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 Post subject: Re: Winners & Losers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:07 am 
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SP wrote:
Here is how the RB carry distribution looked by playoff contenders this week, starting back carries and backup rb carries.

Falcon 9-6
Eagles 15-5-5
49ers 12-11
Vikings 16-11
Patriots 18-5-4
Texans 20-8-5
Ravens 13-7-4
Chiefs 16-3
Chargers 15-5
Seahawks 7-7
Broncos 15-15
Panthers 10-7

Steelers 31-0

Teams give about 1/3 of their carries to backups in normal situations. The Steelers went with 0% in a game where the starter took a heavy workload. It’s not like he was going from Le’Veon Bell to Fitz Touissant, he was going from a guy making his first career start to a solid veteran backup.


Because Tomlin.
.
.
Until the wheels fall off
.
.
.
.
.
Such is life in the NFL
.
.


.
.
.
Got red paint, paint your barn red.


Wow. That is so telling.

So we had a worn down RB running into stacked boxes against a fired up and capable defense with a playmaker making plays.

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14 yds Ben to JuJu/12 yds Ben to JuJu/23 yds Ben to JuJu/17 yds Ben to AB/Inc/12 yds Ben to AB/13 yds Ben to Switz//Inc/Inc/TD 3 yds Ben to AB/26 yds Ben to AB/20 yds Ben to JuJu/Inc/TD 20 yds Ben to AB

Up by 4, pull the plug. Fire Mike Tomlin.


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 Post subject: Re: Winners & Losers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:21 am 
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Upon rewatch of the game and looking at some post game charting, James Washington has to get into the lineup quick because Justin Hunter had a real poor outing.

Ben targeted him 5 times and he had one catch for 6 yards. That is a catch percentage of 20, that is not going to get it done. Bryant had a pretty disappointing season last year but at least he caught some 59.5% of his targets but still averaged woeful 12.0 yards per catch.

That outside WR has to stretch the field, has to be more of a threat to open things up, shift some safeties, some coverage. I wonder how long they are going to give Hunter this season as the #3?

I also wish they would feature and target JuJu more, Brown had 16 targets, JuJu had half of that, just 8 targets, but he had 5 catches for 119 yards. I keep harping on this but this offense needs to spread the ball around more, targeting Brown so much may make those that have him on their fantasy team happy, but it does not necessarily make for a productive offense.

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 Post subject: Re: Winners & Losers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:26 am 
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Scunge wrote:
Upon rewatch of the game and looking at some post game charting, James Washington has to get into the lineup quick because Justin Hunter had a real poor outing.

Ben targeted him 5 times and he had one catch for 6 yards. That is a catch percentage of 20, that is not going to get it done. Bryant had a pretty disappointing season last year but at least he caught some 59.5% of his targets but still averaged woeful 12.0 yards per catch.

That outside WR has to stretch the field, has to be more of a threat to open things up, shift some safeties, some coverage. I wonder how long they are going to give Hunter this season as the #3?

I also wish they would feature and target JuJu more, Brown had 16 targets, JuJu had half of that, just 8 targets, but he had 5 catches for 119 yards. I keep harping on this but this offense needs to spread the ball around more, targeting Brown so much may make those that have him on their fantasy team happy, but it does not necessarily make for a productive offense.

Hunter was targeted 5 times for 6 yards. One of those was a Touchdown stolen by the refs on a holding call. The others were not catchable passes thrown to him, am I wrong here?


Last edited by Stallworth16 on Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Winners & Losers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:32 am 
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Where are you getting 6 catches from? He had one catch for 6 yards. One.

The thing about Hunter that I have noticed is that he is a lot like Mike Wallace was, a very narrow catch radius, don't expect him to fight for catches or to be able to contort and reach for catches like say a JuJu.

Washington and what he could do was on display in the preseason, he has JuJu's ability to snatch the ball, to climb the ladder to catch passes, to do combat catches. He also showed the ability to get separation, to get behind the defense. I saw none of that from Hunter against Cleveland.

