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 Post subject: Re: Play Action?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:16 am 
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Stairway 2 Seven wrote:
If they dont incorporate play action into this offense and continue using 1 rb for all the plays then this haleyball 2.0.


Unfortunately, Haley used 3 or 4 RB in his offence on Sunday. It has already been said, but I don't think hammering 1 guy all game was exclusively Haley's idea. It was and still is Tomlin's thing! Now, you can say they had Bell (very arguably the best back in the league), so they wanted him on the field in every situation, but it is still not smart football.


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 Post subject: Re: Play Action?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:22 am 
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Then to summarize this thread:

Haley arrives to protect Ben; minimized play action because the ball should be out of your hands before pressure comes and coverage has time to engage. (QB sneak possibly eliminated too.?)

2018 season opener sees slop conditions and new coordinator. However, Ben seems to be holding the ball too long, where play action would help slow the pressure and freeze the coverage and in fact might be necessary. Potentially they need to double down on the Haley speed ball philosophy. The hybrid with minimized play action will be a failure. Ben and Fitch might be conflating philosophies to the detriment of the offense.

Conditions might have masked the new coordinators philosophy. Too early to get a read. Standby for more evidence.


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 Post subject: Re: Play Action?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:53 am 
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Jeemie wrote:
Steelafan77 wrote:
I'm just going to say after one game Fichtner hasn't proven to be the better coordinator. Looks much the same as the last coordinator. Of course the offense not efficiently functioning didn't really help in this one game eval either. It's a wait to see. If it stays like or even resembles what unfolded week one throughout the season it's gonna be a very rough ride. I believe that this team will find it's groove and progressively get much better than week one's performance.


I don’t think you can say this game is indicative of the type of game Fichtner will call.

I think conditions and what happened in game very much dictated the type of game he ended up calling.

And once the Ben/AB chemistry was shown to be off (plus the fact the Browns’ DBs did an excellent job neutralizing AB...Ward looks to be the real deal) and Ben got careless with the football, Fichtner’s and Tomlin’s asses most definitely puckered. I’m sure they were thrilled beyond belief to be up 21-7 and just wanted to get the hell out of Dodge. Rotating the RBs might have helped there.


There was no problem with the game conditions to start the game. The first 2 drives were small ball.

There was a video last week on steelers.com ... Labs talked about Tomlin's early season philosophy regarding offense. Said it's Tomlin's philosophy to "not beat yourself early in the season" (exact words). Now I'm paraphrasing.... Labs basically said he did not expect a wide open offense due to Tomlin's early season football philosophy regarding offense.


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 Post subject: Re: Play Action?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:02 am 
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What’s also very telling is the number of players and coaches that say the Steelers always play the same way. I’ve heard hasselbeck jake long and Brady and others like Arians say that. Even years apart with different coaches, different players Steelers always seem to take the same mental approach.

Just shows it’s very ingrained culture. Why I wish they would hire more from the outside


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 Post subject: Re: Play Action?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:07 am 
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Remember when Ben had his foot mangled and they incorporated a ton of Pistol? Then Ben went out and had one of his best string of games.

I don't understand why they don't invoke more of this formation. Ben isn't exactly the most quick/efficient any more to turn himself around.

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 Post subject: Re: Play Action?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:21 am 
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it's still yggy wrote:
What’s also very telling is the number of players and coaches that say the Steelers always play the same way. I’ve heard hasselbeck jake long and Brady and others like Arians say that. Even years apart with different coaches, different players Steelers always seem to take the same mental approach.

Just shows it’s very ingrained culture. Why I wish they would hire more from the outside

Haley was a bad OC and needed to be let go. But the style and scheme of the offense is all Tomlin and A2...organizational philosophy. This how they want to play.
Handing the ball off to the RB over 30 times a game just doesn’t consistently win in the NFL anymore. But...”we do what we do”...


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 Post subject: Re: Play Action?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:25 am 
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it's still yggy wrote:
What’s also very telling is the number of players and coaches that say the Steelers always play the same way. I’ve heard hasselbeck jake long and Brady and others like Arians say that. Even years apart with different coaches, different players Steelers always seem to take the same mental approach.

Just shows it’s very ingrained culture. Why I wish they would hire more from the outside


It is ingrained in the culture.

