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 Post subject: Re: Is Shade Tree Going to make the 53?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:26 am 
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Great post Scunge. Let's hope Dunbar can turn the Teddy Bear into a beast.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Shade Tree Going to make the 53?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:27 am 
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Great post Scunge. Let's hope Dunbar can turn the Teddy Bear into a beast.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Shade Tree Going to make the 53?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:16 am 
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Sounds like Dunbar could be a Munchak like hiring on the defensive side of the ball. A lot of positive press thus far about Big Dan and others.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Shade Tree Going to make the 53?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:28 am 
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Jobus Rum wrote:
This is getting to be like the “Bettis is in the best shape of his career”, year after year saga. “Big Dan is really opening eyes in this camp”...yada yada yada...
The guy sucks, soft as a babies behind, cut his ass and get over it.

he was pretty good at the end of last year's camp, as well.

Not to be discounted is the fact that there's a new DL coach in town-- maybe Big Dan responds better to his style of coaching.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Shade Tree Going to make the 53?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:46 am 
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Scunge wrote:
I think that once this season is over there are going to be many, many people scratching their heads going who knew that ALL of our defensive linemen were THIS good!

But of course it will be the same defensive linemen for the most part from last year so what was the difference? Coaching and scheme. I have been calling for John Mitchell to be replaced for years and they finally did it with the hiring of Karl Dunbar. I was calling for them to hire a younger coach with more experience with the modern game, that knew how to get his players to not just be 2-gap run stuffers but fearsome pass rushers. Mitchell I thought had antiquated notions and ideas that were out of touch with today's NFL.

If you don't believe me then how come Cam Heyward went to Tomlin and got his permission/blessing to seek training/coaching on how to be a better pass rusher in the offseason? Why did Cam have to do that? Why didn't Mitchell give him everything he needed coaching-wise? Something was definitely wrong and it was not the players.

The Steelers were on a bit of a roll, drafting very good defensive linemen, investing high draft picks and yet some of them are not developing as they should and I place the blame squarely on the coaching. And the Steelers seem to agree with that as well, as Mitchell was replaced with Dunbar.

So, it does not surprise me that Dan is playing better this camp. I expect Tuitt and Hargrave and Walton to all have elevated games as well. Here is the thing though, why does it have to be an either or situation with Shade Tree and Frazier? Why can't this team carry more defensive linemen this year? Why can't they play more 4-3 looks, have more of a rotation and keep players fresh?

What purpose does it serve to carry a 5th OLB or a 5th ILB, to carry 9-10 linebackers any longer? I can understand when they did that 10 years ago because of the traditional 3-4 defense that we played. But now in 2018? Those 10 linebackers are overkill when this team is transitioning to a more hybrid sub package scheme.

Why can't the defensive roster be 7 defensive linemen, 8 linebackers and 10 defensive backs? In that scenario you carry an extra DL, so both Frazier and Big Dan make the team.

Or they go with 6 defensive linemen, 8 linebackers and 11 defensive backs? In that scenario you carry an extra defensive back who is perhaps a designated hybrid S/LB. Either way you are transforming the makeup of the roster for the new type of defenses that we are going to play.

To simply say they are going to do the customary, typical 6, 9, 10 breakdown of the roster because that is what they have always done rings false to me now in 2018. The game is different, how they want to play defense is different, nothing is set in stone.

This is spot on Scunge. Addition through subtraction with regards to -Mitchell/+Dunbar.

After FA, and their draft this year, I immediately thought of the numbers on Defense. I think they may carry 26 on that side. 6 DL (maybe 7, but I doubt it - instead, I think Big Dan is #6 and Frazier is on the PS, ready to called up when an injury happens), 9 LBs (4 ILB and 5OLB), and 11 DBs (maybe even 12 if they decide on only 8 LBs). Most obvious to me is that I really think 11 DBs make the 53 (injuries withstanding).


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 Post subject: Re: Is Shade Tree Going to make the 53?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:27 pm 
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STs is the driving force for carrying that many LBs

You put Frazier on PS, he practices with the team every week, if someone is lost to injury or if Big Dan doesn't cut it, you sign him to the 53.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Shade Tree Going to make the 53?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:40 pm 
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Yeah, I get that there is this narrative that LBs are needed for special teams, I just don't buy it.