Again, I get that Ben likes Hunter but then he liked Eli Rogers too, and Rogers turned out to be a bum.

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 Post subject: Re: Winners & Losers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:37 am 
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I’m multi tasking right now. meant 6 yards. Not 6 catches. The point stands. Hunter caught every catchable pass thrown to him, one for a holding TD.


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 Post subject: Re: Winners & Losers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:49 am 
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Sean Davis had a good game.

D didn’t do a good job containing tyrod Taylor. Besides the mess that was turnovers Taylor did too much with his legs, including of course one of their tds.

Truth is steelers under tomlin are just not an intelligent team.


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 Post subject: Re: Winners & Losers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:02 am 
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Stallworth16 wrote:
I’m multi tasking right now. meant 6 yards. Not 6 catches. The point stands. Hunter caught every catchable pass thrown to him, one for a holding TD.



It is all good, don't worry about it Stallworth16. I understand your point but also what is a catchable pass? Were the two TD passes that Washington had in the preseason, you know which ones I am talking about, those probably had no business being caught by James and yet he did anyway. He went up and did a combative catch, took the ball away from the defender.

Some players just have it, are able to fight for catches, are able to make themselves an inviting target, are able to get separation, I did not see any of that from Hunter but saw plenty of that from Washington in the preseason and in college. They need to forget about this experiment with Hunter and get James out there as the #3.

That #3 outside WR, that Bryant/Wallace type is supposed to take the top off of defenses, is supposed to draw away coverages, Hunter did not do that, there was no fear or respect from Cleveland. That has to change, we can't continue with Hunter because Ben likes him, he liked Rogers too, but who ultimately was the better slot WR last season? I just see deja vu with Hunter and Washington, James will take the job sooner or later, but they need to make it sooner, it is crucial to get off to a fast start this season.

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 Post subject: Re: Winners & Losers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:11 am 
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I have been saying Hunter is a 5th or 6th WR for 2 years now.
He has a very limited route tree.
Long and lanky, but not smooth or quick in route.
He is not going to make big catches over the middle.
Has not shown the ability to win contested balls.
Watched him warm up in person at the regular season Jags game last. :(
What a miserable ride home.
Anyway. the 6'-4" 203 # Hunter looked every bit of 190 pounds. And does not have the bulk to win contested deep balls, nor the physical skills to quickly adjust to off target passes.

I said he was a one route guy. And for the most part over the last 2 years, he has been a go route down the right side, route runner.
And whenever he came in the game last year, it was almost certain that Ben had his mind made up before breaking huddle, that the pass play was going to Hunter on a go route down the right sideline.
May speak to more of the simpleness of the coaching, play design and play calling / mentality of the OC and QB.

I was surprised to see Hunter run a little out pattern on the left sideline.

But after the pre-season that Washington had, it was puzzling to see Washington ride the bench and not at least get some shared snaps.

Biggest problem.
Tomlin loves him some Vets.
Loves the veteran players even if its to the detriment of the team.
Will have a roster spot for those guys until its painfully obvious the player can no longer contribute.

I am hopefully assuming that Tomlin is just making Washington earn his dues, damn the team success,
While giving the trusted vet another shot at #3.

After all,
Ju Ju did not get any targets in his first game last year.
But then again, we were only playing the Browns in the opener.
No need to get your best team on the field.

Easing in..........

Thats pre-season, game plan, players, scheme, intensity, best player on the field, etc. etc............

That being said,
Hunter is a capable #4 or #5 WR.
Keep in mind, a #4 and #5 WR are guys that need to be ST players to get a helmet.

But a #4 and #5 can quickly become a #3 WR in a long NFL season.
We do not want to be in a situation where Hunter is taking the majority of snaps at WR #3

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 Post subject: Re: Winners & Losers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:43 am 
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Well said, Stosh, but unfortunately for this Cleveland game Hunter saw I think 61% of the offensive snaps as that 3rd WR? And he had 1 catch for 6 yards?

That is unacceptable.