Tunch on SNR just now... I'm paraphrasing... talked about the Eagles had to run a wide open aggressive offense vs Patriots in the SB because you have to match the Patriots scoring when you play them, but vs teams like the Browns you do not have to run the offense that way.


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 Post subject: Re: Play Action?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:31 am 
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Havoc wrote:
it's still yggy wrote:
What’s also very telling is the number of players and coaches that say the Steelers always play the same way. I’ve heard hasselbeck jake long and Brady and others like Arians say that. Even years apart with different coaches, different players Steelers always seem to take the same mental approach.

Just shows it’s very ingrained culture. Why I wish they would hire more from the outside


It is ingrained in the culture.

Tunch on SNR just now... I'm paraphrasing... talked about the Eagles had to run a wide open aggressive offense vs Patriots in the SB because you have to match the Patriots scoring when you play them, but vs teams like the Browns you do not have to run the offense that way.

Belichick shits on this organization. And please everyone spare me the greatestest everestest argument. Aggressive vs conservative is sports 101.


Right. I believe a good OC with AB doubled and tripled would still take juju and Washington and shred a D. With just those two. Steelers want to establish the run and Ben is always looking for AB when they get behind the chains.

Good OC would get samuels and ridley some touches too.


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 Post subject: Re: Play Action?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:50 am 
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Stairway 2 Seven wrote:
If they dont incorporate play action into this offense and continue using 1 rb for all the plays then this haleyball 2.0.


Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

This is Tomlins offense, his scheme, his style of play.
OC change and we see the same exact things.
Little to no PA.
Single back miss-use.
Inferior vet players getting snaps over better more talent players.
Turtling a big lead.
Running into stacked boxes.
Punting as the safer option deep in Cleveland territory - 2nd and 10 at the Cleveland 38, two runs and a punt from the 34.
Playing it safe in OT with a run into a stacked box and a stretch right run with a running back going on his 30th and 31st carry of game. ( he had 32 carries all of 2017 )
Settling for a 42 yard FG in the rain and wind, on a grass field that saw 68 minutes of tread and wear.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.



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 Post subject: Re: Play Action?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:54 am 
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Stosh 100% on point

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 Post subject: Re: Play Action?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:51 am 
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Kodiak wrote:
RemoAZ wrote:
He can't be the gun slinger he used to be. If he tries, he won't make it to mid season.


I hope that isn't the case, and this is just one of those games Ben has a few times a year.

It's not like he didn't still hold the ball occasionally with Haley. It's just that he got much better at being situationally aware and choosing his spots. The two fumbles was bad situational football. That's a rusty internal clock. The pass to AB was bad situational football, and I think Ben basically admitted wasn't tuned-in to the difference in game speed (a.k.a. lack of reps).

Also, I think it was the Ben/Fitchner show the better part of the second half of last season. So the bedwetting is premature and misguided....I just hope we don't have to suffer thru 6 weeks of it like last year.


Only one was bad. The other the ball was snapped very low. Ben picked it up and went to throw and the defender was there. That’s bad line play, not a bad internal clock.


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 Post subject: Re: Play Action?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:07 pm 
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Zeke5123 wrote:
Kodiak wrote:
RemoAZ wrote:
He can't be the gun slinger he used to be. If he tries, he won't make it to mid season.


I hope that isn't the case, and this is just one of those games Ben has a few times a year.

It's not like he didn't still hold the ball occasionally with Haley. It's just that he got much better at being situationally aware and choosing his spots. The two fumbles was bad situational football. That's a rusty internal clock. The pass to AB was bad situational football, and I think Ben basically admitted wasn't tuned-in to the difference in game speed (a.k.a. lack of reps).

Also, I think it was the Ben/Fitchner show the better part of the second half of last season. So the bedwetting is premature and misguided....I just hope we don't have to suffer thru 6 weeks of it like last year.


Only one was bad. The other the ball was snapped very low. Ben picked it up and went to throw and the defender was there. That’s bad line play, not a bad internal clock.


It’s both. He needed to eat it there...took him a precious couple of seconds to scoop it up.

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 Post subject: Re: Play Action?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:31 pm 
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Clock is to get it out in 3 seconds. Ben was throwing in under 3 seconds from the snap.


