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 Post subject: 6 Turnovers
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:21 pm 
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Ok Boys.
Last diagnostic thread of the week.
And then on to KC.

The only way the Browns could have stayed close was with turnovers.

Hope the PS look at the game tape, play design, play call, packages, etc.....and learn from these mistakes. Turnovers are on players. What leads up to those turnovers are also on coaches.

The 6 turnovers.

1. Bad Ben. 1st and 10 at the 18. Red Zone turnovers are killers. They take 7 to minimum 3 points off the board. Was 3 points the difference in winning 24-21? Red Zone effeciency has doomed the PS the past few years. 1st and 10, rolling out, trying to extend the play, trying to squeeze in to AB, not a play a 15 year vet makes. Throw it away. see video attached or Youtube video at :32 second mark.
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2018090901/2018/REG1/steelers@browns?icampaign=GC_schedule_rr#menu=gameinfo%7CcontentId%3A0ap3000000959349&tab=analyze&analyze=playbyplay

2. The long Ben INT. With Ben and AB on the same page, seeing single coverage and the middle of the field wide open, a 10-12-15 yard slant would have went 30+ yards and who knows with AB in the open field may have gone much longer or for 7. No need to throw the ball 60 yards in the air on a this type of day. Not smart football. Get out of deep enemy territory. Where is the communication between these two, the audible or I'm sure playing together into their 9th year, they must have a quick gesture that indicates slant. Steelers heavy package, 2 TE, FB, run look. 8 defenders in the box, tight in the box, all 8 with-in 3 yards of LOS, 9th guy ( S ) 7 yards of ball on opposite side of AB. Screamed quick 10 yard slant to AB with middle of field wide open. I put this on Ben, AB and in game coaching and situational awareness. See link below or Youtube video at 2:58 mark.
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2018090901/2018/REG1/steelers@browns?icampaign=GC_schedule_rr#menu=gameinfo%7CcontentId%3A0ap3000000959450&tab=analyze&analyze=playbyplay

3. Jessie James INT. Ball went thru his hands. It was a quick read. Needs to catch that. I am not down on JJ. he is a pretty good #2. He knew it was his fault, as I believe he made the tackle on the INT and immediatley put his hands on his helmet as to say it was his bad. still think he will be a big part of the passing game to provide some quick hit 5-7 yard pitch and catches between hash marks. Big target. Do not have specific video. Youtube video at 4:08 mark.

4. The Connor fumble. This was 4th quarter, Steelers up 21-7, 7:44 left in game. First attempt at starting a drive to kill clock. Heavy package, 2 TE, FB. There is a better overhead video of this play, if anyone has it, please add to thread. Just a poor play / technique by Villy. Do not know what he was thinking. Basically comes out of his stance with a big right hand swinging punch to Garrets shoulder. All he needed to do was get out of his stance and get two hands up on Garrett, as the play was going to the opposite side. What was Villy thinking. Play was still not going anywhere with a stacked box and an opposing OC / Haley knowing his former coaches tendencies to turtle. Right side penetration would have sent this run for a loss. From this carry on, Connor had 8 carries for 14 yards. 23 carries for 121 yards prior to the offensive slow down. 8 carries for 14 yards in heavy set turtle mode packages.
Youtube video below at 8:00 mark.
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2018090901/2018/REG1/steelers@browns?icampaign=GC_schedule_rr#menu=gameinfo%7CcontentId%3A0ap3000000959728&tab=analyze&analyze=playbyplay

5. The Ben strip sack fumble by Garrett. This was 4th quarter, Steelers up 21-14, 7:32 left in game. 12 second later. Second attempt at starting a drive to kill clock with a run. Bad snap below the knees killed any success of this play. Bad blocking scheme. Terrible blocking scheme. Any blocking scheme that leaves the opposing teams best player un-blocked at the LOS is asking for trouble. Villy downblocks the guard while leaving Garrett a free path to Ben. As Decastro is tasked to be quicker than Garret by stepping back, pulling and trying to sprint 5 yards to intercept Garrett, who only had to run in a straight line at Ben. Not smart play design, play call at all. How do you give the opponents best defender a clear path to the QB. This play was supposed to be a draw to Connor with DD kicking out Garrett. We saw the speed of Garrett earlier in the game when he dropped back into coverage about 5-7 yards, followed JuJu a few yards, before stopping, changing direction and sprinting 15+ yards to hit Ben on the play that drew a flag. Youtube video below at 2:00 mark. Maybe a good snap and JC gets the handoff and DD gets in position to block MG. There was a lot of running room. One other note on this play. notice the spacing for a run play when we had 3 WR in the game, rather than 2 TE, FB with tight formations.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2018090901/2018/REG1/steelers@browns?icampaign=GC_schedule_rr#menu=gameinfo%7CcontentId%3A0ap3000000959723&tab=analyze&analyze=playbyplay