I will give some love to Marty Bryant, he may have had some games like that too, but there was fear and respect too by the opposing defense. Sometimes the stat sheet doesn't show the complete value of that outside 3rd WR in our offense. If he is able to command double coverage, if a safety has to cheat to his side then it opens things up elsewhere on offense. Justin Hunter is not that type of player to demand that type of attention.

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 Post subject: Re: Winners & Losers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:54 am 
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Havoc wrote:
SP wrote:
Here is how the RB carry distribution looked by playoff contenders this week, starting back carries and backup rb carries.

Falcon 9-6
Eagles 15-5-5
49ers 12-11
Vikings 16-11
Patriots 18-5-4
Texans 20-8-5
Ravens 13-7-4
Chiefs 16-3
Chargers 15-5
Seahawks 7-7
Broncos 15-15
Panthers 10-7

Steelers 31-0

Teams give about 1/3 of their carries to backups in normal situations. The Steelers went with 0% in a game where the starter took a heavy workload. It’s not like he was going from Le’Veon Bell to Fitz Touissant, he was going from a guy making his first career start to a solid veteran backup.


Because Tomlin.
.
.
Until the wheels fall off
.
.
.
.
.
Such is life in the NFL
.
.


.
.
.
Got red paint, paint your barn red.


Wow. That is so telling.

So we had a worn down RB running into stacked boxes against a fired up and capable defense with a playmaker making plays.


In a game full of badness the back rotation might be the single biggest strategic mistake.

I said last week if they pretend Conner is bell it’s a recipe for .500 ball. I fucking knew they’d do it though. I thought we could squeeze by a 5th preseason game vs the browns. But too many coaching and execution errors. RB rotation is biggest in my eyes


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 Post subject: Re: Winners & Losers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:59 am 
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Stosh-67 wrote:
But after the pre-season that Washington had, it was puzzling to see Washington ride the bench and not at least get some shared snaps.


Did he even get a hat? Because with DHB and Switzer it seems like that means either Hunter or Washington don't dress.

Switzer had that bad drop....I don't know, he may be purely a return guy and needs to earn snaps. I'm seeing JuJu rotating between the slot and outside while Switzer and Hunter/Washington share snaps. And I'm not liking that - I want to see Washington and JuJu simply flipping spots.

And lets not forget 2 TE sets.....AB, JuJu and MacDonald with Conner/Bell....and JJ. Brings some different things to the table, and then at other times JJ comes out and you have Washington out there. Love the mix of skill players we have, but remains to be seen how they are utilized.

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 Post subject: Re: Winners & Losers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:39 pm 
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Washington was suited up; on a punt late in the game the ball came very close to hitting his leg as he was engaged with a gunner.


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 Post subject: Re: Winners & Losers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:48 pm 
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Stosh-67 wrote:
I have been saying Hunter is a 5th or 6th WR for 2 years now.
He has a very limited route tree.
Long and lanky, but not smooth or quick in route.
He is not going to make big catches over the middle.
Has not shown the ability to win contested balls.
Watched him warm up in person at the regular season Jags game last. :(
What a miserable ride home.
Anyway. the 6'-4" 203 # Hunter looked every bit of 190 pounds. And does not have the bulk to win contested deep balls, nor the physical skills to quickly adjust to off target passes.

I said he was a one route guy. And for the most part over the last 2 years, he has been a go route down the right side, route runner.
And whenever he came in the game last year, it was almost certain that Ben had his mind made up before breaking huddle, that the pass play was going to Hunter on a go route down the right sideline.
May speak to more of the simpleness of the coaching, play design and play calling / mentality of the OC and QB.

I was surprised to see Hunter run a little out pattern on the left sideline.

But after the pre-season that Washington had, it was puzzling to see Washington ride the bench and not at least get some shared snaps.

Biggest problem.
Tomlin loves him some Vets.
Loves the veteran players even if its to the detriment of the team.
Will have a roster spot for those guys until its painfully obvious the player can no longer contribute.


I am hopefully assuming that Tomlin is just making Washington earn his dues, damn the team success,
While giving the trusted vet another shot at #3.