What is better for special teams? A 5th ILB or OLB who is 6'2" 235-240 who runs a 4.75-4.8 40? Or is it better to have a safety who is 6' 215-220 who runs a 4.55-4.60? Or a tall DL with length and reach to block field goals and extra points like Shade Tree? In college Dan had a number of blocked kicks. When Dan is active on gameday why aren't they using him in that capacity? Oh, right, Danny Smith!!

I am not Danny Smith's biggest fan. I know he loves to use Heyward and Tuitt for his special teams but when both of those players are $60 million dollar men and are getting injured it is time to take them off special teams and get Big Dan, and Frazier and other to play special teams. This stuff is not rocket science. Same thing with Brown and JuJu, they need to find replacements for both on returns otherwise both will continue to get these nagging injuries.

Special teams and the way it has shaped the roster has to change.

Also, the argument that the Steelers can just put Frazier on special teams can be turned around and used the other way for those other position groups. Who might be that 5th ILB and/or 5th OLB? You have to think the top 3 ILBs are going to be Williams, Bostic, and Matakevich. The top 3 OLBs should be Watt, Dupree and Chickillo with Kieon Adams as the 4th OLB. So, that is 7 LBers. As I see it there are 3 LBers left and they could probably keep ILB Matthew Thomas as the 4th ILB and then put Adeniyi on the PS as the 5th OLB ready to be called up if there is injury. Then LJ Fort is the odd man out but he has been cut and signed and cut and signed so many times he can just stay home and wait by the phone.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Shade Tree Going to make the 53?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:51 am 
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T.W. wrote:
If he has actually improved why not?

I imagine trying to move a man of his size is a tough task for even the best lineman.


Eh maybe
I played lower level college ball and I was not the strongest TE, but there were guys who I saw across from me that I just assumed by the 3rd play I'd be cut blocking them. But I always gave it a go to try and root them out until I discovered tendencies and such. Seemed like the biggest dudes weren't that difficult- especially tall ones. My anecdotal exp is that once you get their momentum going the way you want it, it's hard for them to reset their base.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Shade Tree Going to make the 53?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:16 am 
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"Shade Tree?" SMH

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 Post subject: Re: Is Shade Tree Going to make the 53?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:30 am 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Jobus Rum wrote:
This is getting to be like the “Bettis is in the best shape of his career”, year after year saga. “Big Dan is really opening eyes in this camp”...yada yada yada...
The guy sucks, soft as a babies behind, cut his ass and get over it.

he was pretty good at the end of last year's camp, as well.

Not to be discounted is the fact that there's a new DL coach in town-- maybe Big Dan responds better to his style of coaching.


More than likely, he's in the honeymoon phase with the new coach. That will end and Dan will go back to giving 75-80% effort.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Shade Tree Going to make the 53?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:41 am 
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Donnie Brasco wrote:
T.W. wrote:
If he has actually improved why not?

I imagine trying to move a man of his size is a tough task for even the best lineman.


Eh maybe
I played lower level college ball and I was not the strongest TE, but there were guys who I saw across from me that I just assumed by the 3rd play I'd be cut blocking them. But I always gave it a go to try and root them out until I discovered tendencies and such. Seemed like the biggest dudes weren't that difficult- especially tall ones. My anecdotal exp is that once you get their momentum going the way you want it, it's hard for them to reset their base.


From my experience, tall guys are usually the easiest to block. Especially lazy tall guys that give poor effort...

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 Post subject: Re: Is Shade Tree Going to make the 53?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:44 am 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
he was pretty good at the end of last year's camp, as well.

Then went on to record one...O-N-E tackle the entire season!

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 Post subject: Re: Is Shade Tree Going to make the 53?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:27 pm 
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Jobus Rum, you do realize that Dan only had 13 defensive snaps for all of 2017? To have 1 tackle in 13 defensive snaps is not that shocking, or necessarily bad, but it also hammers home the point that the 6th DL just does not get much playing time.

You have the top 3, Cam, Tuitt and Hargrave and then Tyson Alualu is the top reserve. Walton was the 5th DL last season and supposedly backup NT and he only had 12 tackles in 144 defensive snaps, AND that only came because of the injuries to Tuitt and Hargrave.

