotation, Chickillo is really bad and I don't think he even makes the team elsewhere in the NFL. I am hoping that Ola Adeniyi is able to come off IR and dislodge Chick as that 3rd OLB, he has legitimate pass rush ability and appeared to be a capable special teams player. Adeniyi could make Watt and Dupree even better and keep them fresh and rested down the stretch.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:56 pm 
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Stosh-67 wrote:
My biggest fault with Bud is that his mind is stuck in the mud.
He has the physical tools, the measurables.

He spends too much time watching, watching the play unfold as others around him are reacting to the play.
Like there is too much thinking and thinking about his responsibilities.

He needs to do a much better job of cutting loose and getting after the QB.
He is too big and too fast to be stoned play after play.

I think coaching is also a big part of the reason he is not the player he should be.
Forget getting to the QB.......
How many times have we seen him do something entirely different in approaching the pass rush?
Spin, dip, rip, insane bull rush to dump his guy in the lap of the QB.
Its alot of the same.


I was reading some of the intel coming out of college and the evaluation had him struggling when needing to be cerebral. I thought that was the knock on Timmons also and the dot.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:59 pm 
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Scunge wrote:
I guess B2B and me are the only two in Bud's corner, so to speak.

All I know is that the two OLBs are playing better this season. The switching of sides has worked, and they have even been flipping them at times to where I have seen Dupree rushing from his old spot at LOLB.

The first 6 games and our two starting OLBs have combined for 9 sacks. That is on pace for 24 sacks. The combo of Harrison/Woodley had 27.5 sacks in 2008 and 23.5 sacks in 2009. That was their two best seasons together, that is the 'gold standard' what all of you crave, right? Dupree/Watt are challenging that type of production. So what the hell are people complaining about? When you look at it from that perspective, aren't some of you being silly? What if Watt and Bud end the season with 28 sacks, set a new record for total combined sacks at OLB? Will you guys just accuse them of getting nothing more than Dong sacks?

The whole thing about Dong sacks is ridiculous to me and always has been. This past game, Stephon Tuitt had 1 sack, 2 QB hits and basically was responsible for Hargrave's sack. He got so much pressure that he practically forced Dalton right into Hargrave waiting arms. Pass rushing does not happen in a vacuum, it is nuanced and always has been and even Deebo and Woodley back in the day were not the dominant pass rushers that many think they were, that many remember that they were. I made a post where I showed how hot and cold they were as pass rushers, how they would have 7 or 8 game where they had no sacks, how they would get sacks in bunches, how one would be cold and the other would be hot. Many seem to think that is not the case, but you are wrong.

What we really need is for a better 3rd OLB in the rotation, Chickillo is really bad and I don't think he even makes the team elsewhere in the NFL. I am hoping that Ola Adeniyi is able to come off IR and dislodge Chick as that 3rd OLB, he has legitimate pass rush ability and appeared to be a capable special teams player. Adeniyi could make Watt and Dupree even better and keep them fresh and rested down the stretch.


great stuff...I see what I see..... but to your point the end generated result is a contribution of things and not so clear cut as I may want to point out.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:12 pm 
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Scunge wrote:
All I know is that the two OLBs are playing better this season. The switching of sides has worked

Seems like some coach somewhere should get some kind of credit.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:14 pm 
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Well that is a great point, who knows maybe it was Joey Porter that was pushing for them to switch spots. But then that wouldn't fit into the narrative that Porter is a bad coach and doesn't know what he is doing, right?

I have a feeling that this topic is going to turn into 12 pages...going to be a fun two weeks as FC pointed out.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:06 pm 
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Dupree’s a useless, tits on a bull turd.

Nothing more.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:20 pm 
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Some perspective on the edge rushers of the 2015 NFL draft after 4 years now. That is plenty of time to see who is on the rise, who is getting better and those that are falling by the wayside, trending downward, I think many of you might be surprised at the results.

Frank Clark 27.5 sacks
Vic Beasley, 25.5 sacks
Preston Smith, 20.5 sacks
Bud Dupree, 17.5 sacks
Markus Golden, 17 sacks
Z Smith, 15.5 sacks
Shane Ray 14 sacks
Eli Harold 8 sacks
Shaq Thompson 5 sacks
Randy Gregory 2 sacks

So, Bud Dupree is 4th in sacks from that 2015 class of edge rushers. I personally loved Frank Clark, felt he was an absolute stud but he had character concerns and I knew that he would fall to the second round. Steelers wouldn't even touch him in that round, Seattle pounced on him immediately.