After all,
Ju Ju did not get any targets in his first game last year.
But then again, we were only playing the Browns in the opener.
No need to get your best team on the field.

Easing in..........

Thats pre-season, game plan, players, scheme, intensity, best player on the field, etc. etc............

That being said,
Hunter is a capable #4 or #5 WR.
Keep in mind, a #4 and #5 WR are guys that need to be ST players to get a helmet.

But a #4 and #5 can quickly become a #3 WR in a long NFL season.
We do not want to be in a situation where Hunter is taking the majority of snaps at WR #3



Jacoby Jones


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 Post subject: Re: Winners & Losers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:30 pm 
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Stallworth16 wrote:
SP wrote:
Here is how the RB carry distribution looked by playoff contenders this week, starting back carries and backup rb carries.

Falcon 9-6
Eagles 15-5-5
49ers 12-11
Vikings 16-11
Patriots 18-5-4
Texans 20-8-5
Ravens 13-7-4
Chiefs 16-3
Chargers 15-5
Seahawks 7-7
Broncos 15-15
Panthers 10-7

Steelers 31-0

Teams give about 1/3 of their carries to backups in normal situations. The Steelers went with 0% in a game where the starter took a heavy workload. It’s not like he was going from Le’Veon Bell to Fitz Touissant, he was going from a guy making his first career start to a solid veteran backup.


Because Tomlin.
.
.
Until the wheels fall off.

Tomlin shortened Willie Parker’s career with this. Bell’s agent just said last week this policy “takes away his future years”. We just watched Conner get run into the ground for his first start. Can someone honestly tell me what is Tomlin’s logic here. Seriously what is he thinking? What’s wrong with fresh legs in the 4th quarter? Or anytime during the game. We are the Only team who does this.

Now I remember the Bus would beat guys up in the 2nd half, they hated tackling him. That’s fair. But the Bus didn’t get 40 touches a game. He was sharing the touches with Erric Pegram and guys like that.


The same damn baffling logic that prevented this team from EVER running a QB sneak on 4th and inches. NO LOGIC. Connor could be leading the league in rushing, averaging 200 ypg and when Bell shows up, he won't see a single carry unless it's mop up duty.

Also, i agree with Scunge. Hunter looks like he has no fight for the ball. None. He has one speed and urgency level and it's on cruise control. Washington is a major upgrade.

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 Post subject: Re: Winners & Losers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:36 pm 
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Guys I agree that Washington fights for the ball better than Hunter. Washington is going to take Hunter’s place soon, as he should. But their are certain guys I just root for and Hunter is one of them. He might look bad on a couple plays but then he will make a great play. I think Hunter is still a good guy to have around for when someone gets injured.


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 Post subject: Re: Winners & Losers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:00 pm 
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Hunter was horrible and Ben was horrible with him. They had absolutely no chemistry together. Real bad. Washington is going to be a huge, huge upgrade.

If Tomlin was being conservative about playing him because of his injury status I guess I can get behind that. Not worth risking something bigger if the lad was not ready. But it's frustrating, real frustrating.

The downgrade from Washington to Hunter was 20 times more severe than any supposed downgrade from LeVeon to Conner.

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 Post subject: Re: Winners & Losers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:09 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
Stosh-67 wrote:
But after the pre-season that Washington had, it was puzzling to see Washington ride the bench and not at least get some shared snaps.


Did he even get a hat? Because with DHB and Switzer it seems like that means either Hunter or Washington don't dress.

Switzer had that bad drop....I don't know, he may be purely a return guy and needs to earn snaps. I'm seeing JuJu rotating between the slot and outside while Switzer and Hunter/Washington share snaps. And I'm not liking that - I want to see Washington and JuJu simply flipping spots.

And lets not forget 2 TE sets.....AB, JuJu and MacDonald with Conner/Bell....and JJ. Brings some different things to the table, and then at other times JJ comes out and you have Washington out there. Love the mix of skill players we have, but remains to be seen how they are utilized.

Washington played 16 snaps, 5 of them on special teams (according to snap counts). No target.