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 Post subject: Re: Play Action?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:55 pm 
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Stosh-67 wrote:
Stairway 2 Seven wrote:
If they dont incorporate play action into this offense and continue using 1 rb for all the plays then this haleyball 2.0.


Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

This is Tomlins offense, his scheme, his style of play.
OC change and we see the same exact things.
Little to no PA.
Single back miss-use.
Inferior vet players getting snaps over better more talent players.
Turtling a big lead.
Running into stacked boxes.
Punting as the safer option deep in Cleveland territory - 2nd and 10 at the Cleveland 38, two runs and a punt from the 34.
Playing it safe in OT with a run into a stacked box and a stretch right run with a running back going on his 30th and 31st carry of game. ( he had 32 carries all of 2017 )
Settling for a 42 yard FG in the rain and wind, on a grass field that saw 68 minutes of tread and wear.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.




Yep....got that right.


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 Post subject: Re: Play Action?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:43 pm 
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Orangesteel wrote:
To our resident tape scrubbers (or anyone else keeping track), please remind me, do you recall seeing much of, if any, play action passing routes called against Cleveland? The way they were stacking the box in the second half, you would think it would be ripe for PA calls and hitting the intermediate parts of the field.

Because what I recall seeing actually looked a lot like a Haley called game, sans the QB sneak and about 5-7 less WR screens than Haley would have called (though I don’t recall seeing Tyrod throw too many for the Stains).

Am I off here? Or maybe can we conclude that Ben doesn’t like the PA anymore? Or are we going back to the tremendous amount of rainfall?

We essentially lost the win on a PA pass strip sack FTW

If only you asshats were as positive when the team plays well, that would be something. I’m not exactly on the bandwagon yet, but this place is absurd lately.

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 Post subject: Re: Play Action?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:09 pm 
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What’s absurd are the decisions Tomlin makes. That leads to the “absurdity” here.

It’s stuff like the punt in Cleveland territory up 14. How many yards are even gained on that? 15? 12?

23?

You can end the game with more points there. Oh but Ben might throw another pic? Well, one of his pics was better than a Berry punt in terms of net yards. In other words, a turnover there isn’t much difference than punting.

Oh but on a punt we got the punt coverage. Thought we didn’t live in our fears.

If those chicken shit decisions weren’t being made with regularity there would not be so much bitching about all the other stuff.

It’s football. Shit happens.

A good portion of our shit is entirely self inflicted. We put ourselves in these positions.


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 Post subject: Re: Play Action?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:15 pm 
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And to Stosh, that list is spot on...


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 Post subject: Re: Play Action?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:21 pm 
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I know I’m an asshat, and I do get positive when we win, but that tie was just bizarre. Up 14 with 7 min left and it went as downhill as it possibly could.

It’s Super Bowl or bust this season and until Ben retires. Tying the Browns isn’t on our way.


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 Post subject: Re: Play Action?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:30 pm 
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955876 wrote:
What’s absurd are the decisions Tomlin makes. That leads to the “absurdity” here.

It’s stuff like the punt in Cleveland territory up 14. How many yards are even gained on that? 15? 12?

23?

You can end the game with more points there. Oh but Ben might throw another pic? Well, one of his pics was better than a Berry punt in terms of net yards. In other words, a turnover there isn’t much difference than punting.

Oh but on a punt we got the punt coverage. Thought we didn’t live in our fears.

If those chicken shit decisions weren’t being made with regularity there would not be so much bitching about all the other stuff.

It’s football. Shit happens.

A good portion of our shit is entirely self inflicted. We put ourselves in these positions.


Like I pointed out on Sunday, do you know what made that punt more absurd?

It was the play call on third and ten from the Cleveland 38.

The play call was a run (it gained four yards).

When I saw it was a run, I was thinking "Yay! We're in the pink zone, and the Steelers FINALLY realize the pink zone can be four down territory!"

It was literally the ONLY way a run call there made sense.

Then they punted, and rudely jolted me back into the reality of the team for which I cheer.

:roll: :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Play Action?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:42 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
955876 wrote:
What’s absurd are the decisions Tomlin makes. That leads to the “absurdity” here.

It’s stuff like the punt in Cleveland territory up 14. How many yards are even gained on that? 15? 12?

23?

You can end the game with more points there. Oh but Ben might throw another pic? Well, one of his pics was better than a Berry punt in terms of net yards. In other words, a turnover there isn’t much difference than punting.