It is one thing to look at this 4 years from now, well 3 years and 6 games from that draft. But how are these pass rushers trending from say last season and the 6 games this season. How are they trending in their last 22 games?? Wouldn't that be a true indicator to show what players are ascending, which are descending, disappearing??

2017-2018, the last 22 games

Frank Clark, 14.5 sacks
Bud Dupree, 9 sacks
Z Smith, 9 sacks
Preston Smith, 8 sacks
Vic Beasley, 6 sacks
Eli Harold, 5 sacks
Shaq Thompson, 4 sacks
Shane Ray, 2 sacks
Randy Gregory, 1 sack
Markus Golden, .5 sack

Some players like a Vic Beasley and a Markus Golden just haven't been able to replicate their one great season. Beasley had that one monster 15.5 season, and Golden had that 12.5 season but the past 22 games show them not able to build upon that great initial starts to their careers. They are trending downward. Even someone like Preston Smith is trending downward, he has 0 sacks this year.

And there is Bud Dupree, 4th overall in sacks from that draft class, and tied with his team mate from Kentucky, Z Smith, with 9 sacks in just the past 22 games, second only to Frank Clark's 14.5 sacks.

Sorry KC, and sorry to the other Dupree haters out there, but the Steelers are looking at this and saying to themselves, hey he is improving, we did not reach for him, who else is doing better from that draft class? Frank Clark is clearly the best from that draft class but after that who knows?

The Steelers will keep him and reward him with a contract like 5 years, $35-40 million. Yes, a bitter pill for some of you to swallow but it is going to happen.

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Last edited by Scunge on Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:45 pm 
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Not going to argue with your numbers or logic, Scunge. But aren't we, or better stated, the Steelers, expecting more than just sacks? And I'm not saying this because I'm trying to run Buddy down. I actually believe there's an untapped upside to our boy.

So where does he stand on TFL, FF, Int, QBP, etc. And while we're at it, how about percent of dropping into coverage. If looking at ascension/descension in sack performance, shouldn't we consider how the backer is being used?

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:01 pm 
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Oh, I totally agree, and look at what Dupree has done this year.

Depending on who you talk to he has either 3 or 4 passes defensed.

He has 1 INT and he returned it for a TD. He has 1 forced fumble.

Dupree has done all of that in the first 6 games this season. It is ironic that the logic was moving Dupree to ROLB would simplify things for him, not ask him to drop as much or whatever and yet he is statistically having his best season in terms of off-ball duties, dropping into coverage, making plays on the ball, coming up with an INT, scoring a TD, forcing a fumble. He almost had a second TD off of Watt's sack and strip of Ryan in the Atlanta game but the ball got kicked around and Fort ultimately landed on it. I know this narrative has been drawn up that he is always standing around, watching the action, but not this year, he seems to be around the football more, and the stats prove it, 3-4 passes defensed, 1 INT, 1 TD, 1 FF, there are some OLBs that don't do that in an entire season.

I do know that last last season it was reported that TJ Watt was 2nd in dropping into coverage and Dupree was ranked 5th in terms of dropping into coverage among edge rushers/OLBs.

Hard to get the numbers but I can't imagine that Atlanta's Vic Beasley drops into coverage as much as our OLBs, or that Seattle wastes Frank Clark in coverage.

I am not saying that Bud Dupree is the second coming of James Harrison or Lamar Woodley but he is not as bad as some of you make him out to be. He is in Jason Worilds territory to me and I think we would have signed him to a decent contract had he not just up and retired.

Edge rushers are hard to find and Dupree is somebody who can complement Watt. It is important that they not overpay for him though, I don't want to see him making $10 million per year or paid like he is a Von Miller that would be crazy of course.