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 Post subject: Re: Winners & Losers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:03 pm 
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hunter is soft as Kleenex. put fucking Washington in. so stupid. spell Conner once in a while . more stupid. and whats wrong with Vince pussy McDonald? cramps or pms? fucking asshole.


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 Post subject: Re: Winners & Losers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:30 pm 
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I don’t what Washington needed to do to earn playing time. The guy was so good in the pre-season that he not only earned himself a roster spot, he earned Josh Dobbs one too.
Play the guy!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Winners & Losers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:50 pm 
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The biggest Gaffe was not giving Conner a break with Ridley total buffone move on week one


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 Post subject: Re: Winners & Losers
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:08 am 
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TB wrote:
Winners:

1. TJ Watt: was a force today. Was physical at the line, brought the thunder several different times today, and was all over the field making plays. NFL.com has him at 4 sacks (I thought it was only three?), 8 tackles, and the game-tying block ( :lol: ) at the end.

2. Bud Dupree: I would have to go back and re-watch, but I thought this was his best game as a pro. Granted, he was going up against a rookie UDFA at LT, so good results should be expected. but he was a hell of a lot more physical today than I can remember.

3. Mike Hilton: Stud. Made a ton of great timely break ups and tackles. What a find this kid is.

4. Jon Bostic: I'm sure the holes in his game will be more visible with time and with a different opponent/weather situation, but this was what he was brought here for.

5. James Conner: I know he didn't finish strong, outside of the one-handed catch on the drive in OT that could have won it, but he stepped up and delivered. Ran hard, especially in the first half, did well in protection, and showed that he's a damn fine capable RB. If Bell sits for a long time we'll be okay. That fumble was tough though, especially since it was such a light hit.

Losers:

1. Mike Tomlin: It goes without saying, but this team was not prepared to execute today and that falls on him. They looked slow, out of sync, had penalties galore, and despite all that found a way to blow a 2 TD lead in the fourth quarter against Tyrod Taylor. As usual with Tomlin, he opted to live in his fears and went ultra-conservative, which was a big reason the Browns were able to get back into the game.

2. Ben Roethlisberger: He had some good moments, but generally he looked like a guy who just rolled out of bed 15 minutes before the game and was playing football for the first time in months. His ball placement was generally awful. He and AB were not on the same page for most of the game (which is to be expected somewhat given AB's injury and Ben's lack of playing in preseason). He looked old and slow, and when the Steelers spread the field his mental processing looked slow, which when you go 5 wide you simply can't hold the ball for as long as he was on some plays. Trying not to overreact considering he looked like this last year for most of the first half of the season, but Haley is gone so you can't use that excuse. Ben may be physically fit, but he does not look like a player who was prepared to play football today.

3. Jesse James: Did a whole lot of nothing, outside of letting a ball go right through his hands for an INT when the Steelers were driving in the first half. Let's pray Vance McDonald can be healthy soon, and for longer than a game or two.

4. Alejandro Villanueva: Sorry FC, your boy got abused by Garrett. Not a game that will go on his highlight film to say the least.

5. Antonio Brown: Didn't look right all game. That had a lot to do with Denzel Ward, who looks to be a fantastic rookie. I'm going to chalk up a lot of his day to coming back from injury and missing the entire preseason. The TD grab was sick though.


BTW.
Nice thread TB.
Can't remember if you did these last year.
But you have my vote for the weekly Winners and Losers thread. lol. write away.

TJ Watt. - Imagine how this board and Steeler Nation would be like this week if TJ Watt did not play this game. Does he not block the kick and we lose? 3-4 sacks. wow. The one sack was a thing of beauty. Double teamed, got knocked out of balance pretty good, stayed on his feet and quickly closed for the sack. Look foward to watching this guy play each week and hopefully for a long time. I can also see older brother joining him in a few years on the down side of his career.

Bud Dupree not the terrible game alot have made it out to be. Here is one difference from last year. He was around the ball, had a sack and was at least more active. Tuff assignment with the scrambling, fast QB's the first two week. I still think he lacks the quick read, recognition and processing of plays that will prevent him from reacting and making the plays his physical stature and abilities says he should.