Oh but on a punt we got the punt coverage. Thought we didn’t live in our fears.

If those chicken shit decisions weren’t being made with regularity there would not be so much bitching about all the other stuff.

It’s football. Shit happens.

A good portion of our shit is entirely self inflicted. We put ourselves in these positions.


Like I pointed out on Sunday, do you know what made that punt more absurd?

It was the play call on third and ten from the Cleveland 38.

The play call was a run (it gained four yards).

When I saw it was a run, I was thinking "Yay! We're in the pink zone, and the Steelers FINALLY realize the pink zone can be four down territory!"

It was literally the ONLY way a run call there made sense.

Then they punted, and rudely jolted me back into the reality of the team for which I cheer.

:roll: :roll:

Hey...when your punter averages 33 ypp, punting from the 34 is the way to go. Aviators is a freakin football genius.


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 Post subject: Re: Play Action?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:03 pm 
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If it were madden and not pouring rain all day onto a grass/mud field, and the computer ignored that the OL had recently been getting tooled, I'll bet you a computer analysis would have said it was like overwhelmingly in favor of going for it on that 4th down.

Jeemie, you seem like a devoted fan, and that makes you my brother... but sometimes you kill me with your takes that seem to ignore football realities, like blaming any QB for that bad-snap sack. I wonder if you critique your wife with the same certainty of judgment and high standards of accountability. Doing that at home would be one way of understanding that there are contextual factors in every analysis.

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 Post subject: Re: Play Action?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:09 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
If it were madden and not pouring rain all day onto a grass/mud field, and the computer ignored that the OL had recently been getting tooled, I'll bet you a computer analysis would have said it was like overwhelmingly in favor of going for it on that 4th down.

Jeemie, you seem like a devoted fan, and that makes you my brother... but sometimes you kill me with your takes that seem to ignore football realities, like blaming any QB for that bad-snap sack. I wonder if you critique your wife with the same certainty of judgment and high standards of accountability. Doing that at home would be one way of understanding that there are contextual factors in every analysis.


Then why run on 3rd and 10?

That was my point.

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 Post subject: Re: Play Action?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:22 pm 
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Ordinarily, I'd agree with you-- your play choice on 3rd down helps dictate what you do on 4th down... but maybe they thought they'd do better on the run play... maybe they were concerned about pass pro at that moment in the game (warranted based on what happened after that)... maybe they thought: we're up by two TDs, vs a team that hasn't won in close to two years, in a monsoon, on a waterlogged/muddy field, vs a team we've stopped cold all day long, and we can roll some clock on 3rd down and pin them back deep in their end with only about 3 possessions left for them in the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Play Action?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:10 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Ordinarily, I'd agree with you-- your play choice on 3rd down helps dictate what you do on 4th down... but maybe they thought they'd do better on the run play... maybe they were concerned about pass pro at that moment in the game (warranted based on what happened after that)... maybe they thought: we're up by two TDs, vs a team that hasn't won in close to two years, in a monsoon, on a waterlogged/muddy field, vs a team we've stopped cold all day long, and we can roll some clock on 3rd down and pin them back deep in their end with only about 3 possessions left for them in the game.


That's by far an even worse decision. When has turtling that early in the 3rd/4th Quarter...even given the soggy conditions?

That's Tomlin discounting an opponent...that doesn't make me feel better about him.

And this is what we're saying...you can talk about the conditions all you want...so many decisions Tomlin makes...treating the opener as a fifth preseason game because he plays his starting offense together for five minutes in all of preseason...running the wheels off a RB that hasn't had that many carries in a game since college two years ago and who was visibly slowing down...showing no apparent understanding of when to take risks and when to get conservative...running a four minute offense with a quarter and a half left...these all likely feed into the bizarre outcome that is becoming far too frequent when we play bad teams.

No desire to get better...no desire to learn from the past...just a lot of empty catchphrases like "we don't live in our fears" when that's ALL Tomlin does.

I don't know what happened to him...he wasn't like this at the outset of his career.

All I know is it's as frustrating as hell to watch other coaches and teams in this league starting to pass Mike Tomlin and the Steelers by.

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 Post subject: Re: Play Action?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:18 pm 
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I think rpos will be the closest thing to play action that we see. Ben keeps control and he doesnt turn.


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