6. OT. - Ben sack, ball pops up for return into FG territory. Gilbert just did not get out of stance and his guy blew by him forcing Ben to step up. With 2 defenders showing A gap blitz looks, Connor had to step up to help Pouncey with the immediate and closest threat to the pocket and Ben. Ben stepped up and was looking deep. Would have to see the all 22 ( anyone ?) but seemed like all 3 WR were running 15-20+ yard routes? looked like all three WR wound up running to the same vicinity, tightening the field even more. Line of scrimmage was our own 38. With :48 seconds in OT, 1 time out in hand, maybe 10-12 yards and pick up the first, get to mid field. Pre-snap, Play Clock was not rolling, still 16 seconds on play clock. Plenty of time. Browns showing possibly 6 guys rushing the passer, with 2 blitzers, 9 defenders pretty close to LOS................Audible? Adjust a WR out further, put one in motion? Audible to a hot read, after seeing the 6 man rush?
Youtube video below at 11:15 mark



Thats all I got.
Last diagnostic thread of the week,
On to Cleveland. Hopefully we got enough bad football out of the way for the rest of the first half.

Trivia.
77.
I know you are pretty good at these, but no pressure.

What was the last Steelers game in which they turned the ball over 6 or more times and did not lose?

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 Post subject: Re: 6 Turnovers
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:26 pm 
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Stosh-67 wrote:
6. OT. - Ben sack, ball pops up for return into FG territory. Gilbert just did not get out of stance and his guy blew by him forcing Ben to step up. With 2 defenders showing A gap blitz looks, Connor had to step up to help Pouncey with the immediate and closest threat to the pocket and Ben. Ben stepped up and was looking deep. Would have to see the all 22 ( anyone ?) but seemed like all 3 WR were running 15-20+ yard routes?


The shortest route was AB who broke open about 14 yds downfield over the middle. He ran to the safety with the CB on his hip, made contact with the safety, did a 360 spin to the inside and lost both of them. Got very open with room to run.

Washington and JuJu were both on deep routes... Washington to the corner, JuJu to the post.

I can't tell for sure where Ben was going with the football.


Last edited by Havoc on Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 6 Turnovers
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:52 pm 
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Quote:
I can't tell for sure where Ben was going with the football.


Don’t be hard on yourself. Ben couldn’t tell you either.


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 Post subject: Re: 6 Turnovers
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:56 pm 
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The pre and post-turtle stats for Conner are telling

Reeks of dumbfuckedness

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 Post subject: Re: 6 Turnovers
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:53 pm 
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Good thread.

1.
Quote:
1st and 10, rolling out, trying to extend the play, trying to squeeze in to AB, not a play a 15 year vet makes.

worst play of the day... but, bear in mind, Tom Brady did nearly the same thing late last year... think it was vs Miami. It happens. Hopefully not too often!

2. Play as called had every eligible receiver wide open, so I don't think it was a bad call. AB's route was a stop or stutter and go, to which AB added (apparently unnecessarily) a skinny post across the safety's face vs C3. Yes, some of it is WR read it one way and WR read it the other, but when Ben let go of that ball it was a huge play with AB 5 yards behind the D. Blame it on lack of practicing that play together-- Ben said they hadn't practiced it that week.

4.
Quote:
Basically comes out of his stance with a big right hand swinging punch to Garrets shoulder. All he needed to do was get out of his stance and get two hands up on Garrett, as the play was going to the opposite side. What was Villy thinking.

that's normal operating procedure on a run the other way with ZBS. Villy's job is to bump Garrett and get his momentum going in the wrong direction, then get upfield to second level.

5. pretty sure that is a PA pass and not a draw. On PA, often the pulling guard is responsible for a molly block-- pulling and pass blocking the opposite side edge. The Steelers do this a couple of times every game for years. Decastro is an All-Pro guard, who might be the best pulling guard in the NFL. It's not unreasonable for him to be tasked to make that block; for whatever reason he was just slow or awkward getting there and, because of low snap, Garrett wasn't slowed by the PA. Those two things probably go together. I'd put that TO squarely on Pouncey.