And to your point, 7, yeah, how the edge rushers are used can inflate their sacks. I mean, if Frank Clark were taken out of that Seattle defense and used in our 3-4 would he be the same player? Would he lead this draft class with 27.5 sacks? I don't know for certain. Maybe he is the type of player that needs to be moving forward, needs more and more rush attempts to get those sacks. You look at Dupree's teammate at Kentucky, Smith, he is really more of a quasi DE/OLB, they have always had that type of player in their scheme, a chess piece that they can move around, line up everywhere, as an OLB, as a DE, part of a rotation. Smith through the 2018 season is playing 65% of the snaps but in previous years for the Ravens he has been at 50% or less. I think that helps a player if they are in a system where they are fresh and rotate.

Dupree? The Steelers have long thought it the best practice to leave them (OLBs) out there for most of the snaps. Bud has taken 87% of the snaps this year. Last year it was 81% but that needs some explanation. He did not play the first game of the year last season. So, he had 795 snaps of the 909 snaps in the remaining 15 games, so he was on the field for 87% of the snaps last season too.

Again, if you have your OLBs on the field so damn much, they are bound to get tired, it has to impact their ability to pass rush as the game wears on. We have seen a TJ Watt or a Dupree drop in coverage and try and cover a RB/WR/TE 30 yards down the field and then on the very next play expected to beat a 330 pound OT for a sack. You just don't see other teams do that with their edge rushers as often or like ever.

Some players, like Frank Clark in the Seattle defense he gets blows, he gets rest throughout a game and the season. He is playing 69% of the snaps this season, and last season he was at 67%. There is something to this, I think a player that is well rested is more effective as a pass rusher, it does make a difference.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:33 am 
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KC wrote:
Dupree’s a useless, tits on a bull turd.

Nothing more.

Yep and we alll know Colbert will sign him to an extension.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:00 am 
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I would add, with the way the league is recently passing so much more, our OLBs should be getting even more sacks.

We have had an average of about 42 pass throw at us per game this season. That would be about 670 passes this year. That's got to be close to the record against us?

Pretty soon, D's should be getting 60+ sacks a year.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:29 am 
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DuPree has improved this season. Still, he's not making anyone forget Woodley & Harrison. He's on pace for 8 sacks, has 1 forced fumble, a pick 6 - He's not the biggest hole on the defense.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:38 am 
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44LetzRide wrote:
DuPree has improved this season. Still, he's not making anyone forget Woodley & Harrison. He's on pace for 8 sacks, has 1 forced fumble, a pick 6 - He's not the biggest hole on the defense.

While I'm on record as one of those "Dupree Haters", I certainly can't argue with this...

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:53 am 
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I would much rather have Dupree on the field than Jarvis Jones.

I would take Worilds over Dupree at this point, by the end of the season I might see it differently so yeah I could see the argument that Dupree is approaching Worilds territory.

Worilds had 22, 23 QB hits in last 2 seasons. I was starting to like him his final season and believe it really hurt the team when he decided he no longer wanted to play football.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:02 pm 
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Not trying to be a ball washer but thanks for the contributions.
Scunge...I think you put me in my place...lol
I have a h@rd on for Bud...its like I almost look to have an agenda on him but yet he is a solid system OLB.
Maybe we can debate Tuitt or Artie next. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:50 pm 
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Joey's Pitbull wrote:
Maybe we can debate Tuitt or Artie next. :D

Artie is a major liability on this defense, and could be the difference between another Lombardi and another "almost but not quite" season...

...move along, there is no debate to be had here...

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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:24 pm 
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"The Steelers will keep him and reward him with a contract like 5 years, $35-40 million. Yes, a bitter pill for some of you to swallow but it is going to happen."

I agree with everything youre saying Scunge.... but I disagree about the contract extension. The big unknown is the two young olb we have on our club and how they develop. We have Adams on the practice squad and If Ola comes back and plays well this year... I think Colbert will be happy to pay his 10 million + salary for next year and let all three battle it out next camp.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:56 pm 
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Scunge wrote:

Sorry KC, and sorry to the other Dupree haters out there, but the Steelers are looking at this and saying to themselves, hey he is improving, we did not reach for him, who else is doing better from that draft class? Frank Clark is clearly the best from that draft class but after that who knows?

The Steelers will keep him and reward him with a contract like 5 years, $35-40 million. Yes, a bitter pill for some of you to swallow but it is going to happen.


Question for consideration- is Bud Dupree better or worse than Clark Haggans?


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