Mike Hilton Velcro. Sticke-em, Spiderman. Not sure if this guy has a nickname, but love how he is always right on his assignment.

Bostic. Got the one sack that Vince Williams usually blitzes in on. Around the ball with 4 tackles, 5 assists. I said when the picked him up, if he stayed healthy he would lead the Steelers in tackles. But Might the speed of the young Matthew Thomas be a better option vs. Pat Mahomes? Or at least be the week we see him a little bit on defense swapping in and out for both Bostic and Vince..

Connor. We saw the improvements in camp and pre-season. We knew he would have a chance to be successful behind that line and the weapons on offense. The run the wheels off mentality has proven to bite this coach in the ass year after year. The man does not learn, nor does he care to learn and improve on his short comings and ignorance. 31 carries, 36 total touches. Anybody have a snap count? Pretty good shot with hit to the shin. NFL is a long season. RB takes a pounding like no other position. Please give Ridley 5-6 carries. Samuels a pop here and there.

Sean Davis. Pleasant surprise. Looks a bit slimmer and quicker. Had 2 passes defended. Almost a pick.
Guess how many PD were credited to Mike Mitchell for the entire 2017 on Pro Football Reference web site.
Two
2
1 + 1 = 2.


That it.

The losers.
We have seen enough commentary on the bad games by Tomlin, Ben, AV, JJ and AB.
Some warranted, some not so.
I expect all of them to have a better game #2.

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 Post subject: Re: Winners & Losers
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:18 am 
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Does a single reporter have he balls to ask Tomlin why he gave no other backs a single carry?


Vince Williams did not look good to me. Seemed to be a step behind or guessing and guessing wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Winners & Losers
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:20 am 
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Stallworth16 wrote:
Jesse James 3 catches for 60 yds all kept drives going. As far as his blocking, I’d like to hear more opinions because I think his blocking has improved. Outlaw is only 24 years old which is how old Miller was his 2nd season. The interception, he got a fast high pass with a wet ball that he didn’t even get 2 hands on. James is pretty sure handed. That was a very difficult pass for anyone. I think Outlaw is a good player who hasn’t peaked yet.

Justin Hunter. Ok, he didn’t have any drops. Ben was not hitting him. He had a touchdown if not for a holding call. Washington is probably better, but I root for Hunter.

My biggest issue was not giving Ridley carries in the 4th Quarter for a worn out Conner. Conner played a heroic game, but running him till the wheels come off will not help his season. And he was banged up and tired in the 4th. Think about it. Every good NFL team except the Steelers uses backup RB to share the touches.



I'll blame Tomlin and the OC for this stupid fucking shit. Ridley should of had touches. Fucking morons.

The refs on some of those calls were atrocious. I swear every year I lose more gumption to watch the NFL and feel it's rigged. I know I know, foil hat and all.

Fuck, Tomlin and the Randy. Fuck the refs and as SP pointed out, get Washington involved. Ben played like shit too. Reminded me of Favre rifling balls into windows he had no business trying to stick em in. Fucking Browns.

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 Post subject: Re: Winners & Losers
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:25 am 
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R S wrote:
Does a single reporter have he balls to ask Tomlin why he gave no other backs a single carry?

I doubt it because Tomlin answer will ride till the wheels fall off which is moronic especially in a players first NFL start
Vince Williams did not look good to me. Seemed to be a step behind or guessing and guessing wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Winners & Losers
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:04 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:31 pm
Posts: 1285
steelmann58 wrote:
R S wrote:
Does a single reporter have he balls to ask Tomlin why he gave no other backs a single carry?

I doubt it because Tomlin answer will ride till the wheels fall off which is moronic especially in a players first NFL start
Vince Williams did not look good to me. Seemed to be a step behind or guessing and guessing wrong.


There was a video I saw, where a female reporter asked Randy whether they will use a committee or just one back with the absence of Bell. Randy said that Connor was an every down back. I guess Randy has the same philosophy as Tomlin!


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