Unless they really do more 4-3 fronts, the 5th and 6th DL roster spots are actually pretty meaningless. All of this hand wringing over Big Dan or Frazier, does it make much of a difference, neither will probably be active on game day.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Shade Tree Going to make the 53?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:21 pm 
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Big Dan's biggest problem is he is the slowest player off the snap. i have yet to see him in any game when he is not the last guy moving.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Shade Tree Going to make the 53?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:12 pm 
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Scunge wrote:
Jobus Rum, you do realize that Dan only had 13 defensive snaps for all of 2017? To have 1 tackle in 13 defensive snaps is not that shocking, or necessarily bad, but it also hammers home the point that the 6th DL just does not get much playing time.

You have the top 3, Cam, Tuitt and Hargrave and then Tyson Alualu is the top reserve. Walton was the 5th DL last season and supposedly backup NT and he only had 12 tackles in 144 defensive snaps, AND that only came because of the injuries to Tuitt and Hargrave.

Unless they really do more 4-3 fronts, the 5th and 6th DL roster spots are actually pretty meaningless. All of this hand wringing over Big Dan or Frazier, does it make much of a difference, neither will probably be active on game day.

Yep, 13 snaps in a season is more damning than one tackle. The guys not good...period.
But hey...he’s having a great camp... :lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Is Shade Tree Going to make the 53?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:13 pm 
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jebrick wrote:
Big Dan's biggest problem is he is the slowest player off the snap. i have yet to see him in any game when he is not the last guy moving.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Shade Tree Going to make the 53?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:01 pm 
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Only having 13 snaps on defense is not necessarily a bad thing for Dan, he was inactive for 11 games last season. He was only activated for 5 games because of injuries.

There is a group of inactives each game, the 6th DL, the 3rd QB, the 5th OLB, the 5th ILB, the 6th WR, etc.

Again, what difference does it make if Shade Tree is that 6th DL? Or if Matthew Thomas is that 5th ILB? Or if Justin Hunter or Damon Patterson is the 6th WR? Of if Stevan Ridley makes it as the 4th RB? None of them are going to be active on game day except for injury.

Honestly, can somebody come up with some examples of a player who was at the bottom of the depth chart, who was a perpetual inactive year after year and then developed into a starter, or a top backup? I am drawing a blank, sure, I guess it has happened before but I just don't put too much thought or pay attention to these bottom dwelling players. They are really interchangeable and the only concern I have is for the Steelers to not keep somebody like a Coty Sensabaugh as the 6th CB when he is making $1.4 million for the season.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Shade Tree Going to make the 53?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:35 pm 
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Scunge wrote:
Honestly, can somebody come up with some examples of a player who was at the bottom of the depth chart, who was a perpetual inactive year after year and then developed into a starter, or a top backup? I am drawing a blank, sure, I guess it has happened before


Wasn't James Harrison cut 3 or 4 times? But I can't think of another Steeler, not recently anyway.


Also agree about the "depth" spots that don't get a hat. I feel like sometimes they are too rigid on that with a guy who barely gets snaps even if someone gets injured. This is a year where I might be looking at how I can carry an extra receiver or running back, rather than sticking to some set quota like 10 LBers......especially if I've got one or two on PS.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Shade Tree Going to make the 53?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:09 pm 
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I think he still makes this team


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 Post subject: Re: Is Shade Tree Going to make the 53?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:25 pm 
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He's getting first team reps at Nose to reward his improved play. Looks like a keeper.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Shade Tree Going to make the 53?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:43 pm 
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Steelergenie wrote:
He's getting first team reps at Nose to reward his improved play. Looks like a keeper.


Or looks like Jason Worilds.....light goes on, or starts making the effort, in a contract year.

Use him if he's motivated. Just beware he probably reverts to being lazy after he gets a deal.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Shade Tree Going to make the 53?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:02 pm 
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Reported that Dunbar wants to use two Noses and rotate them which is positive for Shade Tree.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Shade Tree Going to make the 53?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:58 pm 
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Yes reported that Dundar wants a rotation there


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 Post subject: Re: Is Shade Tree Going to make the 53?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:32 pm 
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Shade tree is McCullers, right?

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