6. on all-22, you can see that Ben recognizes Gilbert has whiffed, steps up in the pocket and has no one immediately open. Ben actually anticipates AB coming open off a spin move (in the center of the field, maybe10 yards downfield) and tries to get it to him, getting strip sacked just as the ball is about to come out. It was probably a tenth of a second from being a huge play that probably ends the game with a Steelers win.

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 Post subject: Re: 6 Turnovers
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:54 pm 
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Havoc wrote:
Excellent breakdown, Stosh

Stosh-67 wrote:
6. OT. - Ben sack, ball pops up for return into FG territory. Gilbert just did not get out of stance and his guy blew by him forcing Ben to step up. With 2 defenders showing A gap blitz looks, Connor had to step up to help Pouncey with the immediate and closest threat to the pocket and Ben. Ben stepped up and was looking deep. Would have to see the all 22 ( anyone ?) but seemed like all 3 WR were running 15-20+ yard routes?


The shortest route was AB who broke open about 14 yds downfield over the middle. He ran to the safety with the CB on his hip, made contact with the safety, did a 360 spin to the inside and lost both of them. Got very open with room to run.

Washington and JuJu were both on deep routes... Washington to the corner, JuJu to the post.

I can't tell for sure where Ben was going with the football.

on the all-22, it's obvious he's going to AB... Ben actually starts to throw before AB comes open but he saw that AB would be the first guy open, and for a huge play.

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 Post subject: Re: 6 Turnovers
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:57 pm 
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955876 wrote:
Quote:
I can't tell for sure where Ben was going with the football.


Don’t be hard on yourself. Ben couldn’t tell you either.


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 Post subject: Re: 6 Turnovers
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:10 pm 
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:lol: :lol:

Well done B2B. Well done.

That was hilarious. Hadn’t seen it before.


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 Post subject: Re: 6 Turnovers
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:19 pm 
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955876 wrote:
:lol: :lol:

Well done B2B. Well done.

That was hilarious. Hadn’t seen it before.

Salut!

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 Post subject: Re: 6 Turnovers
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:46 pm 
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Jesse James is a fuckin' turd.

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 Post subject: Re: 6 Turnovers
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:30 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Good thread.

1.
Quote:
1st and 10, rolling out, trying to extend the play, trying to squeeze in to AB, not a play a 15 year vet makes.

worst play of the day... but, bear in mind, Tom Brady did nearly the same thing late last year... think it was vs Miami. It happens. Hopefully not too often!


I think Unitas did the same thing vs. the Cardinals in 1966.

Montana also screwed the pooch like that vs. Rams in 1985.

:lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: 6 Turnovers
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:50 pm 
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Obviously wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Good thread.

1.
Quote:
1st and 10, rolling out, trying to extend the play, trying to squeeze in to AB, not a play a 15 year vet makes.

worst play of the day... but, bear in mind, Tom Brady did nearly the same thing late last year... think it was vs Miami. It happens. Hopefully not too often!


I think Unitas did the same thing vs. the Cardinals in 1966.

Montana also screwed the pooch like that vs. Rams in 1985.

:lol: :lol:


:lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: 6 Turnovers
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:08 pm 
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Was it...., October 24, 1965 at Philadelphia Eagles. Steelers fumbled 5 times losing 1. Steelers 20 Eagles 14. Followed by (the very next week) October 31, 1965 Dallas Cowboys. Steelers fumbled 6 times losing 2. Steelers 22 Cowboys 13. Those are the only two games they won that season.


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 Post subject: Re: 6 Turnovers
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:13 pm 
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I heard this on Sirius 88 today. All QBs will have the periodic 5 turnover game. The difference between the good QBs and the great QBs is that the great ones grind out a win or at least a chance to win. Ben did that somehow, it is just a wide left did in the drive.

It is actually quite amazing he had the PS in that situation and consequently for me, it has made this tie go down a little easier.


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 Post subject: Re: 6 Turnovers
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:23 pm 
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It was only a tie because the team we were playing doesn’t know what a W looks like as a team and the QB is a career journeyman type.

We got lucky.


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 Post subject: Re: 6 Turnovers
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:17 pm 
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KC wrote:
Jesse James is a fuckin' turd.


Mediocre at his best. I’d look at him a little differently if he had taken any doubt out of the refs minds and held onto the ball against New England when crossing the goal line. That play is his career in a nutshell - and was a kick in the nuts to Steeler fans everywhere; it still hasn’t worn off for me. What happened versus Cleveland felt like an extension of the NE play. Blunder is following this guy around right now.


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 Post subject: Re: 6 Turnovers
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:29 am 
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Steelafan77 wrote:
Was it...., October 24, 1965 at Philadelphia Eagles. Steelers fumbled 5 times losing 1. Steelers 20 Eagles 14. Followed by (the very next week) October 31, 1965 Dallas Cowboys. Steelers fumbled 6 times losing 2. Steelers 22 Cowboys 13. Those are the only two games they won that season.

Steelers are 2-33 in their last 35 games when turning the ball over 4 or more time since 1997.
1997 was the last game the Steelers had 6 or more turn overs and still won or did not lose.
24-22 win over the Colts.
Kordell fumble, plus a Bettis fumble in first half
Kordell is Spelled by Tomzak after the half. Who threw two picks in second half.
Another Bettis fumble, George fumble amounted to 6 turnovers.

A first half Carnel Lake sack, strip of Harbrough with recovery and TD was the difference.

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 Post subject: Re: 6 Turnovers
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:55 am 
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Will-the-Shake wrote:
KC wrote:
Jesse James is a fuckin' turd.


Mediocre at his best. I’d look at him a little differently if he had taken any doubt out of the refs minds and held onto the ball against New England when crossing the goal line. That play is his career in a nutshell - and was a kick in the nuts to Steeler fans everywhere; it still hasn’t worn off for me. What happened versus Cleveland felt like an extension of the NE play. Blunder is following this guy around right now.


James went from hero to mumble bumble stumble in the blink of an eye vs Pats. He has to make that play according to the rules last year.

In 3 of the last 5 games, we had...

The loss to the Patriots
The loss to JAX
The tie with the Browns


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 Post subject: Re: 6 Turnovers
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:13 am 
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Havoc wrote:
Will-the-Shake wrote:
KC wrote:
Jesse James is a fuckin' turd.


Mediocre at his best. I’d look at him a little differently if he had taken any doubt out of the refs minds and held onto the ball against New England when crossing the goal line. That play is his career in a nutshell - and was a kick in the nuts to Steeler fans everywhere; it still hasn’t worn off for me. What happened versus Cleveland felt like an extension of the NE play. Blunder is following this guy around right now.


James went from hero to mumble bumble stumble in the blink of an eye vs Pats. He has to make that play according to the rules last year.

In 3 of the last 5 games, we had...

The loss to the Patriots
The loss to JAX
The tie with the Browns



Wow. 3 games where coach Tomlins traits shined.

Pats. Turtle the lead against the "last" team in the world, one should turtle the lead and stop trying to score point. Then wait, watch and wonder with every last person in the stadium while the refs and NY made a decision, rather than preparing for the worse scenario. And getting ready for the single biggest play of the entire season..........Then to look like that hot mess of a last play. Unprepared.

Jax. Overlooked the Jags, as he said, "everyone knows its inevitable that the the Steelers and Pats would meet up down the road" plus, Mitchell taunting and banging on Jags locker room door. Unprepared and Outcoached. In game adjustments are bottom tier.

Browns. Prepared for this game as if it was the 5th pre-season game = Unprepared. This team was not ready to play and execute at an NFL level. Not sharp. Not focused. Starts at the top. Poor personnel implementation. Poor snap distribution for putting the best players on the team. For not rotating in players, especially on a AFC North type of battle, if you will. Unprepared.

This team is more unprepared amd put behind the eight ball..................week after week.......................long before kick-off............more than any team in football.

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 Post subject: Re: 6 Turnovers
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:26 am 
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Thanks for the all 22 looks Hvoc and B2b.

Just can not see how we did not audible and adjust when Ben saw 6 guys looking to rush the passer and 8 close to the LOS..............with 16 seconds on the play clock ( time clock not rolling ) that Ben did not audible someone into a shorter route, a crossing route, a slant, a 7-9 yard curl, etc.

And without the all-22...........When Ben looks to throw the ball, I can not see any target with-in 12 yards of the LOS.

He needed to audible to mix it up a bit.

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 Post subject: Re: 6 Turnovers
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:00 am 
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This play is painful to watch. Gilbert gets tooled. On a positive, look at JJ on Garrett. Rides him out of the play.

https://twitter.com/Alex_Kozora/status/ ... 73408?s=19


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 Post subject: Re: 6 Turnovers
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:17 am 
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Yep that was ball game. Nothing but grass ahead of AB there.

Jesus Gilbert played bad. The Oline as a whole was straight up tooled most of the game.


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